Religious Left?

Vin Ross

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The religious right is a dominant force in politics, but are they correct? Jesus argued some very left wing positions, some could even be considered communist.

"And all who believed were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need." (Acts 2:44-45)
"From each according to their ability, to each according to their need" (Karl Marx, Critique of the Gotha Program)

Any thoughts?
 

alexandriaisburning

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The religious right is a dominant force in politics, but are they correct? Jesus argued some very left wing positions, some could even be considered communist.

"And all who believed were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need." (Acts 2:44-45)
"From each according to their ability, to each according to their need" (Karl Marx, Critique of the Gotha Program)

Any thoughts?

I suspect that most modern, western notions of political structure and economic policy would seem quite alien to Jesus (and those of his time). The thing that right and left wing politics have in common is that they are based on a common set of assumptions, all of which were probably not held by people in the first century, CE.
 
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Sketcher

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If Jesus were arguing for a government policy, the case could be made that he was arguing for left-wing positions. But he was not arguing for a government policy. He did not preach that the government should take money from some people and give it to others. He said that we should freely give to those who are in need. A welfare state does not have anything to do with satisfying his commands, at best. At worst, one only needs to look at the repression and needless starvation that happened in the Soviet Union, China, and North Korea. There is nothing Christian about that.
 
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Received

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If Jesus were arguing for a government policy, the case could be made that he was arguing for left-wing positions. But he was not arguing for a government policy. He did not preach that the government should take money from some people and give it to others. He said that we should freely give to those who are in need. A welfare state does not have anything to do with satisfying his commands, at best. At worst, one only needs to look at the repression and needless starvation that happened in the Soviet Union, China, and North Korea. There is nothing Christian about that.

I don't think he said that either, not in a governmental context. It's written all over the Old Testament that you're supposed to help those in need (e.g., the widow and the orphan), and that Israel's crimes usually came down to this. Does this justify a totalitarian regime? No, not because it's against the Bible but because it's against logic.

But it's hard to argue that it wouldn't justify a democratic one where people are free to stay in a nation that uses the bulk of its treasury to help those in need rather than help CEOs who aren't in need. The government isn't some ineffable force that usurps from the people what's rightfully theirs. It is the people, and any policies passed are part of a social contract. And judging both by its fledgling interest in the welfare state (in contrast to its military state) as well as its fledgling interest in private contributions to the poor (where perversely it's the poorest who give the most in proportion to their income), America isn't cutting it as a Christian nation.
 
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greenguzzi

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I suspect that most modern, western notions of political structure and economic policy would seem quite alien to Jesus (and those of his time). The thing that right and left wing politics have in common is that they are based on a common set of assumptions, all of which were probably not held by people in the first century, CE.
Assuming that your assertion is correct, it is also irrelevant to @Vin Ross's question.

Every generation of Christians has had to deal with new ideas and situations that aren't necessarily directly addressed by the scriptures. That's why we have the Holy Spirit, brains, theologians, and teachers; so we can apply the scriptures to new ideas and new situations. Jesus may well not have been aware of "left wing positions", but that doesn't prevent Him from having espoused them.
 
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greenguzzi

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If Jesus were arguing for a government policy...
Jesus wasn't arguing for anything, He was inviting us to follow Him.

Are you saying that we should ignore our Lord's teaching if we have the opportunity to influence government policy?
Or when we decide for whom we should vote, that we should ignore our Lord's words?
 
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Paidiske

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The religious right is a dominant force in politics, but are they correct? Jesus argued some very left wing positions, some could even be considered communist.

Any thoughts?

As I understand it (and I am not a political expert), classically, "the right" in politics is the conservative end of the spectrum, the end that favours the status quo, and supports those in power in the current situation. In contrast, "the left," is the progressive end, the end which favours social/economic/political change.

To the extent that Jesus calls all of us to repent (and therefore change), all of us to live with more love, more peace, more generosity (etc) than we have done so, I cannot place Jesus on the political right (although I recognise that to place Jesus anywhere on a contemporary political grid is, in fact, quite anachronistic. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that I cannot, as I seek to follow Jesus faithfully and wholeheartedly, place myself on the political right).

This does not mean that I think being a follower of Jesus means I should uncritically endorse every position taken by those in parties which seek change, but simply that being a follower of Jesus means that I seek change, in myself, and in the world, and that therefore a mindset which is open to and desirous of change is a more natural ally than one which sees change as the enemy. Then within that group of people seeking change, we can work together to discern and bring about those changes which seem right and good.
 
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Inkfingers

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I sincerely wish that people would stop using the labels of Left and Right when speaking of politics, as each label now has many contradictions and inconsistencies crammed within them.

For example, is the Right (contrary to opinion) about progress because they favour the market? But hold on, the Right are also supposedly socially conservative and yet the market certainly is no such thing - just look at the influence of inappropriate content channels on television, the demand to decriminalise prostitution and drugs, or the gluttony waste and drunkenness encouraged by business that wants to make as much short term profit as possible. The market drives a bulldozer through conservative social values but apparently both are "right wing"? It makes no sense.

Similarly is the Left (contrary to opinion) about strict control because they favour a strong government? But hold on once more, the Left are supposed to be socially liberal, freeing people from control, but the growth of government does no such thing - instead it spreads like an octopus with its tenticles in all areas of life, spreading its control of people when claiming to be liberating them.

We need to get away from these abstractions because they muddy the water more that they clarify it.
 
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greenguzzi

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I sincerely wish that people would stop using the labels of Left and Right when speaking of politics, as each label now has many contradictions and inconsistencies crammed within them.
The left/right divide is a problem because it ignores so much. Left/right is a spectrum of economic policies. Add to that another dimension: Level of authority. Authoritarianism at one extreme, and libertarianism at the other.

So now we have economics on the x-axis and authority on the y-axis. I am a libertarian socialist, so I am in the bottom left-hand corner. I believe in the fair distribution of wealth and the rule of experts, but I also believe in freedom in most other human pursuits.

There is also a third axis of politics, that of morality. There we have the conservatives and the liberals. In that regard I'm a conservative, although this is strongly informed by my libertarian leaning.

My position isn't important. The point I'm trying to make is that politics not a one-dimensional left/right animal. It has at least three dimensions.
 
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alexandriaisburning

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Assuming that your assertion is correct, it is also irrelevant to @Vin Ross's question.

It's not irrelevant at all. The OP suggested that "Jesus argued some very left wing positions". My reply was suggesting that we cannot uncritically apply modern notions of politics and economic policy upon the Scriptures, just because our immediate rendering of the text "resembles" elements within these systems. As I argued, there are a number of important presuppositions that have to be in place for the meaningfulness of modern political/economic structures to cohere (whether one agrees with them or not). As the philosophical foundations for these systems were probably not extant in Jesus' thinking (nor others of first centure CE), then there is no meaningful sense in which we can say that Jesus argued for "left" or "right" thinking (in these context of what these mean in the modern, western mind).

Every generation of Christians has had to deal with new ideas and situations that aren't necessarily directly addressed by the scriptures.

No argument there.

That's why we have the Holy Spirit, brains, theologians, and teachers; so we can apply the scriptures to new ideas and new situations. Jesus may well not have been aware of "left wing positions", but that doesn't prevent Him from having espoused them.

How can Jesus have espoused "left wing positions" when the necessary philosophical foundations for such positions were not extant? It sounds more like you are imposing your own ideas upon the text, rather than trying to suspend your own assumptions (as well as one can) and think as a person of the first century CE would have thought.

But then again, we all find justifications for our interpretations, don't we :)
 
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Vin Ross

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Maybe I didn't phrase the question well, and I'm aware that the left-right system is incomplete and flawed. It's just that, to me, Jesus seemed very insistent on rich people not getting in to heaven. It's one of the few things that all the gospels are consistent on. He didn't ask the rich young man to give to charity or tithe, he just said to stop being rich and give all his wealth up in order to be saved.
 
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Inkfingers

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Maybe I didn't phrase the question well, and I'm aware that the left-right system is incomplete and flawed. It's just that, to me, Jesus seemed very insistent on rich people not getting in to heaven. It's one of the few things that all the gospels are consistent on. He didn't ask the rich young man to give to charity or tithe, he just said to stop being rich and give all his wealth up in order to be saved.

I think his point was that:
* nobody gets into heaven if they put anything before God (and rich people are likely to trust their money in itself rather than the God upon which all money's power is dependent)
* the Body of Christ is a collective identity not an individualistic one
Using modern labels (Left and Right) to define that is prone to twisting a political agenda rather than a spiritual one.
 
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RDKirk

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The left/right divide is a problem because it ignores so much. Left/right is a spectrum of economic policies. Add to that another dimension: Level of authority. Authoritarianism at one extreme, and libertarianism at the other.

So now we have economics on the x-axis and authority on the y-axis. I am a libertarian socialist, so I am in the bottom left-hand corner. I believe in the fair distribution of wealth and the rule of experts, but I also believe in freedom in most other human pursuits.

There is also a third axis of politics, that of morality. There we have the conservatives and the liberals. In that regard I'm a conservative, although this is strongly informed by my libertarian leaning.

My position isn't important. The point I'm trying to make is that politics not a one-dimensional left/right animal. It has at least three dimensions.

So you have added a Z-axis to the Pournelle 2-Axis political matrix.

Indeed, for Americans the two critical dimensions of political difference are "attitude toward government authority" and "attitude toward social planning (which includes the extent that government controls economics)."
 
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RDKirk

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I think his point was that:
* nobody gets into heaven if they put anything before God (and rich people are likely to trust their money in itself rather than the God upon which all money's power is dependent)
* the Body of Christ is a collective identity not an individualistic one
Using modern labels (Left and Right) to define that is prone to twisting a political agenda rather than a spiritual one.

Yes, and those two are tied together.

Important to note is that the Body of Christ is a collective entity--it is a Body. The apostles didn't misunderstand their time with Jesus when they set up the initial Church as a collective entity in which "they considered all things in common."

Within a Body, it's rather disingenuous to argue that an organ receives resources but is not obligated to operate for the sake of the body. That's what we call a "tumor," or at best a vestigial organ suitable for removal because it's likely to become infected and dangerous to the rest of the Body.
 
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greenguzzi

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It's not irrelevant at all.
Judging by your use of language I suspect that we are pretty much on the same page. But I'll attempt to jump through the hoops anyway.
The OP suggested that "Jesus argued some very left wing positions". My reply was suggesting that we cannot uncritically apply modern notions of politics and economic policy upon the Scriptures
No, but I'd like to take the opportunity of the subject being raised to point out that we can critically apply scripture to modern notions.
How can Jesus have espoused "left wing positions" when the necessary philosophical foundations for such positions were not extant?
Every edifice has a foundation, a beginning. Some have many. Every great idea is expressed before it is realised. So to say that one cannot espouse something that is not extant is false.
It sounds more like you are imposing your own ideas upon the text
I hope not, I try hard not to.
 
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greenguzzi

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Indeed, for Americans [...]
I'm not American, and as much as I try I cannot get my head around USA politics. I will continue to take an interest. But to be frank, my interest in US politics is about the same as my interest in Chinese politics. This is an international section of an international forum. So your comment is noted, but should be kept in context.
 
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greenguzzi

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Maybe I didn't phrase the question well, and I'm aware that the left-right system is incomplete and flawed. It's just that, to me, Jesus seemed very insistent on rich people not getting in to heaven. It's one of the few things that all the gospels are consistent on. He didn't ask the rich young man to give to charity or tithe, he just said to stop being rich and give all his wealth up in order to be saved.
Welcome to the forum by the way, I look forward to hearing more from you.

You seem to have incorrectly conflated left-right with poor-rich. The richest person I know of supported the left-wing UK Labour party all his life.

Left/Right isn't about who is wealthy, it's not even about whether or not wealth gets redistributed. Left and Right is all about HOW wealth gets redistributed.
 
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Norbert L

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The religious right is a dominant force in politics, but are they correct? Jesus argued some very left wing positions, some could even be considered communist.

"And all who believed were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need." (Acts 2:44-45)
"From each according to their ability, to each according to their need" (Karl Marx, Critique of the Gotha Program)

Any thoughts?
Those verses only tell half of the story. A person would need to specifically look at what's being said in Acts 5:4. The whole scenario has a number of lessons, another one being that owning personal property and being responsible for it is also OK with God.
 
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Albion

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The religious right is a dominant force in politics, but are they correct? Jesus argued some very left wing positions, some could even be considered communist.
No, none of Jesus' positions/teachings could honestly be considered communist.

"And all who believed were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need." (Acts 2:44-45)
This was done voluntarily...and for a religious reason. Neither of those holds true when it comes to Karl Marx's teachings. What's more, this is a policy taken up by the early church; it is not an inherent part of Jesus' teachings.
 
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RDKirk

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I'm not American, and as much as I try I cannot get my head around USA politics. I will continue to take an interest. But to be frank, my interest in US politics is about the same as my interest in Chinese politics. This is an international section of an international forum. So your comment is noted, but should be kept in context.

I qualified my statement as "for an American" because those two issues are the issues of American politics, so it's only in that context that I could make that statement.

They may or may not be the issues of Chinese politics, maybe not even for British politics. If you can make that statement for the politics of another country--or can argue that it is, in fact, different for another country, please contribute that point of view.
 
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