Religious Experiences in Altered States

Akita Suggagaki

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Akita Suggagaki

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Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
I don't see meditation in there. I do see most things related to the material realm and ego satisfaction.
 
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I don't see meditation in there. I do see most things related to the material realm and ego satisfaction.
That's the point.

Why would someone want to look inward at themselves and see all of that stuff?
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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That's the point.

Why would someone want to look inward at themselves and see all of that stuff?

Did you see my post on meditation and the brain?

What we are really talking about here is the training of attention
Psalm 37:7
Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him: fret not yourself because of him who prospers in his way, because of the man who brings wicked devices to pass.

We are seeing the benefits in research studies more and more. And really, it is our own intentions and interpretations that determine for us what is spiritual, religious or just good mental hygiene. Anyone can reduce stress simply by paying attention to breath, repeating a word or whatever.

So my interest lately has been in objective meditation brain research.
It is cross cultural, interreligious and universal.
The brain and the mind are tools we can use however we wish, in whatever belief system we have.
And we can sharpen our focus, develop our span of attention.

What science is telling us is that the brain has two basic ways of processing.
One is Egocentric the other is Allocentric or Other centric.
We shift back and forth with our energy to each of these continually.

Egocentric is all that we normally think of as our thoughts, our narrative, our ruminations. It is also referred to as our Default Mode Network. It is our monkey brain. Our rational active processes.

Allocentric is more getting in touch with what we experience, what we feel, what we perceive. And it is more objective, matter of fact, passive.

We sort of teeter totter our mental energy between these two networks of processing all day long. We live in cycles.

When we practice meditation, especially Open Awareness, mindfulness type of meditation we consciously practice Allocentric Processing. We work those neural pathways and reinforce them.

Nothing mystical, diabolical or dangerous. This is the way God created our brains. In the West we are heavily egocentric and out there doing things. In the East they are more Allocentric and passive. What we need is a better balance. If anyone is really interested there are several youtube presentations on the brain and mediation.

It might sound strange, how does focusing within become “Other centered”? Well, we become objective observers of our interior. We no longer identify with what we observe. We let it all come and go. We are present to it but not enmeshed in it. We do not identify with all the thoughts and emotions. We let them go. is that “emptying” ourselves? No, because we are still there keeping vigil. What we are surrendering is activity of the Default Mode Network. But “we” are still there, still alert.

That lowers our stress, lowers our anxiety. It takes us out of our ego dramas and relieves depression.
It relaxes our limbic system, our reptile brain. We become less reactive and we recover more quickly from emotional disturbance.

It is training the brain, training the mind. Is it dangerous? Is learning to play piano dangerous? Is training any skill dangerous?

Is it spiritual? Is it prayer? Well, it depends. Are you seeking God or are you just doing a mental exercise? How do you interpret the results? Did you feel closer to God? Or just closer to your own self? More relaxed and refreshed as a result of your own efforts?
 
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Anyone can reduce stress simply by paying attention to breath, repeating a word or whatever.
Reminds me of this episode of the Homeymooners:


Akita Suggagaki said:
When we practice meditation, especially Open Awareness, mindfulness type of meditation we consciously practice Allocentric Processing. We work those neural pathways and reinforce them.
Do you also join in with others around the world and, at a given time, focus your collective mental energies at a given phenomenon to ... say ... dissipate a hurricane or tornado or violent thunderstorm?
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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Reminds me of this episode of the Homeymooners:


Do you also join in with others around the world and, at a given time, focus your collective mental energies at a given phenomenon to ... say ... dissipate a hurricane or tornado or violent thunderstorm?
Ya, me and Ralph all the time.
 
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Tolworth John

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This is laughable.
There most certainly are naturalistic explanations for the origin of life, the diversity of life, and the origin of the Universe.

Use of blasphemy comes from the religious expecting everyone conform to their unsubstantiated beliefs and behaviors. Christians make all sorts of bad claims about my deities, does that make them real?

No matter how convinced you are in the supernatural, the burden of proof lies on your shoulders to demonstrate its reality since your the one making the positive assertion. No one has that ability.

Naturalistic explanation for the big bang, I look forward to reading your naturalistic explanation for what caused out of nothing everything.

You belief in something, as you accuse Christians of misrepresenting your God.

Yes many people unthinkingly follow family tradition, but that doesn't totally explain why people believe in just about any and everything. The decline of Christianity has not lead to an increased atheism but to an increased believe you are an example of that.
 
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awitch

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Naturalistic explanation for the big bang, I look forward to reading your naturalistic explanation for what caused out of nothing everything.

We don't know. That doesn't necessitate any god. If you want to say it's god, you can, but that god of the gaps is going to get smaller and smaller every time we learn more.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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We don't know. That doesn't necessitate any god. If you want to say it's god, you can, but that god of the gaps is going to get smaller and smaller every time we learn more.
Actually the more we learn, the more we realize how much we do not know.

The gaps grow wider yet more subtle and seem infinite.
 
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awitch

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Actually the more we learn, the more we realize how much we do not know.

The gaps grow wider yet more subtle and seem infinite.

What we know is a drop in the ocean.
Still a terrible idea to point to any god, let alone one in particular, every time we find out more things we don't know.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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What makes you think that?

Here's the challenge:

1 Kings 18:24 And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken.

Elijah is telling them to call for a third party to show up and perform a specific action.

You can't order a pizza, then take LSD and expect the pizza to get here faster.
Baal was a human sacrifice deity, blood sacrifice was apparently common in systems like that.

Since the topic is about altered states, the adrenalyne rush and wooziness from losing blood could trigger a trance like state - giving them the feeling that something was being accomplished.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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There are different types of altered mental states and different ways of reaching those states. Are some religious experiences more authentic than others simply because the mental states differ?

- The prophets of Baal in the Bible apparently cut themselves to enter an altered state.
- American Indians had sweat lodges and so forth.
- European witches used flying ointment.
- Sufis use repetitive dancing and music.
- Eastern Orthodox monks use hesychasm.
- Apparently psilocybin mushrooms appear in some early Christian religious art.
- Near-death-experiences might be classified as altered mental states by skeptics.
- Modern people sometimes use psychedelics to enlighten themselves.
- People practice meditation to enter altered states (among other things).
- Some religious innovators might be considered mentally ill by psychiatrists.
- In Christianity there are fasts and vigils.
- There is the mysterious soma plant.
- ... lots of examples

Your thoughts?
Basically, if it involves controlled substances (herbal or concentrated into a drug) that tends to result in the experience being disregarded as in their head.

If someone has a near death experience, this is an experience only they had, so people need to take their word for it or wait for more evidence that won't be forthcoming.

Fasts can cause a slight chemical imbalance depending in physiology.

Dancing and music results in a hypnotic state, in a hypnotic state the person would speak with themselves represented by some other image or person or being. But it is them.
 
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Since the topic is about altered states, the adrenalyne rush and wooziness from losing blood could trigger a trance like state - giving them the feeling that something was being accomplished.
I doubt all 450 prophets were experiencing the same illusion.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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I doubt all 450 prophets were experiencing the same illusion.
I've heard it said that they used a trick to set the fire, and the contest with Elijah where people watched exposed it for the fraud it was. Since they wouldn't have been able to do a trick like that if people are watching with a low level of technology like that.
 
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AV1611VET

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I've heard it said that they used a trick to set the fire, and the contest with Elijah where people watched exposed it for the fraud it was. Since they wouldn't have been able to do a trick like that if people are watching with a low level of technology like that.
Here's what happened when Elijah prayed:

1 Kings 18:38 Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.

And that's after they poured water all over the sacrifice.

Even Criss Angel couldn't fake that.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Here's what happened when Elijah prayed:

1 Kings 18:38 Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.

And that's after they poured water all over the sacrifice.

Even Criss Angel couldn't fake that.
I think that's why water was poured on it.

So the false prophets could not accuse him of what everyone knew they were doing.
 
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FireDragon76

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My instincts tell me that we should not seek-out a religious experience by intentionally altering our mental state. It seems more humble to wait for God to inspire us when and if he thinks it is appropriate. God can surely inspire a person in any mental state - even an ordinary mental state.

On the other hand, maybe fasting and praying in a freezing stream (for example) is a way to demonstrate our desire for inspiration? Maybe simply quieting our thoughts through meditation or contemplation is a useful altered state?

It really depends on what you mean by altered mental state. If you mean seeing mechanical elves and other planes of existence, like through psychedelics, that's not what meditation is really about, at least according to the type of meditation involved in Zen. It could happen, of course, you might experience those things in meditation, but those experiences are not exclusive to meditation, nor are they the goal.

I can't find a link at the moment, but apparently ancient prophets routinely cut themselves. There was even a saying that went something like "you can tell a prophet by his cuts/scars". Some historians think the cutting associated with the prophets of Baal may have been to reenact some scene in the Baal cycle.

I suspect that the cutting was probably a way to enter an altered state. American Indians cut slices from their forearms as part of their rituals. People with mental illness often cut themselves, because the pain is followed by a good feeling.

People that hurt themselves are so dissociated from themselves that pain is the only thing that grounds them in the immediacy of experience, so it's not analogous. It's not spiritual, it's somebody that needs help.

That is true, but I was also wondering about altered mental states that happen unintentionally. For example, my aunt is very sensitive to medicines and she was given pain medicine in an emergency room which nearly killed her. She said everything turned white and she saw her deceased father there in the room. Was she having an authentic spiritual experience even though it was from a reaction to medicine?

She had a near death experience, which is not uncommon when a person is near death or clinically dead. It's as authentic as any of those experiences can be.
 
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Do we consider a quiet heart an altered state? I guess if we are normally distracted and busy, busy. Is trained attention an altered state?

For a modern American... yes it is.
 
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