Religion v Reason

[Archaeopteryx]

So the biggest problem is that you are contradicting yourself. You want to tell us that a methodology is at the same time unsound and capable of producing evidence with respect to its object. That is, you believe exorcism is unscientific and that its lack of fruit points to the non-existence of demons. This line of reasoning is illogical, as explained above.

The problem here is that you are putting the cart before the horse. The practice of exorcism is premised on a demonological explanation; that is, it is assumed that demons are somehow responsible for the affliction - the mechanism of pathogenesis is demonic and the mechanism of treatment is correspondingly spiritual. Throughout our exchange, I have consistently pointed out that this is yet to be established. Even if you were able to show that exorcism resulted in a favourable treatment outcome in some individuals some of the time (e.g., headache relief), this question about the demonological mechanism you invoke as an explanation would remain.

 

[zippy2006]

And you already conceded that even if exorcism does bear fruit, in that it alleviates certain symptoms (e.g., seizures), it may not be because of the demonological mechanism that exorcists' invoke as an explanation.

No, I haven't.

So there are really two seperate topics at play: (1) whether demonological explanations further our understanding of anything (seizures in our example), and (2) whether exorcism is a "scientific" practice, as you claim.

(1) depends on the fundamentally different beliefs about the supernatural that we hold, and I have never entertained the topic.

Actually, the conversation began with a question: how does positing demons further our understanding of seizures?

No, that topic began a half-dozen posts in.

I'm done here. Everything that needs to be said has been said, and clarifications have been made in the last few posts. From my perspective, this is what I have achieved:

You've claimed not (only) that snow doesn't exist, but that the purported methodologies for addressing the existence of snow are fallacious. I've given you a tool to identify the existence of snow. You've agreed that this tool is capable of identifying the existence of snow given the purported definition of snow.

You then went on to claim that this accurate tool never has and never will demonstrate the existence of snow, because snow doesn't exist. Recognizing that you live in the Egyptian desert, I decided not to try to convince you of the existence of snow. You have the tool, you know it is reliable, and you have the future before you.

When I began this conversation I had no intention of trying to prove the existence of snow to you, and I have done exactly what I intended to do. Good day.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

No, I haven't.

So if a person experiences relief from their symptoms following an exorcism, the explanation must necessarily be demonological? So do you want to discuss the demonological mechanism assumed by the exorcist or not? Or are you content to merely insist that exorcism is a scientific practice, even though it doesn't appear to satisfy any of the relevant standards that medical science applies to diagnostic and treatment practices?

(1) depends on the fundamentally different beliefs about the supernatural that we hold, and I have never entertained the topic.

And yet (1) is fundamental to the question at hand.

No, that topic began a half-dozen posts in.

It began here, in consideration of the broader question above.

I'm done here. Everything that needs to be said has been said, and clarifications have been made in the last few posts. From my perspective, this is what I have achieved:

You've claimed not (only) that snow doesn't exist, but that the purported methodologies for addressing the existence of snow are fallacious. I've given you a tool to identify the existence of snow. You've agreed that this tool is capable of identifying the existence of snow given the purported definition of snow.

You then went on to claim that this accurate tool never has and never will demonstrate the existence of snow, because snow doesn't exist. Recognizing that you live in the Egyptian desert, I decided not to try to convince you of the existence of snow. You have the tool, you know it is reliable, and you have the future before you.

When I began this conversation I had no intention of trying to prove the existence of snow to you, and I have done exactly what I intended to do. Good day.

My response to this can be found here.

 

[Loudmouth]

Exorcists believe demons exist, but the existence or non-existence of demons does not determine whether or not the methodology of exorcism is scientific. This is borne out by the fact that the exorcist is going to perform the same basic method of diagnosis time after time, just like the doctor. Whether or not the cause in question is diagnosed is beside the point of whether the method used is rational and scientific.

A doctor could have a perfectly scientific process for the diagnosis of smallpox, use it thousands of times throughout his life, and never diagnose an actual case of smallpox. Whether or not smallpox exists does not determine whether his method is scientific. (Note that I am not claiming that exorcisms never happen, but am only demonstrating the fact that a premise of a cause's existence is unrelated to the scientific nature of a discipline)

The part you are ignoring is the depth of scientific research that goes into defining the differential diagnostic techniques that doctors use. The method of diagnosis is not the scientific part. The method of diagnosis is the product of scientific research.

There is a ton of research that goes into identifying the cause of diseases. The beginnings of this research was started by Koch who devised several postulates to scientifically identify the cause of the disease:

Koch's postulates are the following:

1. The microorganism must be found in abundance in all organisms suffering from the disease, but should not be found in healthy organisms.
2. The microorganism must be isolated from a diseased organism and grown in pure culture.
3. The cultured microorganism should cause disease when introduced into a healthy organism.
4. The microorganism must be reisolated from the inoculated, diseased experimental host and identified as being identical to the original specific causative agent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch's_postulates

Where are the same research programs for exorcisms? Where do they empirically measure the presence of a demon in a body independent of the disease state?

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

You will not get scientific proof of demonic roots of illnesses.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

You will not get scientific proof of demonic roots of illnesses.

What kind of evidence will you get, if any?

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

What kind of evidence will you get, if any?

Odd things like people screaming out during preaching services, going silent in Jesus' name. After a call can be made for people wanting deliverance, and a group will start screaming at the same time, and access to vocal chords in denied in Jesus' name, they all going silent at once. They are delivered in Jesus' name and testify of new freedom in soul.

Or amidst Indian peasants you meet a notorious woman on a mission and she manifests and speaks English, and is asked how can you speak English? She says she speaks perfect Oxford English. But she is just a peasant.

Or a man being delivered from bondage from the JW Hall, recites the Hail Mary in Latin during deliverance, but never was Catholic...

People's faces contort during deliverance. After a hard breath out or drooling, they are free. So they don't have to steal or fornicate anymore or an allergy is gone. Or they no longer have fits, and this may need a creative miracle with the deliverance.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Odd things like people screaming out during preaching services, going silent in Jesus' name. After a call can be made for people wanting deliverance, and a group will start screaming at the same time, and access to vocal chords in denied in Jesus' name, they all going silent at once. They are delivered in Jesus' name and testify of new freedom in soul.

Or amidst Indian peasants you meet a notorious woman on a mission and she manifests and speaks English, and is asked how can you speak English? She says she speaks perfect Oxford English. But she is just a peasant.

Or a man being delivered from bondage from the JW Hall, recites the Hail Mary in Latin during deliverance, but never was Catholic...

People's faces contort during deliverance. After a hard breath out or drooling, they are free. So they don't have to steal or fornicate anymore or an allergy is gone. Or they no longer have fits, and this may need a creative miracle with the deliverance.

Does the explanation have to be demonic?

 

[The Cadet]

Odd things like people screaming out during preaching services, going silent in Jesus' name. After a call can be made for people wanting deliverance, and a group will start screaming at the same time, and access to vocal chords in denied in Jesus' name, they all going silent at once. They are delivered in Jesus' name and testify of new freedom in soul.

Or amidst Indian peasants you meet a notorious woman on a mission and she manifests and speaks English, and is asked how can you speak English? She says she speaks perfect Oxford English. But she is just a peasant.

Or a man being delivered from bondage from the JW Hall, recites the Hail Mary in Latin during deliverance, but never was Catholic...

People's faces contort during deliverance. After a hard breath out or drooling, they are free. So they don't have to steal or fornicate anymore or an allergy is gone. Or they no longer have fits, and this may need a creative miracle with the deliverance.

Is there any way to quantify this evidence and distinguish it from other potential factors, like what Koch's Postulates do for diseases?

 

[Loudmouth]

You will not get scientific proof of demonic roots of illnesses.

Why not?

 

[Loudmouth]

Odd things like people screaming out during preaching services, going silent in Jesus' name. After a call can be made for people wanting deliverance, and a group will start screaming at the same time, and access to vocal chords in denied in Jesus' name, they all going silent at once. They are delivered in Jesus' name and testify of new freedom in soul.

How did you determine that these things were caused by a demon?

 

[bhsmte]

You will not get scientific proof of demonic roots of illnesses.

I know.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Why not?

Demons are extremely intelligent and don't want us to gain a footing of knowing about them.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

How did you determine that these things were caused by a demon?

The people come for prayer with discerned named problems. The demons respond to Jesus' name. The problems are gone after deliverance. There is a theology from history it conforms with.

 

[The Cadet]

Demons are extremely intelligent and don't want us to gain a footing of knowing about them.

...Then how do you know about them?

The people come for prayer with discerned named problems. The demons respond to Jesus' name. The problems are gone after deliverance. There is a theology from history it conforms with.

Okay, but again:

Is there any way to quantify this evidence and distinguish it from other potential factors, like what Koch's Postulates do for diseases?

Or can we say that if Jesus and prayer don't work, it's not a demon? At what point do we stop trying the "Jesus and prayer" method and move on to, say, thorazine?

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

...Then how do you know about them?



Okay, but again:



Or can we say that if Jesus and prayer don't work, it's not a demon? At what point do we stop trying the "Jesus and prayer" method and move on to, say, thorazine?

A person could be on Thorazine and be delivered and if the Dr is willing, go off meds.

We know about them from faith and around the world things like necromancing or striving for Heaven or Utopia, and glimpsing the other side in death and resuscitation.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

The people come for prayer with discerned named problems. The demons respond to Jesus' name. The problems are gone after deliverance. There is a theology from history it conforms with.

Is the demon responding to Jesus' name, or the person being "delivered" responding to it?

 

[The Cadet]

We know about them from faith

...How do we "know" things through faith? I can have faith in anything I want to, that doesn't make the object of my faith true.

and around the world things like necromancing or striving for Heaven or Utopia, and glimpsing the other side in death and resuscitation.

Well there's a lot of stuff to unpack there... Let's start with an obvious point of contention: do you have evidence of functional necromancy?

A person could be on Thorazine and be delivered and if the Dr is willing, go off meds.

...This... doesn't really happen all that often. :/ Because unlike demonic possession, schizophrenia is a demonstrably real condition, and unlike prayer, thorazine actually has a demonstrable, easily-reproducible effect.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Is the demon responding to Jesus' name, or the person being "delivered" responding to it?

The demon is forced to respond to the finger of God, meaning God's presence, to do a pointed work, a work of power against an entrenched enemy. The person must want deliverance and open themselves to it.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

...How do we "know" things through faith? I can have faith in anything I want to, that doesn't make the object of my faith true.



Well there's a lot of stuff to unpack there... Let's start with an obvious point of contention: do you have evidence of functional necromancy?



...This... doesn't really happen all that often. :/ Because unlike demonic possession, schizophrenia is a demonstrably real condition, and unlike prayer, thorazine actually has a demonstrable, easily-reproducible effect.

The faith in Christ goes back to Genesis and the Gospel accounts of demons are not logical but we have made demonology from it all. Demonology is based on scripture and logic and testimony.

Necromancy is disorder and there are accounts of people tormented with the consequences of this. You can web search them or youtube search them, look for Ouija Board...

Schizophrenics were called "those tormented by unclean spirits". They are healed and testify. Drs are likely to blot out reports because they fear ridicule from peers.

Scientists like Drs are known, we can determine if a surgeon is qualified. We can tell the cause of a pain by his diagnosis and be operated on, pay and get better. Science uses chemistry and insights and understandings... Faith is another system, Christian faith. We don't know the mind exists after bodily death, or that there is a civilization after death in another place, and that there is a God who built it all and maintains it. Even if you experience death and are resuscitated you don't know how you were lucid but can believe an explanation. But to know life after death, Heaven, God and all it's workings, you'd have to spend a year there. It will not happen, or at least, you will not be able to tell anyone down here. But you can be told and believe it, from the Bible and a teacher. Not with proof but with testimonies and knowledge, secret thoughts revealed, testimonies from others coming true for you, experiencing Jesus' blood, anointing, being healed yourself, seeing deliverances...