Religion of the Apostles | with Fr. Stephen De Young

[Pavel Mosko]

The book looks good! It's the only book written in recent times I've looked to get. After moving a year and a half ago from one state to another over 650+ miles And not knowing what my future is where I'm at, I have not unboxed my book library, and am thinking of doing away with traditional books which are a burden if you don't have stable long term housing. But it looks like it is Kindle only as far as Amazon is concerned. Can you read Kindle on a desktop PC? I think you can but I thought it take a special reader..


I was very surprised by the book. I guess after reading a number of western EO authors for nearly 24 years, I tend to think that I already know what they have to say. That they were going to bass most of what they talk about based on one of these 3 sources 1) the Church Fathers, or other 2) Notable EO writers, etc. 3) repeat bits of common shared wisdom of their church folk etc. So I was surprised to learn that this EO priest and writer was getting into studying Second Temple Judaism and relating that to new testament studies. This was something I have gotten into the last few years, but it's been more the province of Protestant and Jewish academics.


Anyway from the video I did learn a few new things on the Trinity. I was pretty sure I knew all that you could learn via the internet on the subject(without buying rare books or going away to some university). e.g. the nature of the original Stoic Trinity, Memra in the Targums, the second temple theory of "Two Powers in Heaven" etc. But in the conversation, I picked up a few new things, and it made me rethink my previous conceptions and assumptions.

Here's a link to the Ancient Faith store and its synopsis and review.
The Religion of the Apostles: Orthodox Christianity in the First Century

 

[Phronema]

But it looks like it is Kindle only? (Can you read Kindle on a desktop PC? I think you can but I thought it take a special reader..

Just a note on the quote above you can read Kindle books with the desktop app for PC, and it's outstanding imo. That said I have a Kindle, and also the Kindle app for the phone, but the desktop app is right up there with a Kindle imo if you don't mind spending time on your PC vs a Kindle, or phone.

As for the rest of the post I can't see the video at the bottom of your post, and I don't know much about that particular book so I can't really comment on it.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Just a note on the quote above you can read Kindle books with the desktop app for PC, and it's outstanding imo. That said I have a Kindle, and also the Kindle app for the phone, but the desktop app is right up there with a Kindle imo if you don't mind spending time on your PC vs a Kindle, or phone.

As for the rest of the post I can't see the video at the bottom of your post, and I don't know much about that particular book so I can't really comment on it.

It seems like the new hot EO book, the video is from Jonathan Pageau , the host of "the Symbolic Mind". Who has become popular on the internet as far as doing a critique of contemporary culture via symbolism. Kind of like Jordan Peterson (who he is a friend of), but Peterson's Christianity is very nebulous, more of a Jungian, while Pageau is dedicated EO congregant, originally a convert from Evangelicalism and an icon carver.

 

[ArmyMatt]

it's on my to-get list

 

[Mary of Bethany]

I have it and have read most of it. I think it is excellent. If you follow his The Whole Counsel of God podcast, or The Lord of Spirits podcast that he does with Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick, then you’ll be familiar with what he writes here. I feel like this is important for us modern Christians to recover this understanding of our place in the spiritual battle going on all around us (and that we are part of) as well as God’s intention for us now and in the world to come.

 

[FenderTL5]

It's on my list also.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I have it and have read most of it. I think it is excellent. If you follow his The Whole Counsel of God podcast, or The Lord of Spirits podcast that he does with Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick, then you’ll be familiar with what he writes here. I feel like this is important for us modern Christians to recover this understanding of our place in the spiritual battle going on all around us (and that we are part of) as well as God’s intention for us now and in the world to come.

OK I got to check that out, I was interested in hearing him talk on the Divine Counsel. That has been one area where the Protestants in this field have been catching up realizing that God is a heavenly King with his own court, and realizing the nature of Elohim pertains to any supernatural being, but is apt at describing thing like the heavenly host etc. And of course what the objective of theosis is all about as far as getting to be part of this in the end.

 

[Melily]

I read it last week and it’s really good.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I'm reading the Book this morning on Amazon Kindle this morning and having a good time, and picking up some nice new info here and there. Good times.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I'm reading the Book this morning on Amazon Kindle this morning and having a good time, and picking up some nice new info here and there. Good times.

nice! anything stick out to you?

 

[Pavel Mosko]

nice! anything stick out to you?

1)For most people the biggest one would be how the Hebrews would have had some hypostatic notions in the the time of the second temple Jewish era. Now that wasn't new to me, reading about second temple Judaism the last few years but he throws out more examples etc. that what I knew about and strengthened that notion. He also gave me a little better idea of a good specific definition of hypostasis.


2) Reading or listening to him you become aware how much of our thinking on the topic is often shaped by later Christian theology, especially terms like "monotheism".


3) Likewise he goes into depth how later Judaism went out of their way to bury the more complex second temple view. Also something I knew about, but added more examples etc.


4) Their are some brand new esoteric stuff that I thought intriguing, I knew a little about Merkava mysticism of older Judaism and was interested in someday learning more about it, to see some kind of Christian connection. But he made an interesting comparison to that and saint Paul's "being caught up in the third heaven" that was very cool and something I want to look into more.


5) Actually the first point he made (my last) was a really good one, especially when it comes to thinking about Saint Paul. If you look at preaching on Paul and his vision/ parousia of Christ on the road to Damascus, quite often it is labelled as "Saul's Conversion." And not just in preaching, but some Bible's like I think the NIV will use header title for that section of the book of Acts. Anyway, that is bad way of looking at it because saint Paul, while having to learn the error of his ways etc. is not really converting ;because, he is not a Pagan etc. He was raised in Judaism, and is learning the real meaning behind some of those prophesy's and mitzah etc.

But it is an interesting point and an important one because the overall theme is the continuation of Tradition via the Church Fathers, etc. of the true Judeo-Christian tradition, rather than more modern notions of things where Christianity is thought of as a "new religion" etc.

 

[ArmyMatt]

1)For most people the biggest one would be how the Hebrews would have had some hypostatic notions in the the time of the second temple Jewish era. Now that wasn't new to me, reading about second temple Judaism the last few years but he throws out more examples etc. that what I knew about and strengthened that notion. He also gave me a little better idea of a good specific definition of hypostasis.


2) Reading or listening to him you become aware how much of our thinking on the topic is often shaped by later Christian theology, especially terms like "monotheism".


3) Likewise he goes into depth how later Judaism went out of their way to bury the more complex second temple view. Also something I knew about, but added more examples etc.


4) Their are some brand new esoteric stuff that I thought intriguing, I knew a little about Merkava mysticism of older Judaism and was interested in someday learning more about it, to see some kind of Christian connection. But he made an interesting comparison to that and saint Paul's "being caught up in the third heaven" that was very cool and something I want to look into more.


5) Actually the first point he made (my last) was a really good one, especially when it comes to thinking about Saint Paul. If you look at preaching on Paul and his vision/ parousia of Christ on the road to Damascus, quite often it is labelled as "Saul's Conversion." And not just in preaching, but some Bible's like I think the NIV will use header title for that section of the book of Acts. Anyway, that is bad way of looking at it because saint Paul, while having to learn the error of his ways etc. is not really converting ;because, he is not a Pagan etc. He was raised in Judaism, and is learning the real meaning behind some of those prophesy's and mitzah etc.

But it is an interesting point and an important one because the overall theme is the continuation of Tradition via the Church Fathers, etc. of the true Judeo-Christian tradition, rather than more modern notions of things where Christianity is thought of as a "new religion" etc.

nice, I am liking it more I find out about it.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I think I'm going to have to recommend folks but the actual physical book from Ancient Faith radio bookstore at the bottom of the OP or their favorite Orthodox book dealer.

I was very happy yesterday reading it immediately on Amazon kindle. But there was this discussion yesterday on another end of the board on the Nephilim and that made me want to take a look at the same priest/authors previous work, called something like "Lord of Spirits" so I spent a few hours listening to an ancient Faith radio podcast on that.


But in doing that, and clicking out of it, I can't find that document again on my account / hard drive / kindle area etc. Which is very frustrating.... I was able to click on a button type link before and immediately load it. At some point, I may have to consult with some customer service FAQ or person. But the kind of hassles like this sort of point out one of a number of good reasons why traditional books are good....

I am however trying to get away from them because of the huge hassle of moving, and for a single person that likes to read, research etc. but otherwise travel lightly books can end up being a large chunk of the stuff you move!

 

[Mary of Bethany]

I had no idea until listening to/reading Fr Stephen’s work that Rabbinic Judaism (what exists since about the 5th century) is so very different than the Judaism of the Scriptures, and how ancient Judaism really is continued in the Church. Not only in our form of worship, which is well known, but in the theology as well, as you mentioned. This has been a real eye opener for me.

And The Lord of Spirits podcasts are well worth your time, as is his The Whole Counsel of God bible study podcasts.

I think I'm going to have to recommend folks but the actual physical book from Ancient Faith radio bookstore at the bottom of the OP or their favorite Orthodox book dealer.

I was very happy yesterday reading it immediately on Amazon kindle. But there was this discussion yesterday on another end of the board on the Nephilim and that made me want to take a look at the same priest/authors previous work, called something like "Lord of Spirits" so I spent a few hours listening to an ancient Faith radio podcast on that.


But in doing that, and clicking out of it, I can't find that document again on my account / hard drive / kindle area etc. Which is very frustrating.... I was able to click on a button type link before and immediately load it. At some point, I may have to consult with some customer service FAQ or person. But the kind of hassles like this sort of point out one of a number of good reasons why traditional books are good....

I am however trying to get away from them because of the huge hassle of moving, and for a single person that likes to read, research etc. but otherwise travel lightly books can end up being a large chunk of the stuff you move!

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Well I solved my Kindle problem so I'm back at being happy again. Essentially, I had to do what I suspected before I bought the book and download a Kindle reader. The sneaky thing is, when you buy the book, Amazon has some kind of program etc. in place so you can read it right away immediately after you buy it, just click a button and it sort of down loads, like a PDF even though it isn't one.

Anyway hopefully this helps other folks who maybe suffer from newbie-itis of not being to familiar with Kindle etc.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I had no idea until listening to/reading Fr Stephen’s work that Rabbinic Judaism (what exists since about the 5th century) is so very different than the Judaism of the Scriptures, and how ancient Judaism really is continued in the Church. Not only in our form of worship, which is well known, but in the theology as well, as you mentioned. This has been a real eye opener for me.

And The Lord of Spirits podcasts are well worth your time, as is his The Whole Counsel of God bible study podcasts.

I was somewhat aware from studying things like the history of Canonization of the Bible, as well as dealing with claims of Messianic Jews where they try to blame various Christian developments like Sunday worship etc. on antiSemiticism, pagan corruption etc.


The counsel of Jamnia for the Jews was a big moment for what we would call "Judaism today". It did a number of big things for the Christ denying version of that Faith.

1)They changed the synagogue liturgy where they cursed the "minim" a term for heretic where if anybody prayed it and believed in Yeshua as messiah they would be anathematizing themselves!


2) The counsel officially closed the Jewish canon and adopted the "short canon" that Protestants use. (Excluding the NT, Deuterocanonicals, etc. ).


3) Began compiling the Talmud, starting with the Mishna (oral Tradition that started a few generations before the birth of Christ).


4) And yes they did begin repudiating a number of the theological theories of second temple times. Most notably "Two Powers in Heaven", their was also a theory of Two Messiahs, And as the author points out the notion of "the body of Yahew" (that he could appear as a parousia). That last part, was a new thing I picked up from that book. They also cursed the day the Septuagint was authorized (believing it to be a primary source for Christian heresy, due to flawed Bible translation, especially regarding the theotokos virgin birth).

Council of Jamnia - Wikipedia


It is kind of a fun fact. While the early rabbinic stuff went away from major Christian doctrines etc. it shared a lot with early Christianity in various little ways. So for instance if you find yourself dealing with a Protestant who is against Apostolic Succession etc. it is kind of cool to know and relate as a side bit of evidence that not only did early Christians on record do that, but the early rabbis had their own version of that they conferred by the laying on of hands.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I had no idea until listening to/reading Fr Stephen’s work that Rabbinic Judaism (what exists since about the 5th century) is so very different than the Judaism of the Scriptures, and how ancient Judaism really is continued in the Church. Not only in our form of worship, which is well known, but in the theology as well, as you mentioned. This has been a real eye opener for me.

Yeah in reading the book again I'm reminded of another example of the legacy of latter Rabbinic Judaism.... It's the irritating habit of Christian copy cats and Messianic Jew's referring to God as G-d, hashem, the name, or Adonai, the Lord, where they never will mention the Divine name out loud.


That sort of thing sort of started in Jesus day where charges of blasphemy could be level at people who used the Divine name/s in any way outside of liturgy, that was a little unusual, especially in controversial ways. But the rabbis pretty much did a way with the invocation of it altogether even in liturgy, as a fence around being able to break the commandment. But this also was a way of fighting Christianity, since Christians followed the older liturgical tradition, and of course used that to proclaim the Divinity of Christ.

 

[Lain Iwakura]

When I went to an online bookstore that I frequent, the book was sold out. Does anyone know anywhere that still has it? (Not Amazon.)

 

[Mary of Bethany]

When I went to an online bookstore that I frequent, the book was sold out. Does anyone know anywhere that still has it? (Not Amazon.)

Have you tried Ancient Faith recently? It was back in stock, unless it has sold out again.

 

[FenderTL5]

Have you tried Ancient Faith recently? It was back in stock, unless it has sold out again.

I ordered it from Ancient Faith this morning.