Religion and Gender

[Poppyseed78]

What has it to do with you what arrangement a couple have agreed on,

The trouble is there are too many busybodies, they think they know what is best for others.

It doesn't matter to me at all. The problem is when two people in a marriage have different expectations and fail to effectively communicate them with each other. So it's better to discuss this stuff honestly prior to marriage.

 

[faroukfarouk]

It doesn't matter to me at all. The problem is when two people in a marriage have different expectations and fail to effectively communicate them with each other. So it's better to discuss this stuff honestly prior to marriage.

My wife and I discussed all sorts of stuff before we actually tied the knot. We really did.

 

[Robban]

It doesn't matter to me at all. The problem is when two people in a marriage have different expectations and fail to effectively communicate them with each other. So it's better to discuss this stuff honestly prior to marriage.

You said men should be pulling their weight at home too.

My brother in law has never done any of the typical housework stuff,
he is only allowed to do painting and decorating, service the car, run errands,
while my sister takes pride in a nice home and making good food for family and guests.

And they have been married for sixty years,
it works for them, maybe not for others.

Marriage is a sphere where the man and woman have their own space,
anyone not invited should not intrude.

 

[Paidiske]

The problem I have with the idea that this is just something for the couple to discuss, is that it supposes that the couple are able to negotiate fairly and equally. What I observe in reality is that often one party to the marriage is, to some extent, manipulated and controlled by the other (for example, the women I talk to - and this is very common - who would like to work more but their husbands refuse to make the adjustments to family life necessary for that to happen).

So when we see a social trend like that, talking about it publicly can be one way to try to make the negotiating field a more level place.

 

[Poppyseed78]

You said men should be pulling their weight at home too.

My brother in law has never done any of the typical housework stuff,
he is only allowed to do painting and decorating, service the car, run errands,
while my sister takes pride in a nice home and making good food for family and guests.

And they have been married for sixty years,
it works for them, maybe not for others.

Marriage is a sphere where the man and woman have their own space,
anyone not invited should not intrude.

I'm glad they were married for 60 years; that's admirable.

I wasn't clear in my original post - I think that couples should do whatever works for them. But if, for instance, a wife asks her husband for help with something, he shouldn't dismiss it out of hand as "not his job," just because he's a man. And vice versa. Helping one another, because you're a team. That's just my opinion. I'm not personally criticizing, or intruding on, anyone's marriage.

 

[Robban]

I'm glad they were married for 60 years; that's admirable.

I wasn't clear in my original post - I think that couples should do whatever works for them. But if, for instance, a wife asks her husband for help with something, he shouldn't dismiss it out of hand as "not his job," just because he's a man. And vice versa. Helping one another, because you're a team. That's just my opinion. I'm not personally criticizing, or intruding on, anyone's marriage.

Or maybe I,m just grumpy,
Absolutely, it should come naturally that they help eachother,
Probably the ideal would be not, "why that" or "why now?"
But, because you want me to.

However when I was married I was hardly allowed in the kitchen,
which did not upset me in any way, she did not have a decent can opener in any case.

 

[Ronald]

... And - here's where this discussion starts - even these traditional religions have sometimes tried to outgrow their cultural baggage, particularly within the last two hundred years.
So - how does your particular religion or denomination address the topic of gender? Are women still expected to be housewives and mothers, first and foremost? Can they serve in clerical roles? Are men treated as superior (whether openly or through the traditional "equal but different"-rationalization), or do partners genuinely enjoy equality?

Christianity is based on the Bible. As someone else said, God gave men and women quite different roles and duties in life. It's clear from beginning in the Garden and throughout history women have been submitted to man and he ruled over her. This was God's purpose, Adam ruled over Eve (Gen.3:16).
The obvious argument lies within God's sovereignty, and how his perfect plan has actually unfolded.
What do we see in history?
Men have been the leaders, rulers of their homes, spiritual leaders as well, the major and minor prophets, the disciples, soldiers, inventors, popes, priests, pastors, builders, hunters and gatherers, etc. If God wanted it any other way, we would see it in history. Maybe some exceptions to the rule existed in certain temporary situations. Women were always our helpers, assistants.
So, women teachers of young children, that's fine. Even Dr. Laura would say that a women cannot teach a boy to be a man! Women pastors over women, fine. Women presidents - NO thank you! Yes, woman can do great things and often excel beyond men in corporations.
The "Women's Lib" movement in our generation has influenced women to leave their place in the home and compete in the world for jobs, striving to be equals with man, sacrificing their roles as mothers. Nurturing children and being a helpmate at home is their best and most valuable occupation and purpose (if marriage and children are involved). Mothers are so valuable to the family as well as fathers, but when either of them are absent, the family suffers in some way.
A very intelligent woman, my girlfriend from long ago, chose to leave me for a journalism career. She got her masters and went all the way to become a Vice President of Fox News. I must mention also that prior to that, she had an abortion - her choice. She didn't want it to interfere with her plans, nor did she want me to either. About eight years later, she wanted to get back with me - I wasn't interested and lost my feelings for her. Later on in life she married a journalist, but was too late in life to have kids. That marriage didn't last. She would have made a great mother, but now she is alone - but hey, she organized the news for us! I think she missed out on the love that you give and receive from a family, from kids that look up to you and call you Mom, kids that are reflections of their parents, kids who teach us so much about ourselves, who teach us how to love unconditionally. She valued a job more than loving relationships.
Some people don't get married and don't have kids. For them, do what you want, but you are missing out on a big part of life. Eunuchs are a special brand of people who can vow celibacy and spend most of their time serving the Lord and others. That is admirable and the world needs people like them, but most of us desire love, marriage and kids.
So in conclusion, look at what functions well in the family. Many would argue that before women got into the workplace in mass numbers, the family was stronger, divorce was lower. Men saw women in the workplace and were tempted, even though they were married and this may have led to more extramarital relationships than before when women stayed home. Devaluing motherhood and fatherhood has led to dysfunctional families, who miss out on the richness that of this close family bond. It's precious and shouldn't be sacrificed.
Finally, on your deathbed, you won't be thinking of all your conquests, achievements, awards, money, or job, you will think of your loved ones, if you have any and then of course, what happens to you now? Life is about relationships - with God and others.

 

[Zoness]

Christianity is based on the Bible. As someone else said, God gave men and women quite different roles and duties in life. It's clear from beginning in the Garden and throughout history women have been submitted to man and he ruled over her. This was God's purpose, Adam ruled over Eve (Gen.3:16).
The obvious argument lies within God's sovereignty, and how his perfect plan has actually unfolded.

Ah yes, all great arguments start by appeals to God.

Men have been the leaders, rulers of their homes, spiritual leaders as well, the major and minor prophets, the disciples, soldiers, inventors, popes, priests, pastors, builders, hunters and gatherers, etc. If God wanted it any other way, we would see it in history. Maybe some exceptions to the rule existed in certain temporary situations. Women were always our helpers, assistants.

Yes I'm sure that's God's plan, men never once used violence to keep women in their place, they just fell into it naturally.

So, women teachers of young children, that's fine. Even Dr. Laura would say that a women cannot teach a boy to be a man! Women pastors over women, fine. Women presidents - NO thank you! Yes, woman can do great things and often excel beyond men in corporations.

How patronizing, "women are fine as long as they stick to weak woman-y stuff"

The "Women's Lib" movement in our generation has influenced women to leave their place in the home and compete in the world for jobs, striving to be equals with man, sacrificing their roles as mothers. Nurturing children and being a helpmate at home is their best and most valuable occupation and purpose (if marriage and children are involved). Mothers are so valuable to the family as well as fathers, but when either of them are absent, the family suffers in some way.

Both parents are equally valuable, plus its not like you can do great on one income America anymore anyways, but women are just as capable of being mothers and having careers. My Mom did it.

A very intelligent woman, my girlfriend from long ago, chose to leave me for a journalism career. She got her masters and went all the way to become a Vice President of Fox News. I must mention also that prior to that, she had an abortion - her choice.

Why is having an abortion relevant?

Later on in life she married a journalist, but was too late in life to have kids. That marriage didn't last. She would have made a great mother, but now she is alone - but hey, she organized the news for us! I think she missed out on the love that you give and receive from a family, from kids that look up to you and call you Mom, kids that are reflections of their parents, kids who teach us so much about ourselves, who teach us how to love unconditionally. She valued a job more than loving relationships.

You're right, I'm sure she was just a bitter husk after all of that. Sounds like a bit of projection here.

Many would argue that before women got into the workplace in mass numbers, the family was stronger, divorce was lower. Men saw women in the workplace and were tempted, even though they were married and this may have led to more extramarital relationships than before when women stayed home. Devaluing motherhood and fatherhood has led to dysfunctional families, who miss out on the richness that of this close family bond. It's precious and shouldn't be sacrificed.
Finally, on your deathbed, you won't be thinking of all your conquests, achievements, awards, money, or job, you will think of your loved ones, if you have any and then of course, what happens to you now? Life is about relationships - with God and others.

Those "many people" would be wrong, the only thing that made the past "better" for moralists was the fact that everyone hid their vices. Divorce was low because in most places in the world, it was basically illegal to divorce and you were a social outcast forever, to be treated like dirt. Gays were hidden away or killed, abuse was tacitly approved of as long as the family stayed together and so on. You have basically no evidence to back up these claims, people have always cheated on their spouses, unloyal people will be unloyal.

On my deathbed, its true that I will probably think about my family, I love them. I'll also think about my friends, people I've met and the impact I had on the world. You make it sound like there's no other form of family fulfillment other than your particularly narrow view of the world.

 

[Ronald]

Ah yes, all great arguments start by appeals to God.

Just stating the Christian view, I didn't contrive it. It was His plan - argue with Him.

Yes I'm sure that's God's plan, men never once used violence to keep women in their place, they just fell into it naturally.

Didn't say all husbands are good.

How patronizing, "women are fine as long as they stick to weak woman-y stuff"

God's plan, not mine.

Both parents are equally valuable, plus its not like you can do great on one income America anymore anyways, but women are just as capable of being mothers and having careers. My Mom did it.

My Mom did it too, but my brother and I were given a key to the house at 7 and 8 years old to come home after school and take care of ourselves until she got home. Not bad, fortunately I didn't get into too much trouble. Her problem was she was too permissive. After my parents divorced (because she didn't want to submit and wanted to be free - as if my father, a complete gentleman and loving husband was some kind of warden), we did what we wanted, not much guidance and saw Dad only once a week - hence, dysfunctional upbringing. She wanted to go to work and she struggled for the rest of her life with stupid jobs and we all suffered for it.
They have done studies about the financial gain of the two income family -- it's practically nothing unless you are each making over six figures. The costs of a second car, clothing, in some cases a nanny or day care, lunch and dinner out on the go because time is limited -- well, you end up with not much and it's not worth it all.

Why is having an abortion relevant?

A woman has an abortion because she is selfish, thinking of her freedom, the restrictive life, responsibility and/or career and plans to excel.

Those "many people" would be wrong, the only thing that made the past "better" for moralists was the fact that everyone hid their vices. Divorce was low because in most places in the world, it was basically illegal to divorce and you were a social outcast forever, to be treated like dirt. Gays were hidden away or killed, abuse was tacitly approved of as long as the family stayed together and so on. You have basically no evidence to back up these claims, people have always cheated on their spouses, unloyal people will be unloyal.

All those things are true but the fact is if women did not work with men, less men and women would cheat because that where they hook up with the opposite sex. They become familiar, work together, friendly and attracted to them.
It's reality. Sure you can cheat with someone outside of the work place. Back then your wife could cheat with milkman or the husband with his secretary - oh, there it is, a women's worst enemy, her husband's sexy looking secretary.

On my deathbed, its true that I will probably think about my family, I love them. I'll also think about my friends, people I've met and the impact I had on the world. You make it sound like there's no other form of family fulfillment other than your particularly narrow view of the world.

"Narrow is the way, few find it." Wide is the path to destruction.

 

[LoAmmi]

God's plan, not mine.

Well, someone's never read Judges and learned about the absolute powerhouse that was Deborah. She was leading Israel and a prophet.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

A woman has an abortion because she is selfish, thinking of her freedom, the restrictive life, responsibility and/or career and plans to excel.

Who on earth are you to judge why a woman has an abortion. Do you know why each and every woman has an abortion? If not, shut up.

All those things are true but the fact is if women did not work with men, less men and women would cheat because that where they hook up with the opposite sex. They become familiar, work together, friendly and attracted to them.

You are painting a rather broad brush there buddy. Just because your parents had issues that led to divorce doesn't instantly make you an authority on male/female relationships.

After my parents divorced (because she didn't want to submit and wanted to be free - as if my father, a complete gentleman and loving husband was some kind of warden), we did what we wanted, not much guidance and saw Dad only once a week - hence, dysfunctional upbringing.

Anecdotal and probably wrong, as seen through the eyes of a child. You don't know what went on behind closed doors.

And...as a woman, an educated woman who has worked with men her entire professional life and NEVER cheated or thought of cheating (although I was smart and waited a good little while before I settled down)...and knowing many other professional women...you are WAY off base here.

I never had children...after trying for a bit, discovered that I would never be able to carry a child to term. My own body kept "aborting" them. So, I have had a very full life without children. Not all women are cut out for reproduction.

I have found, over my life, that men who are all about being uptight at women in the workforce and say the very, very ignorant things they do, only do it for one reason...they are AFRAID...afraid of women, strong women, professional women, women who don't "need" a man, women who refuse to be the little frau in the kitchen stirring pots and pans and popping out babies. It's the 21st century. Come on into reality...the water's fine.

 

[Zoness]

Just stating the Christian view, I didn't contrive it. It was His plan - argue with Him.

There's not really any discussion to have past this since you can just shrug it off and say "hey its what God wants and it has nothing to do with my biases!". Though I would warn you that many Christians don't actually agree with your premises at all.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

God's plan, not mine.

You assume to speak for the Sovereign of the universe? Wow...that takes some serious hubris.

 

[durangodawood]

...God's plan, not mine....

A matter of faith, and not objective fact.

And I have to wonder: did God not plan the current social trend?

 

[Ronald]

Well, someone's never read Judges and learned about the absolute powerhouse that was Deborah. She was leading Israel and a prophet.

Ruth and other are exceptions. Hey, I love Sarah Palin -- an amazing woman and she was a good governor but there are not many women that can juggle a family especially a new born and hold high positions like that. I think she's a great mom though. Michelle Bachman is another but obviously God didn't appoint either one to go further. Margaret Thatcher - exceptional but of course an older woman past child rearing age. Just think God appoints men 99% of the times.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

Ruth and other are exceptions. Hey, I love Sarah Palin -- an amazing woman and she was a good governor but there are not many women that can juggle a family especially a new born and hold high positions like that. I think she's a great mom though. Michelle Bachman is another but obviously God didn't appoint either one to go further. Margaret Thatcher - exceptional but of course an older woman past child rearing age. Just think God appoints men 99% of the times.

Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachman have scrambled eggs for brains...have you ever listened to them?

 

[Ronald]

A matter of faith, and not objective fact.

And I have to wonder: did God not plan the current social trend?

Well, being a seeker, you're gonna wonder about a lot things. Apart from God you can do nothing, not even keep your heart beating. Watch yourself! Apart from God your perspective of the world is blurry and you just don't get the BIG PICTURE. "Did he plan the current social trend ..." NO, he allowed, it's debased and corrupt.

 

[Ronald]

Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachman have scrambled eggs for brains...have you ever listened to them?

So if you are smarter than either of them, why aren't you governor or CEO of a large corporation? What do you do?
I read Sarah book, she's amazing, what a women, with a lucky husband. Michelle held her own during those debates for president. She is a successful Lawyer. Again do you have an advanced position or job - since your brains aren't scrambled???

 

[RedPonyDriver]

Well, being a seeker, you're gonna wonder about a lot things. Apart from God you can do nothing, not even keep your heart beating. Watch yourself! Apart from God your perspective of the world is blurry and you just don't get the BIG PICTURE. "Did he plan the current social trend ..." NO, he allowed, it's debased and corrupt.

That's a lousy argument. Hearts beat due to electrical impulses. God doesn't have some cosmic pacemaker.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

So if you are smarter than either of them, why aren't you governor or CEO of a large corporation? What do you do?
I read Sarah book, she's amazing, what a women, with a lucky husband. Michelle held her own during those debates for president. She is a successful Lawyer. Again do you have an advanced position or job - since your brains aren't scrambled???

I have 2 advanced degrees, owned my own company, made and gave away considerable sums of money. And, Sarah "I can see Russia from my front porch" Palin and Michelle "carbon dioxide is portrayed as harmful. But there isn’t even one study that can be produced that shows that carbon dioxide is a harmful gas.” Bachmann are both unbelievably stupid.

BSME, MSME, PE, MBA, LEED, PMP