Rejected Christ after Salvation?

Have you ever lost your Salvation?

  • yes

  • no


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jseek21

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Did Jesus really pay for ALL the sins of EVERYBODY in the world?

I know that the apparent answer is yes, but I believe that there is more to it than meets the eye. John Gerstner, that delightful reformed theologian, has said on more than one occasion that what we need is a theology of the "second glance." What he means by this is that everything is not always as it seems when we give it our "first glance." First John 2:2 is just such a verse!

If we take the verse at its face value without any qualification it would seem to teach that everyone will be saved. This proves too much! Anyone who is committed to the authority and inerrancy of the Bible knows that hell will have its full quota.

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." Matthew 7:13-14 (NIV)

The purpose in quoting this verse is to show that if only a few are going to be in heaven, then the rest, the many, will be in that place of eternal torment. So, having eliminated this first option, we are left with one of the following:

1. Christ died for some of the sins of all of the people.

2. Christ died for all of the sins of some of the people.
 
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jseek21

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Option #1

How shall we describe this view? Let me wax nostalgic about my past. I grew up in that most scenic of all cities: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. For those who slept through geography, Pittsburgh is located at the confluence (where two rivers come together) of the Allegheny and the Monongahela rivers. These two rivers form the beginning of the Ohio River. The Ohio runs into the Mississippi which runs into the Gulf of Mexico. As a result, with so much water around, there had to be lots of bridges. We ... this is a tale of a particular bridge.

With much seal the City Fathers set out to build a "double-decker" bridge. This bridge would be a delight to the eyes. Their only problem in building this bridge was their math. They failed to have enough funds set aside to finish the construction of the "double-decker" delight. Therefore, as a result of this boondoggle, the city was the proud recipient of a bridge that was only half completed! Pittsburgh, the flower of the central Atlantic states, was now the envy of all the surround cities with its "bridge to nowhere." Here, a remarkable two level bridge stretched out across the river only to find itself but "halfway" across the water.

Such is the picture of Option #1. If Jesus Christ only paid for some of the sins of all of the people then his death on the cross is identical to the "bridge to nowhere." If there exists even one sin that has not really been paid for, then there is no hope. Hell will be the only reward and it shall never end. To have an Atonement that included every last person would indeed be something to behold. But, to have and Atonement that does not include all the sins of everyone would be to have no Atonement at all! It would not simply be a bridge to nowhere, but an Atonement to hell!

But ... our opponents say that the above scenario is not a true picture of how the cross works. They tell us that Jesus did indeed pay for all the sins of all men. But, the payment for sin that he purchased on the cross only becomes effective when we "believe."

The Weak Link of Option #1

The weak link in this view of the cross is the assumption that men are able to believe on their own. This understanding of the Atonement states in no uncertain terms that the cross in and of itself does not determine who is going to believe. But the Scriptures say:

"'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.'" John 6:44 (NIV)

Here the Word of God speaks right to the issue. No one is able to come to Christ on his own. The reason for this is again laid out in Scripture.

"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14 (NIV)

Two reasons given for man's inability to believe are the following:

1. The gospel is "foolishness;" a waste of time. He does not want to believe.

2. He simply cannot understand and respond to the gospel on his own.

Clearly, the Father does not draw everyone to himself. In John 5:44 all those who are drawn by the Father will be raised on the last day. Since no one is able to believe on his own how do we account for the fact that some do indeed believe? The answer is that the Father chooses those to whom he gives saving faith. Since no one wants or deserves this saving faith it must be purchased on the cross by Jesus. Faith is a gift.

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith -- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God -- not by works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV)

Those of you who are "into Greek" might be saying that the pronoun which makes reference to the gift of God, the "this" is in the neuter gender. This is so because "gift" is in the neuter gender, and "this" is referring to something as being a gift of God. The question that bothers some has to do with the fact that faith on the other hand is of the feminine gender. Normally, the noun and the pronoun agree in gender. Since faith is not of the same gender as the "gift" it must not be what the "this" is referring to. Therefore, Ephesians 2:8-9 is not teaching that faith is a gift of God at all. Before you go celebrating let me point out that the only other noun that is in verse 8 that gift could refer to is the word "grace." The gender for grace is also feminine, the same as faith. The only solution that seems to fit with the rest of Scripture is that the gift of God must refer to our "entire" salvation of which faith is a part. Faith is part of that "package deal" of our salvation which our Savior purchased on the cross. Since we have already seen that it is impossible for man to believe on his own it is absolutely necessary that faith be purchased on the cross along with all the rest of our salvation. So to say that Jesus paid for the sins of all, but only those who believe actually get their sins paid for, is in effect saying that no one is going to believe, since no one is able to believe on his own.

Option #2

Did Christ die for all of the sins of some of the people? The Scriptures seem to me to clearly say yes!

"When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption." Hebrews 9:11-12 (NIV)

Here we have the death of our Lord described in no uncertain terms as having actually paid for sins, having purchased our salvation. The only possible scenario that fits this description of the Atonement if Option #2. Jesus actually purchased the entire salvation of all those whom the Father had chosen in eternity past to save by Christ's death on the cross.

"When he had received the drink, Jesus said, 'It is finished.' With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit." John 19:30 (NIV)

With the death of Jesus Christ salvation was infallibly secured. There would be no doubt about it. At the appointed time God, the Holy Spirit would draw the elect to the Savior and give them the faith to believe. Our salvation is by grace from the beginning to end, "so that no one can boast."

The point that I am seeking to make is that everyone has to qualify 1 John 2:2. You either have to add some sort of qualifier in the direction of Jesus paying for the sins of every last person but only potentially, or, you indeed say that Jesus actually paid for sins, but, you make a qualification in the direction of whom the Atonement was intended to save. Everyone believes in a Limited Atonement!
 
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reeann

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10th January 2003 at 04:40 PM Jephunneh said this in Post #1

Has anyone ever trusted the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour and sometime later rejected Him or decided not to trust Him or quit believing?


I have definitely fallen into a category of not trusting God and trusting in myself.  I do not feel this is loss of salvation.  So i had to answer no.  You might want to try a different poll. :)
 
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jseek21

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(The following quotations and Scripture comparisons were taken from John Owen's A Display of Arminianism and modified into the present format. The quotations are all from prominent Arminian theologians living in the 16th and 17th centuries and represent the ideas upon which Arminian theology was developed.)

http://members.aol.com/Graceordained/armquotes.html
 
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reeann

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3rd February 2003 at 05:51 PM new2calvin said this in Post #12

See I have thought about this for awhile and I've come to a conclusion. And it's based on this simple question. Did Christ die for all our sins? The answer of course is yes. So how can we commit a sin that can cause us to lose our salvation. Because if we can then obviously he didn't die for all our sins. Many say he gives us the decision. The only problem with that is if the decision goes against God then it is a sin. Because sin is going against. Since Christ died for all our sins we can never commit a sin that wasn't paid for on the cross.


I think that a child of God can sin.  (1 john: if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves).  A child of God in sin is miserable.  There are not taken from God (romans: nothing can separate us from God), but they are out of fellowship with Him.  He does not; however, stop the CONSEQUENCES of us stepping out of the light and into our own sin.  Plus, we will be judge for EVERYthing will be revealed.  Do you want to look at Jesus one day and say hey, i knew You Lord, but i trusted myself more. *cringes*  I have done that and let me tell you.  Its HARD to confess and come back, its extremely humbling.  Be like sheep and stay close to the Shephard, its for your own good.


Jesus dying on the cross was all that is required to remove our sin.  Remember, though, we are taxed to walk in the light and be the light to the world
 
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Well, I haven't read this entire thread, but just posing a few questions here. =D

Before I say anything, I would like for everyone to know that I am not calvinist nor am I armenianist. =D

Going to Hebrews, it says in many places that the author is speaking to christians, remarks such as "holy brethren", "who have tasted the goodness of the word of god and the power of the age to come", and "remember those days after you recieved the light".

Well, what does it mean when he then continues to say "it is impossible to renew them to repentence", "if we go on sinning willfully, there is no longer a sacrifice for sins", "trampled underfoot the son of God", "but we are not of those who shrink back to destruction..." and etc etc etc...

Its very interesting too since other parts of scripture also sounds fairly similar, like 2nd Peter 2:20, for if they escape the entanglements of this world and are entangled again, then it would've been better that they never have been saved at all... =D

Sorry for haivng not many references. All those verses are mainly from Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10. =D

What are those verses saying? Reading Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10, it does seem pretty strong that you are able to lose your salvation...

PS: I do believe in OSAS. =D
 
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Ok, I just read the last page! =D I believe that Christ's death was power enough to nail all sins to the cross. Romans clearly supports this. =D

Even Calvin, in his later years, admitted to the fact that Christ's death was power enough to clear everyone, but effectively only for the elect.
 
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settergren

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When considering man's ability to "reject" or "nullify" God's salvation, it is interesting to consider also God's omiscience.

God knows everything that will ever happen. God also choose us before the foundation of the world.

If we can "reject" salvation after truly being saved, and God knows that we can and will in fact do so, then what was God doing in the first place by saving us? Why would God allow his son to suffer for people who will end up in hell regardless?!

It is horrible to even think that those whom the blood of Christ has purchased and saved can end up in hell. The bible says that no one can fall out of God's hand. Once we are there, He has a firm hold upon us despite our hold upon him. If we let go of Him, He is still holding on to us. Although we may go through seasons of serious doubt, sin, etc..., if were truly saved, we will be brought to glory.

In Romans 8:30 (verify) it says those whom God foreknew he predestined, those he predestined he called, those he called He justified, and those he justified he glorified.

This is an unbreakable chain of events. The way this was written implies that it will happen. Thus if one of the events ever occurs in one's life, then the rest are sure to follow. This includes Glorification! It makes no sense to be "un"-glorified! Thus, one who is truly saved, will be brought to glory!

Isn't God amazing? This passage puts salvation in His hands alone! Salvation belongs to the Lord! Thank God for that, otherwise we'd all be in Hell.
 
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jseek21

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Christ died for sin, not so that there may be a way for the stopping of sin. He WAS the stopping of sin.

Really it comes down to this: Christ died to forgive sin.

Did He forgive all sin of everyone?
If He did, then wouldn't we all be saved?
Or did He die for all sin of some?
Most people would agree with this. We know that there are only SOME who will be going to heaven and some who will be going to hell.

The better question is who determines that: man or God?

-Dr. Jonathan Morgan
 
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jseek21

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Ephod, I'm not sure which dictionary you are using but this is limited atonement: When faced with chosing to save all, some, or none, God chose to save some.
He would be COMPLETELY just in saving none.
He could save all, yet the Bible says that He does not.
So He saves some. And it is by His mercy. We cannot say to Him, "That isn't fair!" Because once we open that door then truthfully it isn't fair that He saved us. We were sinners. Is that fair?
 
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FOMWatts<><

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Well, one thing I AM sure of. HE died for MY sin! :bow: That's truly all that matters, and and if we see everyone in heaven we will know! To be honest it really matters less and less to me as I read these posts, because this is a completely personal issue, and only man and God can judge their own salvation.

Blessings,

FOMWatts<><

Pray for me, I am physically tired today!
 
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endure

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hi, im not around much anymore, but i wanted to say something,

jseek

i just dont get how you or anyone else thinks and even claim the the bible teaches, that God doesnt want all saved.

you can look at some people not being saved, and draw a conclusion based on something else and say that God must not have wanted them saved.
or you can look at the the bible saying some are chosen, and draw a conclusion that that means some are were never willed to be saved.
or you can ask lots of questions that lead to reasoning and draw a conclusion that says God didnt save everyone.

but as i have said before,
people take what is blurry and create their own theories from it, that seem to clear it up and say its the only truth.

but i simply cannot see how anyone could think he die for all and intend to save all when,
in 1 tim 2.6 it says
(jesus) ....who gave himself a ransom for all.

so Dr. Jonathan Morgan is wrong. he did die for all peoples sins.
his question about why it doesnt make everyone go to heavon need not be answered (it can easily be answered though), but this much is clear from the bible, he died for ALL. and if he died for all, that means he wants all to be saved.

and also in 1 tim 4.10
...God, who is the saviour of ALL men, specially those that believe.

he is the saviour of ALL men, he died for ALL men, and wants ALL men to be saved. but only those that believe can finish this salvation and make it effectual in their lives.

and finally,
2 pet 3.9
the lord is...NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH...

you cant state it much simpler than that, and it really cant mean anything else or be interpreted any other way.
he simply doesnt desire that anyone not go to heavon.

why do you take a scripture that doesnt say God doesnt want all to be saved, but something else, and say it means that. but not look at these scriptures that clearly and plainly do say, he does want all to be saved?
 
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jseek21

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Very true, God does not wish that any perish. God wishes that all be saved, and yet not all are. Where does that leave us?

Fomwatts you speak well. If we are saved, then we are saved. End of story.

Yes I am saved.

Ephod, no dictionary. God created the dictionary. The meaning of that term is that I somewhat think we may be thinking the same thing but using different words.


As for endure, the problem there is synthesis, nothing more and nothing less. If Christ died for everyones sin then we all are saved. If he died for some people then some are saved. There's no gray. there's no, "Christ died for all sins but..." because if He did die for all sins all are saved. Are all saved? Clearly not.

As soon as I have more time I will go into more depth.

-Dr. Jonathan Morgan
 
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endure

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that is not true jseek21,

becuase first of all, you cant say that he wants all to be saved, yet did not die for all to be saved, and second, YOU SIMPLY CANNOT SAY HIS DEATH WASNT FOR ALL BECAUSE THE SCRIPTURE SIMPLY SAYS

"he gave himself a ranson for ALL"

there is nothing else thats true, not that you can conclude from scripture.
his death is being reffered to, and it says this ransom is for ALL, and it also says he is the "SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN".
in his death, was the salvation and ransom of all men. he did die for all.

you cannot take a side road and get around this fact by asking why all arent saved then? that can be easily answered becuase in galations it says we have to make "christ effectual" to our lives, by walking in the spirit.

there being people that arent saved, does not prove that the attonment was limited, becuase scripture clearly states there are things we must do, in order to make his death effectual our lives and other peoples lives.
galations chapter 5.
in the first few verses it says that you can come to a place where "christ profits you nothing" and that he is "of no effect unto you" .
because these people went back to circumsision for salvation.

i want to keep it simple so you dont have any side line issue to get off on, those people did something in their lives, that made&nbsp;the death of Christ uneffectual to them. so you cannot say a person being outside of Christ is proof that he didnt die for all. becuase there are other reasons why a person can be outside of Christ. it doesnt have to be because he didnt die for them.

collosians 1.24
who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, AND FILL UP THAT WHICH IS BEHIND OF THE AFFLICTIONS OF CHRIST in my flesh for his bodies sake, which is the church.

when jesus said "it is finished" he did not mean the entire work of salvation for all people was completed, his part was done, and the provision was finished. but paul said something lacked, there was still work to be done in getting people saved. he rejoiced in his suffering becuase in suffering, he was making the death of Christ effectual to people. Jesus death, didnt do it all, the word still has to be preached and people still have to believe in order for them to be saved. so again, you cannot say the only reason a person isnt saved must that Christ didnt die for them. becuase Christs death didnt do it all.
ill use another scripture to better prove this,

2 cor 1.6
and whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and SALVATION, WHICH IS EFFECTUAL IN THE ENDURING OF THE SAME SUFFERINGS...

again, paul is saying he has to do things, in order to make salvation effectual to them. things like preaching, helping them to believe it, etc.
just becuase Christ died for you, doesnt mean it effects you.

as paul also says in another apostle, that the word of God effectual only when you believe.

also, in john chapter 1, Jesus, is the word of God.
he is the LIGHT, and the bible says this LIGHT
"lighteth everyman that cometh into the world" john 1.9
JESUS is this LIGHT, and the bible JESUS comes to EVERYMAN that comes into the world. so again, you cannot say their are some people that Jesus didnt die for or doesnt come to with hope of saving them.
 
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