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[Mr. M]

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[Monksailor]

Please inform me what you understand exactly to be a divisive man? Jesus was an extremely divisive man.

Jesus told us that He came to bring a sword, not peace; that He came to even turn family members against each other. And His contention with the Pharisees was extremely divisive. He was always talking about sifting the wheat to divide the wheat from the shaft; that He did not want men to be middle-of-the road or fence straddler people playing both fields with a full mixture (lukewarm) but rather fully committed one way or another (hot or cold.)

 

[Mr. M]

Please inform me what you understand exactly

Proverbs 6:
16 These six things the Lord hates,
Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue,
Hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that are swift in running to evil,
19 A false witness who speaks lies,
And one who sows discord among brethren.

Isaiah 5:21. Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

2 Corinthians 3:5, 6. Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think anything as of ourselves;
but our sufficiency is of God; who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant,
not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Ephesians 4:
1 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which
you were called,
2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love,
3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

John 17:11. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee.
Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one,
as we are.

 

[Mr. M]

Jesus told us that He came to bring a sword, not peace; that He came to even turn family members against each other. And His contention with the Pharisees was extremely divisive. He was always talking about sifting the wheat to divide the wheat from the shaft; that He did not want men to be middle-of-the road or fence straddler people playing both fields with a full mixture (lukewarm) but rather fully committed one way or another (hot or cold.

I am aware of these things. Jesus came not to do His own will or speak His own words, but to do the will of His Father. His words were divisive along the lines of who would receive Him and who would reject Him. I would contend that this does not make Him a divisive man, for He died for the sins of the world, He revealed the Father's love to us all.
If you shared the Gospel with your two best friends, one accepted, and you drew closer to him than ever before. The other rejects the gospel and drifts further and further from you. You would be deeply hurt for him and regret his decision and continue to pray for him. This does not make you a divisive man. The Truth divides, chaff or tares, from the wheat. This is the reality of serving the Lord. Homes are divided, we must choose, the Lord over our own mother and father if necessary.

 

[cappycappy]

I get it.
A so-called "Divisive" person is someone who doesn't follow the crowd. Someone who is brave enough to say no, to set boundaries, to state their opinion.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Please inform me what you understand exactly to be a divisive man? Jesus was an extremely divisive man.

Jesus told us that He came to bring a sword, not peace; that He came to even turn family members against each other. And His contention with the Pharisees was extremely divisive. He was always talking about sifting the wheat to divide the wheat from the shaft; that He did not want men to be middle-of-the road or fence straddler people playing both fields with a full mixture (lukewarm) but rather fully committed one way or another (hot or cold.)

I think the "divisive" person being referred to is one who would also be classified as a fool. So this would eliminate Jesus from being a divisive person like the OP is talking about IMHO.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Sometimes, a "divisive" person is one who has recovered lost truths in the Word, in opposition to the accumulation of old errors. Most of the prophets in the Old Testament were divisive, and contrasted sharply with the false prophets who merely tickled ears.

 

[ViaCrucis]

In the context of St. Paul's letter to Titus a "divisive person" is almost certainly referring to a heretic or a schismatic.

Indeed, here is the Greek text of Titus 3:10,

αἱρετικὸν ἄνθρωπον μετὰ μίαν καὶ δευτέραν νουθεσίαν παραιτοῦ

it says "hairetikon anthroponon", "a heretical person".

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Monksailor]

So,

• if a church has serious issues with exclusive social cliques which is against God's will or
  
• there exists a self-serving political structure including the Pastor which is against God's will or
  
• a Pastor erroneously presents God's Word or
  
• a church administration sets up one of Rick Warren's seminars in which in the orientation video by Rick Warren everyone is informed that due to the personal nature of this seminar the study groups will be randomly created out of each person drawing table numbers but the administration is discovered to have "fixed" or steered the drawing by a participant (which is later substantiated by a staff member but new and trying to get established in a role many see as archaic and dying-choir director) and

this one is courageous/"foolish" (by someone's standard) enough and addresses any of these they are not being divisive?

 

[jacks]

I don't think the OP is saying not to address issues, but rather do it in a way that isn't divisive.

One way to disagree through dissension. Defined:
"Disagreement in opinion; especially, violent disagreement which produces warm debate or angry words; contention in words; strife; discord; quarrel; breach of friendship or union".

Another way is taught in the Bible, there are many lessons here on arguing and disagreeing with others. I think much of it can be summed up with Proverbs 15:1 A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.

What we see sometimes are pointless arguments, that only divide and anger us; we should strive to disagree with compassion and understanding. BTW, it is also much more persuasive.

 

[Monksailor]

I don't think the OP is saying not to address issues, but rather do it in a way that isn't divisive.

I do not think that there is any way the above listed items in post #9 could not be addressed without being divisive. No way. The nature of any just resolution would be divisive.

 

[Monksailor]

Jesus came not to do His own will or speak His own words,

Jesus, in doing His Father's will was also doing His will. God is a 3in1 God, TRINITY. Jesus is our Creator and Sustainer. Whenever possible, He would not regard Himself as God even when Pilate and Caiaphas questioned Him when His life was on the line and His final statements were being made He said, "It is as you say I am," in response to a question of His identity as deity, I believe. But that could be taken as a cryptic affirmation of His deity as our God's name is also, "I am." Please pardon the absence of the actual scripture right now to support all of what I speak but I am VERY busy outside and it is either respond w/o looking up each verse or not at all. I will gather all of the scripture in a week or two when I am freed up, if so desired. Additionally, Jesus IS the "WORD made flesh." So not only was He speaking His will identifiably as God but He was the Word Himself..

I would contend that this does not make Him a divisive man, for He died for the sins of the world, He revealed the Father's love to us all.

Jesus told His disciples to curse any town or village which rejected the Gospel in a way which was worse than Sodom and Gomorrah (Matt 10) when He sent them out on their first missionary journey.
Shaking the dust off one's feet in departure in the middle east had that connotation. Even today it is extremely offensive to show the sole of your foot to one in that area, even to sit and cross your leg which shows your sole to them. Additionally, Jesus made a whip and beat and drove people out of the church/temple.

The Truth divides, chaff or tares, from the wheat. This is the reality of serving the Lord. Homes are divided, we must choose, the Lord over our own mother and father if necessary.

Exactly. I am glad you have finally admitted that Jesus was divisive. Jesus in Jn 14:6 tells us that He is the "TRUTH," along with the WAY and the Life. NOT a truth and etc. but "THE TRUTH" and you have said that THE TRUTH divides. Additionally, as you have explained, you know ahead of time that your evangelic words are going to be divisive. Missionaries, due to this reason, risk torture, imprisonment, and death but just like Jesus who also knew, shared the WORD in spite of knowing that they would be an instrument of divisiveness. Jesus told us that the world would hate us if we were a true follower of His. Just our presence instills divisiveness in some places. I must go. I will try to get to your other posts as soon as I can.

 

[Mr. M]

Jesus, in doing His Father's will was also doing His will. God is a 3in1 God, TRINITY. Jesus is our Creator and Sustainer. Whenever possible, He would not regard Himself as God even when Pilate and Caiaphas questioned Him when His life was on the line and His final statements were being made He said, "It is as you say I am," in response to a question of His identity as deity, I believe. But that could be taken as a cryptic affirmation of His deity as our God's name is also, "I am." Please pardon the absence of the actual scripture right now to support all of what I speak but I am VERY busy outside and it is either respond w/o looking up each verse or not at all. I will gather all of the scripture in a week or two when I am freed up, if so desired. Additionally, Jesus IS the "WORD made flesh." So not only was He speaking His will identifiably as God but He was the Word Himself..

Jesus told His disciples to curse any town or village which rejected the Gospel in a way which was worse than Sodom and Gomorrah (Matt 10) when He sent them out on their first missionary journey.
Shaking the dust off one's feet in departure in the middle east had that connotation. Even today it is extremely offensive to show the sole of your foot to one in that area, even to sit and cross your leg which shows your sole to them. Additionally, Jesus made a whip and beat and drove people out of the church/temple.


Exactly. I am glad you have finally admitted that Jesus was divisive. Jesus in Jn 14:6 tells us that He is the "TRUTH," along with the WAY and the Life. NOT a truth and etc. but "THE TRUTH" and you have said that THE TRUTH divides. Additionally, as you have explained, you know ahead of time that your evangelic words are going to be divisive. Missionaries, due to this reason, risk torture, imprisonment, and death but just like Jesus who also knew, shared the WORD in spite of knowing that they would be an instrument of divisiveness. Jesus told us that the world would hate us if we were a true follower of His. Just our presence instills divisiveness in some places. I must go. I will try to get to your other posts as soon as I can.

None of this has anything to do with Paul's instructions to Titus or the OP.
The concern is being divisive among the brethren, in the fellowship of believers.
If you would return to the original post #1, all that you will find is a quote from Paul to Titus, and a prayer for less division among believers. Please stay on topic.

 

[Mr. M]

I am glad you have finally admitted that Jesus was divisive.

I have made no such agreement with you. If you insist on labeling the living embodiment of God's Love as divisive, that is words for you alone to stand on. What I have made clear is that His message is divisive because of the many who reject His Word. That does not diminish His Love for all.

 

[Mari_magdel]

Titus 3:
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope
of eternal life.
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those
who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things
are good and profitable to men.
9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law;
for they are unprofitable and useless.
10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition,
11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.

Heavenly Father, while it is still called Today, may this discussion forum be a place where reasonable people resolve all controversies, not perpetuate them. Let all who hear your voice today not harden their heart, as the rebellion in the wilderness. May the voice of any divisive one be silenced by your Holy Spirit. May your Spirit of Truth preside and prevail. And may your Name alone be glorified. Amen.

HalleluYah. We must each be convinced in our own mind.

 

[Endeavourer]

A divisive person could be absolutely correct in their postulations or doctrine but still divisive within the body of Christ because of their delivery or behavior. I understand Titus' use of the word that was translated as "heretic" is not referencing poor doctrine but poor behavior.

One example might be that if a person feels homosexual actions are wrong, they may feel the Westborough Baptist's church's delivery of the message is equally as wrong, and therefore disfellowship with that church.

I think we get too caught up in worrying about poor doctrines when the early NT church focused far more on loving one another than Calvinism or Dispensationalism or the ontological behaviors of the trinity, etc etc.

I was reading 1 Clement one day, written by a man who was mentored by someone who had labored with Paul when this clicked. The first part of the book was laboring over loving one another...very much in the vein of 1 John. Then I arrived at a chapter where Clement spoke of the phoenix as if he believed the myth were true. This further convinced me that the Bible does not say "By their doctrines ye shall know them".... no, it says "By their FRUITS you shall know them."

 

[Monksailor]

I have made no such agreement with you.

Simple logic dictates that you DID.

If A=B and and B=C then A=C.
Jesus=Truth and Truth=Divisive then Jesus=Divisive.

 

[Monksailor]

None of this has anything to do with Paul's instructions to Titus or the OP.
The concern is being divisive among the brethren, in the fellowship of believers.
If you would return to the original post #1, all that you will find is a quote from Paul to Titus, and a prayer for less division among believers. Please stay on topic.

I was merely responding to your post, sir. YOU brought up Jesus saying he was NOT doing His will but that of the Father. I was and am not off topic.

• The concern or focus is what you gave in your title. That is what a title is for. The focus is "Reject a Divisive Person." You gave scripture but absolutely no additional comment in the OP, consequentially you left it up to whatever the reader interpreted that part of Scripture to be saying from their background and understanding. All you gave to formulate your position was relevant to the very last verse given, "Reject a divisive man (person.)" If you want to have a focused discussion on a topic you need to establish parameters or boundaries from YOUR understanding and position and state them in the OP. You did not do this. The ONLY thing you gave for a topic of discussion was rejecting a divisive person.
• There is NO prayer in this section of Scripture.
• As I read this section of Scripture it is similar to Jesus giving instructions to His disciples in Matt 10 when He sent them out on their first missionary journey and also Proverbs. I read a bunch of advice or instruction in a piece meal relationship. Many separate tips thrown into a group. You apparently read this as all talking about being divisive going by your topic, rejecting a divisive person, and this whole section being offered. Actually, even the preceding verse 9 can only be loosely connected to vs 10. Verse 9 is talking a bout a foolish man and verse 10, a divisive man who could be anything but a fool.

 

[Monksailor]

Tiger, I have no qualms whatsoever with rejecting a destructively divisive person. That IS wise counsel. What I have a problem with is when someone is trying to address an non-biblical or unethical or hurtful practice or incident in a body of believers and they are labeled as divisive in order to get them and what they have to say rejected. I have seen this accomplished more than once in different churches.

This is why I was seemingly defending a "divisive" person. Sometimes a person has to be divisive when they try to deliver the truth. One could chose not to be divisive and bite their tongue or depart as many, fearful of conflict or being identified as a non-conformer or deviant, do. But one with God must take a stand no matter what for the truth and God's honor regardless of how they may be crucified ("deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow me" (Matt 16:24) and the command to all Christians to "expose evil." (Ephes 5:11)) Divisive words CAN have an eventual constructive affect when they cause conviction of evil practice(s) or behavior having been established in a body of believers.

 

[Mr. M]

I was merely responding to your post, sir. YOU brought up Jesus saying he was NOT doing His will but that of the Father. I was and am not off topic.

• The concern or focus is what you gave in your title. That is what a title is for. The focus is "Reject a Divisive Person." You gave scripture but absolutely no additional comment in the OP, consequentially you left it up to whatever the reader interpreted that part of Scripture to be saying from their background and understanding. All you gave to formulate your position was relevant to the very last verse given, "Reject a divisive man (person.)" If you want to have a focused discussion on a topic you need to establish parameters or boundaries from YOUR understanding and position and state them in the OP. You did not do this. The ONLY thing you gave for a topic of discussion was rejecting a divisive person.
• There is NO prayer in this section of Scripture.
• As I read this section of Scripture it is similar to Jesus giving instructions to His disciples in Matt 10 when He sent them out on their first missionary journey and also Proverbs. I read a bunch of advice or instruction in a piece meal relationship. Many separate tips thrown into a group. You apparently read this as all talking about being divisive going by your topic, rejecting a divisive person, and this whole section being offered. Actually, even the preceding verse 9 can only be loosely connected to vs 10. Verse 9 is talking a bout a foolish man and verse 10, a divisive man who could be anything but a fool.

The prayer offered was, of course, my own. I prayed for less division between brethren in Christ. You asked for me to define a divisive person, I posted some scriptures. Consider this one from
Proverbs 6:19 And one who sows discord among brethren.
In response to your request, I make it clear that my understanding is that Paul is advising that a divisive person is disrupting fellowship meetings of the brethren. Therefore, how people react to missionary efforts, the perils of evangelism you mention, and the division created even within a home because of unbelief is not on topic. You asked for the clarification, and then ignored it to continue on attempting to convince me that Jesus was a divisive person. I have already responded to that twice, so I will discuss that no further.

Tiger, I have no qualms whatsoever with rejecting a destructively divisive person. That IS wise counsel. What I have a problem with is when someone is trying to address an non-biblical or unethical or hurtful practice or incident in a body of believers and they are labeled as divisive in order to get them and what they have to say rejected. I have seen this accomplished more than once in different churches.

This is why I was seemingly defending a "divisive" person. Sometimes a person has to be divisive when they try to deliver the truth. One could chose not to be divisive and bite their tongue or depart as many, fearful of conflict or being identified as a non-conformer or deviant, do. But one with God must take a stand no matter what for the truth and God's honor regardless of how they may be crucified ("deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow me" and our call to "expose evil.") Divisive words CAN have an eventual constructive affect when they cause conviction of evil practice(s) or behavior having been established in a body of believers.

I understand the difficulties you are describing here and will include them in the prayers I have already offered up. This is a real problem in the body of Christ. Thank you for sharing that.