Reggae Righteousness: Seeing Ones that are both Messianic Jewish & Rastas for Christ?

Gxg (G²)

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Shalom!!!



For anyone interested, I was writing due to some unique experiences I've been able to go through......as concerning my own West-Indian cultural background, I was blessed to go on a mission trip to the homeland of Jamaica. Been there numerous times before..... but its always a blessing to visit. The last time I went was about 7 years ago.

One of the things that often happens is that one inevitably encounters those who are known as Rastafarians----and though I knew of them/saw them before, I never go to interact much with them. When it came to going down there, I made it a point to study up on the cultural dynamics of Rastafariniasm so I'd be caught up/able to witness. When I came down, our mission trip team worked with an organization known as YWAM Jamaica". We also did extensive work with an organization known as [URL="https://www.facebook.com/FaithLiftersMinistryInternational"]The Faith Lifters Ministry [/URL].. under the leadership of Pastor Peter Dawkins....and it was amazing to see how many times I was called "Rasta" ---both by the believers in Christ we worked with and with the locals as well whom we were seeking to aid. I initially assumed it was due to how I've chosen to grow locks over the past 3 years...but as it turns out, it seems that the term "RASTA" was something used to denote one who is spiritual...wise/godly...and though I used to be oppossed the term, there are many things I'm open to now.


wed_rastafarian.gif



Studying up on Rastafarianism, it was amazing to see not only the differences---but also the commonality between Christians and the Rasta group...and hearing out those who used to be in it/where they come from was a blessing. Some Rastafari choose to classify their movement as Ethiopian Orthodox Christianity, Protestant Christianity, or Judaism..and of those, the ties to the Ethiopian Church are the most widespread, although this is controversial to many Ethiopian clergy. For discussions have raged for ages on those who're Rastafarian and Christian...as many had the Biblical Belief that Jesus was the Messiah...but many in the more "extreme" aspects of camp mistakenly held that Hali Salessi was Christ come back. I was amazed to learn that Haile Selassie, the King of Ethopia, was himself a devout believer in Christ......and one who was intimately connected with the Ethopian Orthodox Church. Whenever it came to others wondering why it was that people said was the Messiah, he'd always reply "I'm a mere man. I will be replaced by the oncoming generation and a human being should not be emulated for a deity.'"

Many who used to be Rastafarians worshipping Hali recognized that instead of worshipping him, they should've been worshipping who he was worshipping. And for the many who claim to be Rastafarians, and as I learned, the term "Rasta" can be used as a means of endearment since the name Rastafari is taken from Ras Tafari, the pre-regnal title of Haile Selassie I, composed of Amharic Ras (literally "Head," an Ethiopian title equivalent to Duke), and Haile Selassie's pre-regnal given name. Being called "Rasta" is many times a way of saying one's spiritual like the Christian Emperor of Ethopia...where the focus is simply upon the lifestyle (i.e. maintaining locks/dreads as a spiritual symbolization like the Nazarite Vows, vegetarian lifestyles, Afrocentrism, Addressing the ways in which European Expansionism/Colonialsim and Imperialism has utilized Christianity as a means of continuning itself/suppressing others, Reggae, etc). .....as opposed to choosing to worship a man who's not Christ.

Even more interesting is the reality of how intimately aspects of Rasta Lifestyles/views are connected with Messianic Judaism---and it has been wild to discover the intriacies of them more so over time. Many of those who are Jews of Color have noted how much it seemed that in being involved with Judaism, the Afro-Centric side of things became more clear....seeing how many in Jewish culture were Black---even though its not acknowleged by many in our own times. Other notable musicians within the Jewish world have noted the same---such as folks like Matisyahu, if anyone has ever heard of his music.


For more info, one can consider going online and looking up articles under the following names:


On a side note, it is amazing to consider the fact that Bob Marley - one of the most famous musicians in the world (especially as it concerns Reggae and Rasta culture) happened to be Jewish. More specifically, it is well known that Bob Marley is biracial and that his father (a White Englishman) had some Jewish background in his him. Marley’s paternal grandmother was possibly a Jewish Syrian Jamaican woman named Ellen Broomfield..as apparently, in a 2003 interview, Michael George Marley revealed “I was told by my mother ,grandmother and uncle, that the Marleys were Syrian Jews that migrated from the Middle East to England and then Jamaica. I did research on the surname that showed this to be true.” (more here). Although I wasn't always aware of it, it just clicked when I found out on it...and I should've picked it up when considering the attribution of Jewish wandering (“Exodus”) or the defiance and prideful yearning for home (“Iron Lion Zion” and “Redemption Song”) in Marley’s songs. Thankfully, Bob Marley became saved later/joined with the Ethiopian Orthodox Church that Haile I. Sellassie was a part of after Haile told other Rastas that they needed to follow Jesus Christ/Yeshua - the Savior HE worshipped instead of worshipping him.

And there are many others similar to him in experience ..all of it showing connections with Rasta culture and Jewish culture (as well as early Christianity) in more ways than one :)

bob_marley-63.jpg


2e5th8j.jpg



And for one pic from a series on what happen if Yeshua came back today and how he'd probably have dreadlocks - as well as others having Yeshua with African/West Indian features, one can consider the following:​







If anyone has any thoughts on the issue, I'd love to hear sometime. What are your thoughts on the issue of Rastafarianism and Judaism? Do you agree or disagree that they are connected/can co-exist? Is it wrong to be considered a "Christian Rasta" or "Jewish Rasta"? Would love to hear sometime...

Shalom :)
 
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Thank you for the well thought out and written post.

I enjoyed these articles very much. While I agree that some Jewish musicians preach a certain kind of righteousness which is commendable I don't think it is righteousness in the Biblical sense...just a thought.

I would like to know more about the orthodoxy of Rastafarianism before I comment too much. I do think it is very important to retain one's culture, and if that religion is a cultural expression of Christian orthodoxy then I think that's great.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Thank you for the well thought out and written post.

I enjoyed these articles very much. While I agree that some Jewish musicians preach a certain kind of righteousness which is commendable I don't think it is righteousness in the Biblical sense...just a thought.

I would like to know more about the orthodoxy of Rastafarianism before I comment too much. I do think it is very important to retain one's culture, and if that religion is a cultural expression of Christian orthodoxy then I think that's great.

Glad to know that the post/thread blessed you....and even more so, that the points the articles brought up were heard. I agree with you that there's a Spirituality/Righteousness done by the muscians that can be beneficial---but not necessarily in the way which fully glorifies the Lord Biblically when the focus is soley upon Him. Its no different than one who says "I don't go to church---but I am spiritual" and they do many GODLY/RIGHTEOUS acts which we as believers should also emulate...but the focus in doing them is not so much upon the person of Christ as it is on simply being "godly"

On "Orthdoxy" of Rastafarianism, ......if desiring more info, One of the best books on the subject is entitled Dread Jesus by William Spencer....





Dread Jesus
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And for some more info on the book--as said best elsewhere:
"Dread Jesus": A New View of the Rastafari Movement

William David Spencer’s Dread Jesus (London: Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge, 1999) is, quite simply, one of the best books by a Christian theologian about a new religious movement. Although Spencer examines primarily different views of Jesus Christ within the Rastafari community, the book is also a comprehensive history of the movement, of its sources, and of the differences between its many contemporary branches. It is also a valuable introduction to reggae music and its connections with the Rastafari community. Spencer, as many Rastafari scholars before him, traces Rastafari back to the Ethiopianist movement and the Universal Negro Improvement Association (UNIA), established in 1914 in Jamaica by Marcus Mosiah Garvey (1887-1940). While Zionists preached the return of Jews to Palestine, Ethiopianists suggested that African Americans should eventually return to Africa (and particularly to the historical heart of Africa, Ethiopia). Spencer reconstructs Ethiopianism as a Christian movement, although an unorthodox one. While Garvey’s image of a "black Christ" was consciously symbolic, other Ethiopianist preachers such as Robert Athyli Rogers (from the Caribbean island of Anguilla), founder of the Afro Athlican Constructive Church, regarded the "black Jesus" as one among many divine incarnations (for Rogers, the most important incarnation of God was Elijah ).

Others, like Prophet Alexander Bedward in Jamaica, claimed to be the new messiah themselves. All this changed on November 2, 1930 when Ras Tafari was crowned as Emperor of Ethiopia as H.I.M. (His Imperial Majesty) Hailé Selassié I (1892-1975). World media covered the event, and most (although not all) Ethiopianists in Jamaica believed that this successor to the line of King Solomon, bearing titles such as "King of Kings" and "Lion of Judah", was indeed the Christ who was to return. Spencer insists on the role played on the foundation of Rastafari religion by three preachers: Leonard Howell, H. Archibald Dunkley, and Joseph Nathaniel Hibbert.

As far as Dunkley and Hibbert are concerned, he insists on their membership in the Great Ancient Brotherhood of Silence, or Ancient Mystic Order of Ethiopia, one of the "black" (or "Prince Hall") Masonic organizations. Spencer claims that a number of features of Rastafari religion derive from this branch of Freemasonry (including the name "Jah" for "God", coming from the Masonic form "Jah-Bul-On"). Later Rastafari leaders and authors, such as Dennis Forsythe, were in turn influenced, according to Spencer, by the Rosicrucian order AMORC. Rastafari is, thus, a syncretistic faith including elements from the Western esoteric and occult tradition, Christianity, and Jamaican and Caribbean lore (including the trademark Rastafari dreadlocks, and the use of ganja). Spencer also re-examines the well-known story of Selassié’s visit to Jamaica in 1966, his denial to be God or the return of Christ, and his attempt to lead Rastafarians into the Ethiopian Orthodox Church (with only moderate success). He also examines the peculiar role of reggae singer Bob Marley (1945-1981) in the development of Rastafarian thought (an extreme fringe even believes Marley, rather than Selassié, to be the messiah). The most important part of Spencer’s book deals with Rastafari reactions to the Marxist revolution in Ethiopia, and the following imprisonment and eventual death of Selassié in 1975. While, in the immediate aftermath of these events , Selassié’s death was explained away as yet another "big lie" by the world media, gradually most Rastafarians recognized that His Imperial Majesty will not physically reappear any time soon.

What happened, according to Spencer, was the separation of elements whose coexistence within the Rastafari community had always been difficult. While only a handful of Rastafarians followed Selassié’s counsel and joined the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, a significant number (whose main international organization is the Twelve Tribes of Israel) adopted a more explicitly Christian approach, recognizing Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Selassié as a mere human (if all-important) prophet. Their Christ remains a "black Christ" within the frame of contemporary black or Africanist theology. As a reaction, an anti-Christian movement, the "bun Christ" (or "burn Christ") movement, manifested itself, particularly at certain reggae events. Rastafari has always been anti-Catholic (because it accuses the Catholic Church of having supported Mussolini’s invasion of Ethiopia, seen as the ultimate sacrilege). Some contemporary Rastafarians are also anti-Christian, although many would qualify even the most extreme "burn Christ" statements by claiming that their quarrel is with the "white Christ" in whose name racist crimes have been perpetrated, not with a liberated "black Christ". There is little doubt, however, that one branch of Rastafari has followed the Eastern linings of one of the "founders", Leonard Howell, and has adopted a mystical view of Selassié’s soul as an entity quite independent from the Emperor’s physical manifestation. A portion of this divine spark or essence, eminently manifested in Selassié, is present in all Rastafari faithful, if not in all human beings, within the framework of a sort of gnostic pantheism true to the occult-esoteric connections of some of the "founders".

Rastafari, Spencer concludes, is at a crossroad, between Selassié as God (re-interpreted after the Emperor’s death in a pantheistic and gnostic sense) and "the God of Selassié", i.e. Jesus Christ. In the latter sense, Rastafari, or a branch of it, may eventually become a "Selassian" Christian Church, no less Christian for its veneration of Selassié as a prophet and a saint (just, Spencer notes, as there is a "Lutheran" Church, named after Martin Luther but certainly not claiming that he was the messiah). At any rate, Spencer takes seriously Rastafari as potential (and, at least in some cases, actual) "roots Christianity" of what he calls with the politically correct name of two-thirds world. While liberation theology has been too often a theoretical construct of Western intellectuals, movements such as Rastafari are a much more reliable indicator of the real feelings and spiritual needs of Caribbean and other two-thirds world spiritual seekers. In this perspective, Spencer’s book is a model of theological dialogue between traditional Christianity and a new, admittedly "bizarre", religious tradition. Similar enterprises should probably be attempted with respect to other new religious movements as well.




I'd definately recommend the book, for anyone interested on getting a good review on the issue/seeing a balanced treatment of the Orthodoxy of Rastafarianism and how it connects to Christianity. Outside of that, For more info, one can consider going online and looking up articles under the following names:



Additionally, if interested, one of the ladies who I was conversing with shared this with me elsewhere....and in her words:
Peace,

I was never incorporated into Rastafari, but I have a number of friends among the Rastas. If you want to converse with more Rastas who have embraced Christianity and especially Orthodox Christianity, you can find many at this forum Fulfilled Rastafari House - Serving Jah & Rastafari

Rastafari has always been a blend of many different beliefs. The worship of H.I.M. Haile Selassie I has been most widespread but not all Rastas worship Selassie as god. In fact, Marcus Mosiah Garvey, a towering figure in Rastafari livity did not worship Selassie. In the 1990's I believe, the 12 tribes mansion ruled that one could be Rasta in their house and not worship Selassie, but Jah. Also, many Rastas have embraced Ethiopian Orthodox Christianity through the churches that Selassie planted in the West Indies.

The Orthodox Church is for all people regardless of nationality or background. Rastas are welcome too :angel:

M
The cultural aspects of Rastafari that I retain and respect are:

*love and concern for Africa as our ancestral homeland. This might not seem like a big deal for people with a natural connection with the land of their fathers. But for people of African or mixed descent in the West, there has often been shame associated with being Black or having ancestors that were slaves. Rastafari elders were some of the first people to teach people of African descent not to be ashamed of Africa or our physical features, but to be proud of our history and who we are.

*Identification with the poor and the sufferers. I love this about Rastafari. It is a movement of poor people and people who suffer oppression to live with dignity and "upfullness" (hope).

*Respect for His Imperial Majesty Haile Selassie I. Of course, I do not worship him, but I love his writings, the fact that he sent bishops from the Ethiopian Church to the caribbean to catechize the Rastas that were worshipping him and that he gave a portion of his personal land, Sheshamane, for people of African descent who desired to "repatriate."

*My dreadlocks :) My husband, my son and I all have them.

*The aesthetics. I wear red, gold and green which have a special significance for us. I love my head wraps, my tams, my long skirts. I love the greetings ("peace, Ras." "one love, empress.")

*Ital food :) Ital means vital. Ital food is fresh and unprocessed. No meat, no dairy and no salt. Natural medicines when possible. I don't always eat ital, though I should. The Rasta elders taught us to live close to the earth and in harmony with nature.

*The music! Here as with other genres, there is a mixed bag to be found in reggae. I take the good and leave the rest. It may not be your cup of tea, but I love roots-rock-reggae, the themes of which draw a lot from the Scriptures. I've linked one of my favorite songs below. Note the Scriptural references:

Psalm 118:19 - Open to me the gates of righteousness:
I will go into them, and I will praise the LORD:
Isaiah 26:2 - Open ye the gates, that the righteous
nation which keepeth the truth may enter in.

Isaiah 43:6 - I will say to the north, Give up;
and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far,
and my daughters from the ends of the earth;

YouTube - The Congos - Open Up The Gate

M.




Praying that the info aids you/blesses you in whatever way...concerning gaining understanding. Shalom...
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Wow...that's all very interesting. .

Curious as to what aspect of the post you found interesting..

What are your personal opinions/thoughts on this? Seeing that you have done a lot of research etc into it, I would say that you have a more informed opinion on this than most
Personally, as I shared before, I don't think that its bad to be called a "Rasta"---especially seeing that there's a myriad of diversity in the camp....and if proper qualifications are given upfront on where one stands, then it shouldn't be a problem for others to handle. For ultimately, it's an identity movement. Rasta is an Afro-Caribbean consciousness identity more than a religion...and the cultural aspects of things need to be taken into consideration when it comes to examining the religious aspects----diverse as they are.

As I mentioned earlier, I used to dislike being called "Rasta" - but when doing more research, I was at peace seeing how it can easily be something combined into one's Christian/Messianic Faith without compromising Christ. If you want to converse with more Rastas who have embraced Christianity and especially Orthodox Christianity, I'd highly suggest looking into this forum known as Fulfilled Rastafari House - Serving Jah & Rastafari. They may be able to offer even better takes than I can - seeing that I've never been fully incorporated into Rastafari.

For more info on the matter - as my information is indeed limited/I learned much elsewhere


William David Spencer is perhaps the best authority on the subject that I know of - and you'd probably dig his material..

As it relates to the Jewish culture, I think the issue is especially relevant.....as it concerns how INTIMATELY the cultural aspects of Rasta and Judaism are intertwined. In example, consider how much of an issue it is within the Jewish world on examining the reality of Jew/"concept of Jew", and who qualifies for being a "Jew". For more info, Messianic Jewish apologist Dr. Michael Brown actually wrote something very solid on the issue in his article entitled “Who Is a Jew?” Questions of Ethnicity, Religion, and Identity". The issue is not one that another can simply say "it doesn't matter"---as the implications of such are being seen DAILY in our times. Why do you think there are so many battles in Israel right now over the plight of those who are Ethopian Jews/Falasha Mura and others considering them "not Jewish enough" because of their backgrounds? Or, for that matter, why do you think there's so much battle going on over those who are Sephardi Jews (from Spain and Portugal) fighting against the European Jews for being treated as "second-class" citizens?

Likewise, with those who are in the Carribbean, its also a problem when it comes to those who are Rastas----many of them believing themselves to be a lost tribe of Israel---and yet never considered to be "Jewish" enough. To me, that's a bit interesting......as many often remember what occurred with the Slave Trade/shipping others off from Africa to the Americas and the Carribbean Islands...yet not many are aware of the fact that many of those same Africans were already Jews. The African Diaspora was directly connected with the Jewish Diaspora....and though not as readily acknowledged in previous times, others have come to be more aware of Jews and Judaism in the African diaspora---as the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D (as well as other times the Jewish nation was conquered) caused many of the Jews to be scattered all over---with Africa being one of the main places. Many Jews did not simply venture into Africa out of persecution, of course---as many were there LONG-before....but the history of African Jews is something to consider when it comes to those in Jamaica desiring to go back to Zion...and the African Homeland

As said best elsewhere:
Most people would assume that all Africans in the colonies were whipped into believing in Christ generations ago after being stripped of their culture and taken to the New World. However, Jamaican slaves came primarily from Ethiopia, and if you've heard of Operation Moses (1984) and Operation Solomon (1991), you know that the Israeli government and many religious authorities consider the Beta Jews of Ethiopia authentic, and perhaps even related to the lost tribe of Dan. If that's the case, then for many Jamaicans, the Black Diaspora was only a continuation of the Jewish Diaspora, and while they may read King James's Bible, it's King Solomon they have allegiance to.
Concerning Zion, its intriguing to see how with the Rastas, Zion is the African Homeland---specifically, the ancient country of Ethopia. And as much of the focus is upon Ethopia, its no surprise to see the intimate connections the Rastas feel with the struggle of those who are Ethiopian Jews & Falasha ..and how much oppression they've receieved in Israel due to their background. For if you're aware of the situation with those who are Black Jews, many appreciate that they have a place to escape the persecution, Israel..but on the other side of that, there is alot of racism among the Ashkenazim influx who do not accept them as they should... and thus sometimes they are treated as second class citizens in Israel. It has been a situation that has angered many Jewish people..



250px-Demonstration-6.11.06.jpg
]​

It's sad seeing some of the ways that the same things done in Israel have been done before to other Jews when they were persecuted, as other Israeli citizens experienced horrible things at the hands of the government, such as forced sterialization...the Ethiopian Jewish population (long discriminated against in the land) in specific going through that same thing at the hands of Israeli government


Some of this I've written more extensively elsewhere on the matter----as seen in a thread I made entitlted Messianc Jew Battles vs The Exile of Black Jews: Why No Discussion on Ethopian Jews?. Due to age, the thread may no longer be in existence..but as said there originally:
Originally Posted by Gxg (G²)
Crowds of Ethiopian `Falash Mura` immigrants protested at an Israeli government decision not to admit more of their relatives because of a judgment that they had converted from Judaism to Christianity....

With that in mind, I was writing this due to an insightful video I was able to come across on the issue of Ethopian Jews. For more information on them:

Here
Concerning the issue, I was curious as to what Messianic Jews think on the matter....for sincerly, when I LOOk at the demographics of congregations claiming to be Messianic Jewish, it often seems as if there are very few that discuss the issue of what's happening to Beta Israel....or the FALASHA Mura. Of course, I'm aware of others in Israel..but again, I don't see the issue broadcast often...
Originally Posted by Gxg (G²)
Who is a Jew?


In the initial stages of an immigration that began three decades ago, all the Ethiopians immigrating to Israel were recognized outright as Jews. But those now seeking to make the trip are the so-called Falash Mura, whose ancestors converted to Christianity, the main Ethiopian faith, at the end of the 19th century to escape discrimination.

Initially Israel balked at accepting their claim of Jewishness, but relented after American Jews led a campaign for the Falash Mura.

For more info on the matter of those who are Black Jews:



Moving on,

I'm actively involved in a Messianic Jewish fellowship known as "Congregation Mishkan David" , under the leadership of Rabbi Aaron Evans. For more info, one can go to Marietta Daily Journal - Two faiths, one roof. I'm very close friends with the rabbi there...My older brother/spiritual father in the Lord, who was raised in a Messianic Jewish family and is a former Eastern Orthodox priest and monk--and thus, very big on studying/understanding the Church Fathers, as well Church History.

And when it came to discussing the issue of Black Jews as well as Rastas, it was cool to see just how open he was on the matter....and, for that matter, enthusiasticly supportative of others who seek to make clear how much of a Black Side/aspect of things has been lost within the Jewish world. It's highly intriguing when one does the research how often those who're either Jewish or Messianic Jewish are portrayed as "caucasian" the majority of the time in many churches....and those who're Black are considered "Black Jews" rather than simply Messianic Jewish since anyone honestly researching will see that the stereotype of Jews predominately being "caucasian" in the Original Culture is off. .


falasha-07.jpg




And some of it is VERY heavy to consider-----as even in Israel, among Jewish people, there's still the age old issue of RACIAL DIVIDE.......and lack of acceptance of an Africa/Afro-Centric view while the Euro-Centric view of scripture/history is all that's virtually accepted.


And for a personal perspective on the matter when it comes to the concept of Black Jews, it was odd at times being a Black Hispanic learning about/loving Jewish Culture---and yet, still battling with the times I'd prefer that I'd be a bloodline Israelite....and feeling that blacks are not really connected to the Jewish faith as much as those who're European. Going back/studying, however, I was shocked to witness how much of the Early Church Fathers were black (Augustine of Hippo, in example). I was shocked when seeing some of the pictures of him---as I always assumed he was white..but then again, when considering the reality/pictures, its not surprising:


St.-Augustine-of-Hippo.jpg



And outside of him, various others in Jewish Culture have black aspects within them that I never realized---from Simon of Cyrene (Luke 23:25-27 ) to Solomon and a host of others......many of the things that are never discussed.


Of course, for those who are RASTA, this is a big deal--and something ACTIVELY discussed in their circles. And thus, why those within are glad others are actively teaching there's no need to be ashamed of an African Prescence in the Scriptures or backgrounds that need to be dealt with. Colonialism and Imperialism did a significant job setting the stage/making it seem as if European perspectives was the only way to filter scripture thru---using it to subjugate/enslave many in the name of "Christ"....and thus, why many have problems with Christianity today as a "white man's religion". But those showing the black side of the Faith are doing much to change that.


The Rasta Life is one of the many ways in which God, IMHO, is seeking to address that.

Sorry if what I said came off as rambling......but I pray it makes sense...
 
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Easy G (G²);55382045 said:
Curious as to what aspect of the post you found interesting..

Well, that's an easy one- all of it. Why? It's completely different to what I have come across before. My only previous experience with Rastafarianism was a long time ago when I saw a British Rasta being interviewed on TV. He was pretty displeased with causcasians and had a lot of negative things to say about the UK, but what struck me most was his use of religious language that was foreign to me. I remember him using the phrase "I and I" a lot in his discourse on a relationship to God.

As I grew up, I heard more positive things about it, but truth be told I believe every culture should be able to express their love for Jesus in the manner that befits them according to the authority of the scriptures we all must heed. Hence, your posts have opened my eyes a bit to more of the wonderful and colourful mosiac of cultures and experiences that bloom across our planet.

Also, as a Jew, I think we need to remember our brethren who are of a different tribe or sub-culture. People can pick me for a Jew walking down the street, because perhaps I fit a stereotype a little easier than others, but I know one guy of Asian decent who converted and people always assume he is a Muslim when he wears his kippah. But, to us, he is a Jew and that's all that matters. His kids will be Jews. According to halacha, he is kosher and that's the bottom line.

As a Christian, I get very excited when I see and get a chance to share with Christians of other ethnicites and backgrounds. I believe in the promotion of unity in diversity, and I think the whole Body of Christ is enriched by this. I think different customs and liturgies make the place a lot nicer. We can express Christian orthodoxy in many ways, and I think Jesus always had that in mind.

I really want to check out some of the stuff you have linked to with proper due time, so rather than comment too much I wish to reserve the right to soak it up some more.

In regards African Christianity, I really enjoyed this series of lectures by Thomas Oden, which you can watch (when you have hours spare) here:

Libyan Christianity 1: A Libyan History Awaiting Discovery - Thomas C. Oden

It's a long series but once it gets underway it's really worth it.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Well, that's an easy one- all of it. Why? It's completely different to what I have come across before.


Wow....

Didn't know that it was that deep---as in some things involved that really were radically different than what was heard of before. But cool to know regardless.
. My only previous experience with Rastafarianism was a long time ago when I saw a British Rasta being interviewed on TV. He was pretty displeased with causcasians and had a lot of negative things to say about the UK, but what struck me most was his use of religious language that was foreign to me. I remember him using the phrase "I and I" a lot in his discourse on a relationship to God.
Concerning negative statements about Caucasians, its common within Rastafarianism (as well as many black circles) to be upset at many of the things others are unaware of--such as White Privelage, the Myth of "White Man's burden"/White Paternalism toward others and the evils done by Colonialism and Imperialism in the name of "Christianity". However, as I don't know what the man you're referring to said, I can only guess.

Not exactly certain about what the "I & I" Phrase is about...as I was just asked about this recently.


As I grew up, I heard more positive things about it, but truth be told I believe every culture should be able to express their love for Jesus in the manner that befits them according to the authority of the scriptures we all must heed. Hence, your posts have opened my eyes a bit to more of the wonderful and colourful mosiac of cultures and experiences that bloom across our planet.
Got ya. Glad to know we're wired the same.

Also, as a Jew, I think we need to remember our brethren who are of a different tribe or sub-culture. People can pick me for a Jew walking down the street, because perhaps I fit a stereotype a little easier than others, but I know one guy of Asian decent who converted and people always assume he is a Muslim when he wears his kippah. But, to us, he is a Jew and that's all that matters. His kids will be Jews. According to halacha, he is kosher and that's the bottom line.

Preach it..

Its funny you mentioned what you did with the Asian individual--as there are many fellowships and people out there with many unique flavors to them-----some of which shock people enough as it is. The nanny who used to baby-sit my sister was Mexican...but she was married to a Jewish kat at one point/had children by him..and consequently, the children were Mexican Jews and having cultural backgrounds/food preferences of both Jewish and Hispanic origins. For them, they were "Jewish"...but people on the outside convice themselves so much of Jewishness being only in one context that they cannot consider Mexicans to have any kind of connection. But that's all due to ignorance, IMHO..

There are a myraid of ways in which the Jews have crossed over into a myriad of cultural contexualizations. For another example, there was an interesting article I was able to come across recently that had me thinking--as its entitled "Is There A Connection Between Ancient Indian And Hebrew Language?". Some have made clear that in the eras where the Jews were scattered throughout various empires (i.e. the Persians, Greeks, Alexander the Great's Empire), that other cultures got clearly involved. Some say that the contact between Jews and Ancient India was mostly via Dilmun..and for more info, Bahrain has been inhabited since prehistoric times and several thousand burial mounds in the northern part of the main island probably date from the Sumerian Period of the 3rd millennium BC. It was the seat of ancient Dilmun -- a prosperous trading centre linking Sumer with the Indus Valley about 2000 BC. The archipelago was mentioned by Persian -- Greek -- Roman geographers and historians.

Something to consider...seeing how Jews in India have lived among the predominant Hindu and Muslim population for millennia----and when considering Indian Jews /Jews of India, its amazing to see how much is not presented in many churches today. Thankfully, its not something that ALL are not aware of..........and many have sought to address the matter as best as possible. One place that comes to mind is Jewsofindia.org...and another one that comes to mind is a Jewish/Indian individual who does art work---and has been coming into more prominence of late in what she shows. Siona Benjamin is an Indian Jewish painter , and her Blue Like Me series has been very intriguing to many. For more info, one can go to Siona Benjamin - My Jewish Learning .


As said there:​










FH46WM.jpg

Born into the Bene Israel Jewish tradition, Benjamin grew up Jewish in a Muslim and Hindu community while attending Catholic and Zoroastrian schools. Living her life at the intersection of multiple faith traditions, as well as moving from Bombay to Iowa for graduate school and then to New Jersey where she is currently based, has made her desire to find “home” a constant preoccupation of her life. The conclusion Benjamin has come to: home doesn’t exist. “In this increasingly trans-cultural world, home is where you place your tent. The world is getting smaller,” she says.

Benjamin’s work reflects this. Drawing from the faith traditions she has lived within, combining them with modern images and stories, Benjamin’s art is truly multi-cultural. “I have always had to reflect upon the cultural boundary zones in which I have lived,” says Benjamin.
..........
..........................


Siona Benjamin's work brings together a wide array of sacred and secular images: Lilith, the Pop artist Roy Lichtenstein, Indian comic books, lotus flowers, American flags, ballerinas, tanks, IV needles, phylacteries, gas masks. But she does more than just collage American, Jewish, and Indian symbols together. She also rethinks the context and symbolism of those references. For example, in "Finding Home No. 46 ('Tikkun ha-Olam')" Benjamin shows a self-portrait of the artist as a seven-branch Menorah, no doubt a Jewish play on the multi-armed Hindu gods. The candleholders are hamsas, and the figure dances beside a snake (the evil inclination?) and a sphinx blowing a horn (shofar?). In casting herself as Shiva--a major Hindu God--Benjamin achieves the same sort of religious nuance that Chagall attains in his "White Crucifixion" (1938), where Jesus' loincloth is a tallit. By stressing Jesus' Jewishness, Chagall shows that Jews can "own" the symbol of the crucifixion and it need not only appear in Christian contexts. Benjamin's Jewish Shiva blends the imagery of the menorah's arms (representing the days of creation) with the symbolism of Shiva's arms (which also may have to do with creation).

In so doing, Benjamin is perhaps also presenting the artistic version of the talmudic declaration that there are 70 perspectives (literally panim, or faces) to the Torah. By presenting her personal Jewish identity, Benjamin exposes some of the Western stereotypes about Judaism and reminds her viewers that just as there are 70 equally valid interpretations of the Torah, there are dozens of ways to make a Jewish painting. The rabbis did not necessarily have Benjamin's interfaith enterprise in mind, but just as Jewish art has so often borrowed aesthetic forms from Christian and pagan culture, Benjamin establishes herself as heir to that tradition and adds her own personal touch by using contemporary symbols and references.



For other places to go to on Sonja..

Indeed, Jews come in all shapes/sizes....


On the issue of Jews of differing cultures/ethnicities, there's actually a wonderful ministry seeking to deal with such...as one can go online/look up a ministry by the name of Be’chol Lashon .meaning "In Every Tongue"--which is a research and community- building initiative created by the Institute for Jewish & Community Research to support a Jewish people that is more racially, ethnically, and culturally inclusive, both in the United States and around the world. And it goes into exceptional detail concerning the many struggles for those who were of MIXED ancestry (i.e. Gentile/Jewish) and yet, due to stereotypes, they were considered not really "Jewish".

For one story on the issue, one can go to the following:


Also, I actually saw a video on this very matter not too long ago---as it concer. It's found at the following:


Jews Of Color Part 1


One can also go to "Memoirs of a Jewminicana--Multiculturalism...."


As a Christian, I get very excited when I see and get a chance to share with Christians of other ethnicites and backgrounds. I believe in the promotion of unity in diversity, and I think the whole Body of Christ is enriched by this. I think different customs and liturgies make the place a lot nicer. We can express Christian orthodoxy in many ways, and I think Jesus always had that in mind.

Indeed---and if I may add, I'd say that differing customs/liturgies and backgrounds can be appreciated EVEN IF their orgins may not have been originally from a Biblical perspective. Just as one does not have to disown many of the sciences we use today simply because their original contexts were used for bad, so it is with many liturgies/customs today that are used for glorifying the Lord and becoming redeemed.


Nonetheless, seeing how many treat others, it seems like nothing more than the reality of happened with the Jews and Samaritans....seeing that there was a deep hatred that existed between the Jews and the Samaritans. The Jews saw themselves as pure descendents of Abraham, while the Samaritans were a mixed race produced when THE Jews from the northern kingdom intermarried with other peoples imported from other nations by the King of Assyria after the exile in order to keep peace (II Kings 17:24)

Moving on, the Jews in the southern kingdom considered Samaratins to be “IMPURE”RACIALLY/refused to recieve help from, even during the rebuilding/return from EXILE. Thus the pure Jews hated this mixed race because they felt that their fellow Jews who had intermarried had betrayed their people/nation…….and the Samaratins had set up an alternate center for worship on Mount Gerizim to parallel the temple at Jerusalem, but it had been destroyed 150 YEARS earlier. For more info, go check out II Kings 17/2 Kings 17, Ezra 4 , Nehemiah 2 , Nehemiah 4.)……


Relations between the 2 groups got progressively worse, even into Jesus's day..and hence, the reason why Jesus chose to have a Samaritan be the hero of his parable, as he would have been the person least suspected by a Jew to be worthy/capable of anything, Luke 10:27 )…..and moreover, the reason why JESUS HIMSELF WAS INTENTIONAL ABOUT MINISTERING TO Samaritans....like Jesus when he interacted with others like the Samaritan Woman (John 4 )---and going places that were often "forbidden" as with Samaritan territory ( Luke 9:51-53 / Luke 9 ). There were already many hostilities Jews had toward GENTILES at large------and hence, why Jesus often got into trouble when it came to differing Gentiles He praised (and which often incited the Jews to Murder--as seen in Luke 4:25-27 / Luke 4 )---often showing how even the Gentiles had something to contribute to the Faith.
 
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Also, as a Jew, I think we need to remember our brethren who are of a different tribe or sub-culture.
.


Wanted to mention that the ways in which other Jews of different ethnicities are treated seems saddening when considering how many are called not "Jewish" enough since the the DOMINANT image of Judaism has been thru European Lens for centuries....even though it wasn't always that way. It seems even more interesting when considering that many historical events have increased the image of European Jews being the dominant ones to focus upon.

At one point, during WWII, not many were really concerned with the Jews. But after the Holocaust was discovered, there was a big push toward ZIONISM and getting the European Jews a homeland. Though a benefit of that was that many Jews were taken care of, the detriment of it was that the image of European forever dominated the media ...and all other Jews of differing orgins were not really as discussed. Even with the Jews who came into Israel, it was the EUROPEAN Jews who ended up in power. When one understands the times events occurred in----and how BLACKS were not really in favor at the time--its no surprise to see how things went down.....and its intriguing to see how many in Israel were advertising vehemently that Jews around the world needed to come settle in Israel....and for many of the Jews of African Descent, they were cool living in the countries they were established in. Despite their claims that Israel was the one hope for Jewish survival, Jewish people in many places were comfortable in their homes and businesses.

For more information, I've written a thread on the matter elsewhere as seen a thread I made entitled Is Christian Zionism compatible with Messianic Judaism--or considerate of Non-Jews?. The thread may've been, however, deleted because of age---but I was able to save most of the information/place it elsewhere in threads here such as "Standing with Israel" /Obama calls for a return to pre-1967 Israel, which specifically deal with the dynamic of Zionism ... its interesting to see how many Jews did not want to leave where they were at---and hated the means that were being used to establish a "homeland" for them, only to have to be "forced"/"ousted out of their homes when situations were created that caused hatred to rise---and many African Jews may have been told that they were "home"--but for many of them, it was nothing short of the beginning of another African diaspora/time of DISPLACEMENT.......

And even for those Black Jews who walk alongside those European ones who lost others in the Holocaust, it can be a trip to see how many Black Jews lost others in that time.....yet it was not acknowledged during the event.

I was surprised to learn not too long ago on the reality of HOW MANY BLACKS Died in the Holocaust as much as Europeans. It may sound a bit random to bring up---but in thinking on it, it seemed relevant to bring up in the discussion. Again, many don't realize the reality of what it was like for Blacks During the Holocaust


If interested, something I think you'd be tripped out by is the book entitled Hitler's Black Victims: The Historical Experiences of European Blacks, Africans and African Americans During the Nazi Era (Crosscurrents in African American History)


For a brief excerpt:


The Nazi era in Germany and all of its accompanying atrocities is one of the most documented periods in history. However, this documentation is incomplete in one important area: the history and experiences of people of African descent in Nazi Germany. Did Afro-Germans and other blacks suffer under Nazism? The answer to this question, to the degree it has been asked at all, remains vague even for those scholars and researchers familiar with the Nazi era and the Holocaust in particular.

Drawing on interviews with the Black survivors of Nazi concentration camps and archival research in North America, Europe, and Africa, this book documents and analyzes the meaning of Nazism's racial policies towards people of African descent, specifically those born in Germany, France, England, the United States or Africa, and the impact of that legacy on contemporary race relations in Germany, and more generally, in Europe. The book also specifically addresses the concerns of those surviving Afro-Germans who were victims of Nazism, but have not generally been included in or benefited from the compensation agreements that have been developed in recent years.
For an online read of the Book:


It was referenced in the ministry of the man who wrote the article I sent you on on Black Missionaries missing, as he was discussing the issue of Aboriton/Sexual Promiscuity in the Black community and the rise of Eugenics/Genocide in the Black Community with "Planned Parenthood"---and how Hitler was also aiming at affecting American Blacks at some point when he was coming against those in Germany who were Afro-Germans ..........targeting those blacks within his sphere of influence in Germany with the Eugenics ideals while relying on others to bring the same ideals over to those in the states--as said nin The Road To Self-Genocide.

For more, one can also go online/ investigate an article entitled "The Negro Project: Margaret Sanger's Eugenic Plan for Black Americans" ---from an organization that documents the racist/eugenist ideals of Sanger and what she/Hitler were planning to do globally with those who were minorities. For Hitler, it was always a two-front plan. If his actions with the Holocaust for Jews didn't succedd, at least he'd be successful at spreading genocidal plans abroad to the U.S and ensuring that the genocide would continue unoticed for a LONG TIME.......for Margret would make it seem like it was necessary.

As it concerns the actions of what Hitler did through Sanger, Millions upon MILLIONS of Children have since died as a result---not only black babies (who are quickly coming to the verge of extinction), but now children of all ethnicities. Consequently, what has occurred to the Jews now PALES in comparsion to what has happened to the children of all classes......seeing how the death toll has been rising ever since the 60's and doesn't seem to stop. Amazing to consider that her goal of wiping out the Black community has been steadily coming true in light of the disproportionate numbers of abortion clinics in minority communities and how many black babies have been continually murdered----as well as children of all ethnicities. And the shedding of innocent blood/murder of Children is something the Lord said he'd take VERY seriously.

But we often act as if the Mini-Holocaust of ABORTION in the U.S. that began solely because of Eugenics is somehow less of an issue than the suffering of Jews? Something seems odd to me on that.

And with the Afro-Germans and Blacks who perished during the Holocaust, as said before, perspective makes a big deal. For its not surprising to see how much that has been avoided when one remebers the times that the Holocaust occurred in. Even with the U.S army, you could be a black soldier and yet not even treated with the same respect/honor in death as someone who wasn't.....and it didn't matter what kind of suffering was going on in Black communities since being "colored" was not much of a focus during the day. Thus, even for those who were Black Jews OR Blacks who perished, it didn't hit others as much.


For another excellent book on the issue, one EXCELLENT read on the issue of Blacks in the Holocaust is entitled "Germany’s Black Holocaust, 1890-1945: The Untold Truth!" by Firpo W. Carr ( Amazon.com: Germany's Black Holocaust, 1890-1945: The Untold Truth! (9780963129345): Firpo W. Carr: Books ). In the 1890s Blacks were tortured in German concentration camps in Southwest Africa (now called Namibia) when Adolph Hitler was only a child. Colonial German doctors conducted unspeakable medical experiments on these emaciated helpless Africans decades before such atrocities were ever visited upon the Jews. Thousands of Africans were massacred. Regrettably, historians neglected to properly register the slaughter—that is, to lift it from the footnote in history that it had been relegated to—until now.

In an attempt to give the incidents their rightful recognition in the historical context of the Holocaust, Dr. Firpo W. Carr discussed the hidden history of Black victims of the Holocaust....beginning at the the turn of the 20th century, many years before there were ever any other unfortunate victims—Jew or Gentile—of the Holocaust.

Seeing the information, I was bit shocked at how it seemed to be blantantly left out of the books whenever it came to the portrayal/pictures of Jews who were killed. However, one must understand the times.....for"colored" is "colored"...and a Negro is a Negro. As many in the U.S. only favored white imagery, it would have been natural for focus to go solely on those Jews of a certain complexion.

Even for those American Jews who were of African or Black ancestry, they would not be recognized in the times as having apart of the Jewish struggle in the Holocaust due to their skin complexion----whereas those of European complexion as Jews were often given sympathy.

If the images of the Holocaust had been predominately of Black looking individuals, you'd probably would not have seen much fuss on the matter.....and as it stands, that's EXACTLY what often happened when it came to many blacks who died. We already see a principle of this in the military set-up of World War II and how colored soldiers were not as valued as others----whereas those of Jewish background could hide themselves due to looking white.

And with the Afro-Germans and Blacks who perished during the Holocaust, as said before, perspective makes a big deal. For its not surprising to see how much that has been avoided when one remebers the times that the Holocaust occurred in. Even with the U.S army, you could be a black soldier and yet not even treated with the same respect/honor in death as someone who wasn't.....and it didn't matter what kind of suffering was going on in Black communities since being "colored" was not much of a focus during the day. Thus, even for those who were Black Jews OR Blacks who perished, it didn't hit others as much.


Outside of that, for more info on what occurred with Afro-German, one can go online/look up the following under their respective titless:

Perhaps one of the best books around to investigate on the issue is entitled Destined to Witness: Growing Up Black in Nazi Germany.

For an analysis of the book:


9780060959616.jpg





Sorry for that tangent---but I Hope the info aids in the discussion...'
 
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Also, as a Jew, I think we need to remember our brethren who are of a different tribe or sub-culture. People can pick me for a Jew walking down the street, because perhaps I fit a stereotype a little easier than others, but I know one guy of Asian decent who converted and people always assume he is a Muslim when he wears his kippah. But, to us, he is a Jew and that's all that matters. His kids will be Jews. According to halacha, he is kosher and that's the bottom line..

If I may ask, what specific kind of Jew are you?

Are you with Ashkenazi Jews, Maghrebim Jews Mizrahi Jews, Sephardi Jews or another group entirely?

Originally Posted by ContraMundum
I really want to check out some of the stuff you have linked to with proper due time, so rather than comment too much I wish to reserve the right to soak it up some more.

In regards African Christianity, I really enjoyed this series of lectures by Thomas Oden, which you can watch (when you have hours spare) here:

Libyan Christianity 1: A Libyan History Awaiting Discovery - Thomas C. Oden

It's a long series but once it gets underway it's really worth it
By no means do you even have to consider investigating everything written--as you can comment as much or as little as you please. I've enjoyed the dialouges you've already given and your heart in what you share.

Outside of that, Many thanks for the reference---as I'll be certain to investigate it...
 
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Easy G (G²);55384043 said:
Wanted to mention that the ways in which other Jews of different ethnicities are treated seems saddening when considering how many are called not "Jewish" enough since the the DOMINANT image of Judaism has been thru European Lens for centuries....even though it wasn't always that way. It seems even more interesting when considering that many historical events have increased the image of European Jews being the dominant ones to focus upon.

European Jews have been very active this last century or so in so many ways, so in a sense the focus has been on them. I like to remember that in the west we have more media, so more western Jews are "out there" so to speak.

At one point, during WWII, not many were really concerned with the Jews. But after the Holocaust was discovered, there was a big push toward ZIONISM and getting the European Jews a homeland. Though a benefit of that was that many Jews were taken care of, the detriment of it was that the image of European forever dominated the media ...and all other Jews of differing orgins were not really as discussed. Even with the Jews who came into Israel, it was the EUROPEAN Jews who ended up in power. When one understands the times events occurred in----and how BLACKS were not really in favor at the time--its no surprise to see how things went down.....and its intriguing to see how many in Israel were advertising vehemently that Jews around the world needed to come settle in Israel....and for many of the Jews of African Descent, they were cool living in the countries they were established in. Despite their claims that Israel was the one hope for Jewish survival, Jewish people in many places were comfortable in their homes and businesses.

This is true, but times are changing due to the new economic and political changes that make parts of Africa harder to live in- and Israel seems a more prosperous option.

For more information, I've written on the matter elsewhere in a thread I made entitled Is Christian Zionism Compatible with Messianic Judaism...or considerate of Non-Jews? ..but on the matter, its interesting to see how many Jews did not want to leave where they were at---and hated the means that were being used to establish a "homeland" for them, only to have to be "forced"/"ousted out of their homes when situations were created that caused hatred to rise---and many African Jews may have been told that they were "home"--but for many of them, it was nothing short of the beginning of another African diaspora/time of DISPLACEMENT.......

It's an interesting topic and I think the whole Satmar/NK angle can also be fit in there somewhere. As a Messianic, I understand the historical basis for the development of Zionism, but I also know that only the Messiah will ever restore the land in peace. But, this is politically incorrect on this forum.

And even for those Black Jews who walk alongside those European ones who lost others in the Holocaust, it can be a trip to see how many Black Jews lost others in that time.....yet it was not acknowledged during the event.

Spread the word!

http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Black...=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1274464167&sr=8-3

I'm going to check it out!


 
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Easy G (G²);55384116 said:
If I may ask, what specific kind of Jew are you?

Are you with Ashkenazi Jews, Maghrebim Jews Mizrahi Jews, Sephardi Jews or another group entirely?

I'm Sephardi/Ashkenazi mix.

By no means do you even have to consider investigating everything written--as you can comment as much or as little as you please. I've enjoyed the dialouges you've already given and your heart in what you share.

Outside of that, Many thanks for the reference---as I'll be certain to investigate it...

To be honest this has been the only interesting thread on this forum for about a year. I enjoy the wealth of knowledge that you are willing to share!
 
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Easy G (G²);55384029 said:
Wow....

Didn't know that it was that deep---as in some things involved that really were radically different than what was heard of before. But cool to know regardless.
Concerning negative statements about Caucasians, its common within Rastafarianism (as well as many black circles) to be upset at many of the things others are unaware of--such as White Privelage, the Myth of "White Man's burden"/White Paternalism toward others and the evils done by Colonialism and Imperialism in the name of "Christianity". However, as I don't know what the man you're referring to said, I can only guess.

It was a long time ago.

Not exactly certain about what the "I & I" Phrase is about...as I was just asked about this recently.

I think one of the "I"s is meant to represent us, and the other "I" represents God, so the "I & I" is one's relationship with God, I think.

Indeed---and if I may add, I'd say that differing customs/liturgies and backgrounds can be appreciated EVEN IF their orgins may not have been originally from a Biblical perspective. Just as one does not have to disown many of the sciences we use today simply because their original contexts were used for bad, so it is with many liturgies/customs today that are used for glorifying the Lord and becoming redeemed.

Oh, I agree 100%. God redeems whatever He wants. But, you can't tell that to some of the other posters around here.

I like the info on this post of yours...great stuff.
 
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European Jews have been very active this last century or so in so many ways, so in a sense the focus has been on them. I like to remember that in the west we have more media, so more western Jews are "out there" so to speak.
True---though in the last century, those who are Non-European Jews have also been very active..........be it with Sephardic Jews or African Jews/Middle Eastern Jews, Indian Jews and many others...and seeing how many have been around for AGES within their own cultures/recognized, its odd to see how much the focus goes only to the Europeans.

Though of course, a Jew's a Jew...and I have no problem with those who are active. As a Black Hispanic, it was the direct result of Jews working with Blacks that helped much during some crucial times in the development of both camps. And even Jews who suffered in the Holocaust can attest to this.

Going back to what was mentioned earlier when bringing up the book entitled "Destined to Witness: Growing Up Black in Nazi Germany", did you know that in the 1920s, there were 24,000 Blacks living in Germany? Neither did I---and the book does an excellent job at showing how many were taken off guard by the Holocaust. As another said best in reviewing the book:
Soon after his birth in Hamburg in 1926, the author’s father returned to Liberia to bolster his family’s failing stature in national politics, leaving his wife and son to grapple with everyday life amid the rise of fascism in Germany. The Reich’s racial politics were so steadfastly drummed into German schoolchildren that the young Hans quickly acquired an anti-Semitic outlook only to realize that he was also subject to discrimination as a non-Aryan.

.

Asked how he survived Hitler's reign of terror, Mr. Massaquoi credits two factors. The fact that there were so few blacks in Germany at the time made them a low priority for mass extermination. Additionally, the rapid advance of the allied troops gave Hitler "more to worry about than Hans Massaquoi."

Many believe that Jews suffered the most in both discrimination and torture during the Holocaust. However, people forget that racist propaganda against black soldiers in Germany depicted them as rapists of German women and carriers of venereal and other diseases. The children of black soldiers and German women were called "Rhineland %#@&($." The Nazis, at the time when they were a small political movement, viewed them as a threat to the purity of the Germanic race. In Mein Kampf, Adolf Hitler charged that "the Jews had brought the Negroes into the Rhineland with the clear aim of ruining the hated white race by the necessarily-resulting bastardization." What also isn't well known is that African German mulatto children were marginalized in German society, isolated socially and economically, and not allowed to attend university. Racial discrimination prohibited them from seeking most jobs, including service in the military. With the Nazi rise to power they became a target of racial and population policy. By 1937, the Gestapo (German secret state police) had secretly rounded up and forcibly sterilized many of them. Some were subjected to medical experiments while others mysteriously disappeared.

The subject of medical experimentation should have raised LOTS of outrage--but within the U.S., that same kind of issue was already occurring. When it comes to the Medical Profession, one of the things that keeps some black men from seeing doctors are historical distrust of the profession.....and much of this distrust comes from the hypocrisy blacks saw in the U.S when black men were treated wrongly in things like the Tuskegee medical experiments conducted by the United States Public Health Service (PHS) between 1932 and 1972 on 399 African-American adult male subjects who were diagnosed as having late stage syphilis. One can go online and look up an article by the name of Case Study 3: The Tuskegee Syphilis Study ( //www.onlineethics.org/CMS/edu/precol/scienceclass/sectone/cs3.aspx ) and "Research Ethics: The Tuskegee Syphilis Study." ( //www.tuskegee.edu/404.aspx ). For the experiments were unjustified on moral/ethical grounds----some of them being downright racist and genocidal even if scientific research was done. The suspicion and fear generated by the Tuskegee Syphilis Study is more than evident today, as community workers report mistrust of public health institutions within the African American community....

Alpha Thomas of the Dallas Urban League testified before the National Commission on AIDS the following:

So many African American people I work with do not trust hospitals or any of the other community health care service providers because of that Tuskegee Experiment" (National Commission on AIDS, 1990).
Seeing how the U.S. was already experimenting on Blacks, it was odd to see how often they'd disucss experimentations on the Jews in "outrage". Many forget how many Jews were mad enough at the U.S, as the U.S was known to be downright RACIST/Anti-Semitic toward Jews throughout its existence....with many forgetting why it was so significant that Martin Luther King/other civil rights leaders were working with Jews here in the U.S during the times of the Holocaust...and the Jews acknowleding how the U.S didn't even treat its own people right.

If anyone remembers a man by the name of Stanley Levison, he was one of the most prominent Jewish leaders at the time who was also an important Jewish advisor to King. Of course, that is not often discussed....and the same goes with discussing others Jewish leaders helping King out such as Morris Abram and Abraham Joshua Heschel. There's also the reality of the Jewish participation in the historic march from Selma to Montgomery and the assistance King gave to the struggle against Soviet repression of Jews.

There has historically been Jewish altruism toward African-Americans,--as Jews came to see that their relative prosperity was no protection against the same social forces that threatened blacks. It thus became in the Jewish American self-interest to support the black struggle for racial justice and to fight against American prejudice....though that didn't mean Jews got involved only for selfish reasons. Though many did so for wrong reasons, there were many Jewish leaders and organisations who genuinely believed in the cause of black civil rights---and they were willing to launch war on the nation that they felt had not lived up to its own pronouncements of freedom and equality.

Beginning in the 1950s, blacks and Jews worked together to end legal discrimination in the South, but by the late 1960s the alliance was suffering stress over such issues as affirmative action and American support of Israel on certain issues that seemed inconsistent with treating certain groups properly. Even though others like Martin Luther King did not advocate an "anti-Israel" mindset----as he enjoyed good trips to Israel many times----he also made clear that it was odd to see how Negros were still seen as irrelevant when it came to struggles..

I was blessed to be able to read some in-depth books on the issue that give more historical information concerning how much Jews and Blacks shared history with one another even before the Holocaust came out......and how when the Holocaust came out, as horrible as that was, many focused SOLELY on that for the sake of ignoring the plights that many blacks were going through systematically for ages.

For some excellent books on the issue that I've been blessed to read...and which may be of benefit to others, one can go online/look them up under the following names:

Would strongly recommend that others choose to investigate the material offered---as discussed by other Jews on what wa happening historically at the time. For again, its amazing to me seeing how many Jews at the time were very bothered by how those in the U.S seemed to use the Holocaust as a means of distraction from the current battles in the U.S when it came to minorities in their struggles...and many Jews are STILL speaking out about it today.

To see the number of Jews who've actively spoken out and said that blacks (Black Jews as well) deserve as much credence dedicated to them JUST as much as others say Jews deserve a Museum for the Holocaust, IMHO, there's no excuse for others to say it was somehow just different....and that the slavery of other groups was LESS than that of the Jews..

Sadly, what we see today in many parts is a lack of remembrance of the STRONG ties that blacks/Jews often had with one another...and this is especially poignant when considering the ways many Jews are nationalistic over Israel while blacks/black Jews may feel differently in regards to other places of identification.


For solid works on the matter:

The issues of Jewish Nationalism & Zionism has been a very fascinating thing to study-----as I've been reading up on the issue and realizing just how precarious it can be...and all of the consequences that can come about from it. Some books one can look up on the issue would ones such as "Struggles in the Promised Land: Towards a History of Black-Jewish Relations in the United States()". The book is a collection of 21 essays on the matter of what has often gone down with Black Jewish relations. Concerning the book, it was EXTREMELY well-documented....as it relates to the many solid cooperation efforts between Jews and Blacks during the Civil Rights time---as well as how many of those things got very much strained later on..... issues as African-American anti-Semitism, the left-wing connections of King's important Jewish advisor, Stanley Levison, the issues of Black Nationalism and the early reluctance of many Southern Jews to endorse the civil rights movement as well as other issues.


Another one dealing with the issue from the viewpoint of the past 300 years prior is called "Strangers & Neighbors: Relations Between Blacks & Jews in the United States"( )

Another one I'm currently reading is entitled "Jews and Blacks: A Dialogue on Race, Religion, and Culture in America (Paperback)"---which is an extensive discussion between Micheal Learner (of Tikkun Ministries) and Cornel West..one of the greatest black scholars of all time.

The other book I was wanting to let you know about was one I read awhile back---entitled "Black Zion: African American religious encounters with Judaism" ( ), as it relates to some of the issues of sub-cultures within the larger political culture of "Israel" discussion/DISCUSSING who is or isn't a true Jew....with topics including the various groups that identify themselves as black Jews or Hebrews, the Nation of Islam's rhetoric, the influence of Martin Luther King on Abraham Heschel on Black Jewish Relations, the appropriation of former synagogues as urban churches, etc




41F7la7xHfL.jpg




The book can be found/read online thankfully at Google Books. Interesting read, with many things I agree with ...and some things that I SHARPLY disagree with.




20.jpg



As a Black Hispanic/growing up in the black community, I've often seen in the Black community many instances of friction with support of the State of Israel/ignoral of Palestinian thought...especially when others say all Jews should support the State of Israel while simultaneously claiming to many of those blacks of Jewish descent that they were not truly "Jewish"--causing another level of friction. The encounters of Africans and Black Americans who live in the Jewish community have always been fascinating to me, whether it be because they are Jews by birth or conversion, and its a trip when seeing how others are treated who came to Israel in order to work or study. In the USA, thousands of Black Jews formed distinct groups while others joined traditional Jewish communities...and all of these men and women affirm their identity without forgetting their African origins and culture.....even when it includes orgins that include Palestinian backgrounds as well. Each one, in their own way, expresses a Black Jewishness, which finds its place within the diversity of Judaism.

But often, that is not respected within the world of the U.S or many other places when it comes to the way that Jewishness is considered.
 
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This is true, but times are changing due to the new economic and political changes that make parts of Africa harder to live in- and Israel seems a more prosperous option.



Indeed. I'd argue, though, that in many ways, it was SET UP that way.

I'm reminded of Malcom X --who was one of the greatest speakers against Zionism during its day---and almost 45 years ago, the imminent human rights advocate, Malcolm X, had some very insightful things to say about Zionism and its intended impact on the global struggle for freedom and self-determination (especially in the Asian and African world). and as said by him in one of his quotes---taken from the Egyptian Gazette (17 September 1964):
The Zionist armies that now occupy Palestine claim their ancient Jewish prophets predicted that in the "last days of this world" their own God would raise them up a "messiah" who would lead them to their promised land, and they would set up their own "divine" government in this newly-gained land, this "divine" government would enable them to "rule all other nations with a rod of iron."

If the Israeli Zionists believe their present occupation of Arab Palestine is the fulfillment of predictions made by their Jewish prophets, then they also religiously believe that Israel must fulfill its "divine" mission to rule all other nations with a rod of irons, which only means a different form of iron-like rule, more firmly entrenched even, than that of the former European Colonial Powers.

These Israeli Zionists religiously believe their Jewish God has chosen them to replace the outdated European colonialism with a new form of colonialism, so well disguised that it will enable them to deceive the African masses into submitting willingly to their "divine" authority and guidance, without the African masses being aware that they are still colonized.

CAMOUFLAGE

The Israeli Zionists are convinced they have successfully camouflaged their new kind of colonialism. Their colonialism appears to be more "benevolent," more "philanthropic," a system with which they rule simply by getting their potential victims to accept their friendly offers of economic "aid," and other tempting gifts, that they dangle in front of the newly-independent African nations, whose economies are experiencing great difficulties. During the 19th century, when the masses here in Africa were largely illiterate it was easy for European imperialists to rule them with "force and fear," but in this present era of enlightenment the African masses are awakening, and it is impossible to hold them in check now with the antiquated methods of the 19th century.

The imperialists, therefore, have been compelled to devise new methods. Since they can no longer force or frighten the masses into submission, they must devise modern methods that will enable them to manouevre the African masses into willing submission.

The modern 20th century weapon of neo-imperialism is "dollarism." The Zionists have mastered the science of dollarism: the ability to come posing as a friend and benefactor, bearing gifts and all other forms of economic aid and offers of technical assistance. Thus, the power and influence of Zionist Israel in many of the newly "independent" African nations has fast-become even more unshakeable than that of the 18th century European colonialists... and this new kind of Zionist colonialism differs only in form and method, but never in motive or objective.

At the close of the 19th century when European imperialists wisely foresaw that the awakening masses of Africa would not submit to their old method of ruling through force and fears, these ever-scheming imperialists had to create a "new weapon," and to find a "new base" for that weapon.

DOLLARISM

The number one weapon of 20th century imperialism is zionist dollarism, and one of the main bases for this weapon is Zionist Israel. The ever-scheming European imperialists wisely placed Israel where she could geographically divide the Arab world, infiltrate and sow the seed of dissension among African leaders and also divide the Africans against the Asians.

Zionist Israel's occupation of Arab Palestine has forced the Arab world to waste billions of precious dollars on armaments, making it impossible for these newly independent Arab nations to concentrate on strengthening the economies of their countries and elevate the living standard of their people.

And the continued low standard of living in the Arab world has been skillfully used by the Zionist propagandists to make it appear to the Africans that the Arab leaders are not intellectually or technically qualified to lift the living standard of their people ... thus, indirectly "inducing" Africans to turn away from the Arabs and towards the Israelis for teachers and technical assistance.

"They cripple the bird's wing, and then condemn it for not flying as fast as they."

The imperialists always make themselves look good, but it is only because they are competing against economically crippled newly independent countries whose economies are actually crippled by the Zionist-capitalist conspiracy. They can't stand against fair competition, thus they dread Gamal Abdul Nasser's call for African-Arab Unity under Socialism.

MESSIAH?

If the "religious" claim of the Zionists is true that they were to be led to the promised land by their messiah, and Israel's present occupation of Arab Palestine is the fulfillment of that prophesy: where is their messiah whom their prophets said would get the credit for leading them there? It was Ralph Bunche who "negotiated" the Zionists into possession of Occupied Palestine! Is Ralph Bunche the messiah of Zionism? If Ralph Bunche is not their messiah, and their messsiah has not yet come, then what are they doing in Palestine ahead of their messiah?

Did the Zionists have the legal or moral right to invade Arab Palestine, uproot its Arab citizens from their homes and seize all Arab property for themselves just based on the "religious" claim that their forefathers lived there thousands of years ago? Only a thousand years ago the Moors lived in Spain. Would this give the Moors of today the legal and moral right to invade the Iberian Peninsula, drive out its Spanish citizens, and then set up a new Moroccan nation ... where Spain used to be, as the European zionists have done to our Arab brothers and sisters in Palestine?...

In short the Zionist argument to justify Israel's present occupation of Arab Palestine has no intelligent or legal basis in history ... not even in their own religion. Where is their Messiah?


Powerful when I learned of it---and on the issue, very much striking to consider...as the FACT is that most of the leading members of the Zionist movement (and founders of Israel) were ATHEISTS who viewed themselves as international “socialists.” And as the British MP George Galloway correctly opined, “They were doing exactly what white people who were not Jewish were doing all over the world at the same time. They were founding a colonial settlement.” Many of the things that went down are very similar to what often occurred when a dominant power would want territory for itself---procedding to play two oppressed groups against each other...and then playing off of it, while giving themselves plausible cover to one of the groups /others on the outside as if they're the innocent benefactor.


This is what often went down with the Spainards when it came to the Americas and how they played American Indians against Black Slaves---seeing how often they'd both join forces in other conditions to both achieve freedom..and succedded well in most circumstances. Causing strife was one way to set the stage for control---and likewise, many oppressed groups saw the same thing happening in the formation of Israel.

For the decision of the western powers to establish the State of Israel (where they did) was not by mere happenstance...as it was done deliberately to insure that the state would be a source of perpetual instability in the Arab, Jewish and Muslim world – and within operational range of the African continent. In many ways, it could be said that Israel is allowed exist as it is, and to have gotten away with some of the worst violations of international law in modern history, because some in high places have determined that it serves U.S. and European interests (no matter the human cost to the Palestinian people...or Jews).



It's an interesting topic and I think the whole Satmar/NK angle can also be fit in there somewhere. As a Messianic, I understand the historical basis for the development of Zionism, but I also know that only the Messiah will ever restore the land in peace. But, this is politically incorrect on this forum.
More than understand where you're coming from.....as what you're saying is what many of the Orthodox Jews said when complaining on the State of Israel being created/others calling that the "PROMISED LAND/ZION" (especially seeing how it came into being).

Curious as to what is the Satmar/NK angle, as I've never heard of it (I think)

Spread the word!
Already doing so


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I'm going to check it out! [/color][/font]

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Cool to know. Let me know what you think when you do...
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I'm Sephardi/Ashkenazi mix.
Cool to hear, as I do love the Hybrids!!!

To share more background on myself, my Great-Grandfather is Caucasian (possibly with some Jewish...as others with Jewish in them have said they sensed it somehow..but it's not a definate as in any DNA tests showing anything were done since it was mainly speculation based on what has occurred with cultural diffusion/crypto-Jews hiding identity---and the Jews who told me it was a possibility of having some Jewish in my Great-Grandfather mainly said such due to what they said they sensed spiritually in me)......as his father was Irish Sailor who moved to Barbados/fell in love with a Bajan Woman and had my Great-Grand Father. From there, my Great-Grandfather moved to Jamaica/met my great-grandmother....and then they moved to Panama during the building of the Panama Canal....producing all those on the Hispanic side of my gene-pool....and hence, why I have white, hispanic, west indian in me. My mother's father---married to my grandmother (who was one of my Great Grandfather's kids)---was a Black Hispanic, who's father was Chineese. And my biological Father has Black Foot Indian.

Complicated, I know...part of being a Mutt :)(and some of this I've shared before elsewhere, seen here and here ). Had it happen once where I brought my Great-Grandparents to my highschool graduation--seeing how often specific others would mock whenever they'd ask me to share my background...not believing people could really be diverse--and when my Great-Grandfather was sitting on one of the benches, no one ever suspected he was related to me due to how he looked. Got a bit frustrated considering how others seemed to be ignorant on the ways cultures can be multi-faceted.....but you learn to live with it/be thankful for the diversity, as I'm glad to be a Gentile with multi-cultural roots :)

To be honest this has been the only interesting thread on this forum for about a year. I enjoy the wealth of knowledge that you are willing to share
Glad to be a blessing---as the feeling of shared knowledge is mutual, seeing the many things you've said here on this forum for years. I wish I had known about it earlier whenever I was posting on other forums--such as what I did when at the CARM Forums for Messianic Judaism..under the name of Double-G (G²).

But I'd disagree on "interesting thread", as I've seen some that really got my attention over the year. Probably should've commented

It was a long time ago.

.
Got ya.I think one of the "I"s is meant to represent us, and the other "I" represents God, so the "I & I" is one's relationship with God, I think.
Oh, I agree 100%. God redeems whatever He wants. But, you can't tell that to some of the other posters around here.
More than understand---as its the same on the boards at CARM. For some examples that you can review on your own time, one can go visit threads such as Holidays: Christmas and Easter (near the middle/toward the end of the thread), Um...you guys aren't legalistic are you? , alongside Can anyone else see this? and many others like it.

And on the issue, I've brought up more in-depth discussion on the matter elsewhere---as it relates to concepts such as Hip Hop Culture, for example, and other seeking to bring in Christ within that Genere...as that's an intimate part of the sub-culture I hail from within Black Culture. The one group I'm referring to is one known as Hazakim (Hebrew for "Strong Ones")--as they're a Messianic Jewish Rap Duo that has taken alot of heat within the Jewish world for being Holy Hip Hoppers..and for being one of the best defenses in the musical genere of celebrating it within the church.

Seeing the group in action within Hip Hop is intriguing---for as it relates to the OP with Rasta/ Reggaee, many are unaware of the Jamaican ROOTS behind the Hip Hop Genere. One can go no further than studying DJ Kool Herc, as he is is largely credited as the “father of hip-hop”.

When asked by hip-hop historian Davey D what hip-hop is, Herc gave the following answer:


tumblr_l11zpxoIeP1qaz1g3o1_400.gif

“Hip Hop... the whole chemistry of that came from Jamaica... I was born in Jamaica and I was listening to American music in Jamaica... My favourite artist was James Brown. That's who inspired me. A lot of the records I played was by James Brown. When I came over here I just put it in the American style and a perspective for them to dance to it… I'd find out where the break in the record was at and prolong it and people would love it... the rhyming came about because I liked playing lyrics that were saying something.”
With that said, it was amazing to see how Messianic Jewish Rap group made a song utilizing the musical style of the Reggaee genere that was BRILLIANTLY amazing...known as Kadosh (Conclusion).





If you are unfamiliar with Hebrew, kadosh is the word for Holy, so that when Isaiah saw the glory of the LORD, he heard the seraphim say, “Kadosh, Kadosh, Kadosh.....”. When the intro started, there were clips of someone speaking about the holiness of God, but when the reggae artist started speaking “Kadosh! Kadosh! Holy Holy! , I couldn't help but go "WOW..they actually did that as Messianic Jews." To be clear, "Hazakim" is my favorite Christian Rap group.....connected with other solid Messianic Jewish believers like Dr.Michael Brown and others...and I've discussed some of this elsewhere---as seen in #3/ #130 and #112 .And as said here on these forums:​

Easy G (G²);54173102 said:
Shalom!!!!
I was writing concerning the issue of Messianic Judaism and it's connections with culture/diversity that many people do not realize. And on the paticular issue I wanted to bring up here, what was on my mind for discussion was an issue that tends to hit close to home for me many times.



I'm very much glad for many of the things that I've been able to experience within the Messianic Jewish camp--though as a Black Hispanic and one very much in favor of many of the things I experienced when I grew up (such as Hip Hop/Urban Culture), it always seemed to be a bit of a big gap for me in regards to trying to discover Hebraic/Talmudic roots-----while at the same time, remaining true to my hearts for the street....and for a good while, I thought that perhaps that would be something that could never be addressed.



That is, of course, until I discovered a group awhile ago known as Hazakim.



For an interview on who they are, go here to "What Does Hazakim Mean?"



To hear their songs:​



l_c67d1b49ff2dc7e00684f7d9445dec1a.jpg






For those who do not know, Michael and Anthony Wray founded Hazakim ministries in 1997. Hazakim, Hebrew for "strong ones", is a music ministry whose purpose and intent is to proclaim the truths of God's word with a messianic edge. Due to an upbringing in the Messianic Jewish movement, as well as their multicultural roots which include Jewish ancestry, their music possesses a trademark Middle Eastern/Hebrew influence which sets them apart from other hip-hop artists.





IMHO, I think the best thing to hit Holy Hip Hop/Urban Culture yet is the group called "Hazakim" (Hebrew for "strong ones" ), it's amazing to see 2 Messianic Jewish kats blending worlds & representing Christ in Urban/Hip Hop culture while bringing back a Hebraic perspective on Scripture--which is needed seeing how much Holy Hip Hop seems to discuss everything else but that/the original Jewish culture. On their newest album that came out, , as one review said on the issue from "Hazakim - Theophanies | DaSouth.com" )​


Theophanies...what are they? What does God’s appearance have to do with God dwelling through the supreme revelation of His Son? Why was it that God thought it right for Jesus to live as a Jew, revealing the oracles of God through them? These can be some of the many questions that can be raised when coming across a topic that honestly, the majority of Christians have no clue exists.
Well, no longer do you have to wait to go to seminary to know what this means, for a group by the name of Hazakim (Jewish for “strong ones”) has come through with “Theophanies,” a project that was so long in the making that Phanatik on CMR’s last group album made mention of the wait! After listening to this album through and through I just have to say that the perspective given of the Gospel through Jewish men by Hazakim is needed, due to the fact that no one bothers with this. Either Reformed theologians keep it hushed, or some Charismatic misapply OT Scriptures and it’s time to get the record straight.
When the album starts, you’re not introduced to the rhyme flows yet, but an introduction. When I say an introduction, I mean something that was crafted because when you get into the use of violins and character narration of what the Jews were waiting for in a Messiah after seeing false Messiahs fall is something that helps you to see why the Pharisees were the way they were towards Jesus, even though they were wrong. Another thing that this establishes is the heart that Hazakim has towards unbelieving Jews.
Like I said up above, Christians have been chillingly silent towards Jews and the evangelism of Jews is something that should grieve any heart because there is next to zero efforts towards reaching people who can read the Law of Moses, and are veiled to the gospel of Christ. Many of us don’t really know of the treatment that has been shown towards the Jewish people, even by theologians that we have upheld from the Reformation
With that said, the production on this album has a noticeable Jewish flavor to beats, and it’s fitting that this influence is best noticed on the tracks “Genesis 18,” “Genesis 32,” “Exodus 3,” and “Judges 13” for these are the chapters in the Old Testament where the Theophanies took place. A theophany is an appearance of God towards man, which are the appearances to Abraham, Jacob, Moses, and parents of Samson. With these tracks they go forth in “lyrical theology” (thanks shai linne!) as they rap about the passage-titled songs. Besides the theophany tracks, there were some highly notable ones as well, such as “Salvation Plan,” “Passover Lamb,” “Crucifixion Description,” “Heavy Laden,” “Shamayim of Gold,” and even more!

“Salvation Plan” is just a song that you will consider to be classic to the extra degree. I was glad that Hazakim saved this beat for themselves, and was also very excited to hear Stephen the Levite absolutely rip his verses!

The topic of this song was very well spoken on, for it dealt with the reason for the sacrificial system and how God laid out His salvation plan. “Crucifixion Description” is a track that everyone has heard of through the very moving video put together with this song, which explains the medical things that Christ went through on His way to offering Himself as the ultimate sacrifice for our sins. Although physical pain was the least of the sacrifice that Jesus offered, for He became sin even in not ever falling prey to it, it was apart of what Jesus did to free us from sin and it’s effects in the end.

Honestly, was a bit disappointed when seeing the lack of response---but oh well.
I like the info on this post of yours...great stuff
Thanks.

We should definately talk sometime---and if interested, hit me up via email (Ggreaves103@comcast.net )and I can give you my number so we could possibly chat it up personally...if interested.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I enjoyed these articles very much. While I agree that some Jewish musicians preach a certain kind of righteousness which is commendable I don't think it is righteousness in the Biblical sense...just a thought.
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Curious, by the way, as to what aspect of the articles I listed earlier did you enjoy---as it relates to the Jewish Musicians and Reggaee....

47_razhartman.jpg

And in line with that/the OP, do you personally know of any who've been considered Jewish Rastas or Rasta Jews?
 
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Easy G (G²);55395367 said:
Indeed. I'd argue, though, that in many ways, it was SET UP that way.

I'm reminded of Malcom X --who was one of the greatest speakers against Zionism during its day---and almost 45 years ago, the imminent human rights advocate, Malcolm X, had some very insightful things to say about Zionism and its intended impact on the global struggle for freedom and self-determination (especially in the Asian and African world). and as said by him in one of his quotes---taken from the Egyptian Gazette (17 September 1964):

I think Mr X was overly influenced by voices unsympathetic to people of other races when he converted to Islam. His tone became elitist after that event. His militancy is typical of his time (and I would argue necessary to bring serious attention to the disparity of the American situation) but I find his lack of sensitivity towards the Jewish people saddening, yet unfortunately typical of Muslim speakers.

To reduce the return of Jews to Israel into a political phenomenon seeking to colonise and oppress is an exercise in agenda driven sloganeering emptied of any real truth or light. The situation is more complex and possibily even more spiritual than that.

You should check out Obsession - Radical Islam's War Against The West and heed some of the chapters of the history of anti-semitism by Muslims in Palestine prior to WWII and their participation in the Nazi war cause. Unfortunately Mr X fell into their hands by projecting the righteous struggle for human rights in the USA onto the Muslims in Palestine, forgetting that this was also a struggle for Jewish human rights worldwide- but then again, Muslims are being trained into anti-semites and this began way back.

Curious as to what is the Satmar/NK angle, as I've never heard of it (I think)

OK....well those views are well represented here.
 
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Easy G (G²);55395311 said:
As a Black Hispanic/growing up in the black community, I've often seen in the Black community many instances of friction with support of the State of Israel/ignoral of Palestinian thought...especially when others say all Jews should support the State of Israel while simultaneously claiming to many of those blacks of Jewish descent that they were not truly "Jewish"--causing another level of friction. The encounters of Africans and Black Americans who live in the Jewish community have always been fascinating to me, whether it be because they are Jews by birth or conversion, and its a trip when seeing how others are treated who came to Israel in order to work or study. In the USA, thousands of Black Jews formed distinct groups while others joined traditional Jewish communities...and all of these men and women affirm their identity without forgetting their African origins and culture.....even when it includes orgins that include Palestinian backgrounds as well. Each one, in their own way, expresses a Black Jewishness, which finds its place within the diversity of Judaism.

A few comments- Jewish identity is one of those never-ending topics. Basically, however, I think the Jewish community alone has the final right to declare who is or isn't a Jew.

Secondly, I heard somewhere that there was a problem in NYC between the African American community in some place with the local Jews- something to do with a car accident. Do you know anything?

Thirdly, isn't President Obama's brother in law a Rabbi?
 
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I think Mr X was overly influenced by voices unsympathetic to people of other races when he converted to Islam. His tone became elitist after that event. His militancy is typical of his time (and I would argue necessary to bring serious attention to the disparity of the American situation) but I find his lack of sensitivity towards the Jewish people saddening, yet unfortunately typical of Muslim speakers..
More than agree with you when it comes to Malcom X and his being overly influenced by other unsympathetic---though in all fairness, his militancy was no more extreme that that of the Zionists who said that force should be used to establish the Nation of Israel..with ZERO sympathy toward the natives (i.e. Palestinians) and others in the way. And thankfully, when he broke away from the Nation of Islam, he became much more softer in his views....even beginning to gain convergence with the views of Martin Luther King--who actively worked with Jewish people.

To reduce the return of Jews to Israel into a political phenomenon seeking to colonise and oppress is an exercise in agenda driven sloganeering emptied of any real truth or light
Disagree----as when studying the historical views involved in Zionism, it seems more than clear. that POLITICS was heavily involved in it....and for many who often make it seem like it was all the hand of God, there may be a bit of romanticizing the past.

One can already see the great dispartiy that has gone down for ages with those of Jewish descent who are Black--and them noting in Israel how much politics seems to be a big play in things that not many will acknowledge.

On the historical/practical realities others often leave out, Didn't want to be exhaustive on the issue when it comes to recording all that happened historically--though I've done so elsewhere before...and will do so if asked, as in researching the matter/seeing the testimonies and seeing what both Jews/Palestinians say on the matter on how much injustice went on, its hard to miss.

On the historical background that involves oppression---as discussed by both Jew and Non-Jew---I don't have room in this specific posting..but if interested, I'll make another with the info given on it. Perhaps it'll be another discussion within a discussion...or the starting point for a new thread entirely.

To be fair.....To say that the return of the Jews was without SPIRITUAL significance would be error, though...and with the Spiritual/Political aspects being renconciled, I'd argue that there must be an Israel..and scripture notes that at one point it will return in a state of UNBELIEF in the Messiah or His ways...which would lead to much violence/war AND doing things God said He hated.

It is possible that the land having others come back to it in disbelief has not been seen yet and was never intended to have others come back to it in the way/manner in which the nation has been established. On the issue, one view that comes to mind is what the scriptures also discuss---in line with the reality of multiple gatherings--that there are many for the view of 2 worldwide gatherings that believe the present state of Israel is in no way a fulfillment of those prophecies that speak of a worldwide regathering in faith in preparation for blessing...but rather a fulfillment of those prophecies that speak of a worldwide regathering in unbelief in preparation for judgement. Ariel Ministries discussed it best, IMHO, as seen in their article entitled THE MODERN STATE OF ISRAEL IN BIBLE PROPHECY.....concerning the passages of scripture that deal with the issue.
You should check out Obsession - Radical Islam's War Against The West and heed some of the chapters of the history of anti-semitism by Muslims in Palestine prior to WWII and their participation in the Nazi war cause. Unfortunately Mr X fell into their hands by projecting the righteous struggle for human rights in the USA onto the Muslims in Palestine, forgetting that this was also a struggle for Jewish human rights worldwide- ....
Appreciate the reference...

Though on the issue, where others often leave out is the fact of how many Muslims were NOT anti-semitic toward Jews and there were actually good relations going on between the groups....and for those MANY Muslims who have never been Anti-Semetic, they get blasted as if they're all the same. Some of it I remember discussing elsewhere---as it relates to Arab Nations that actively took care of/lived in peace with the Jews. For more, one can see the threads entitled Jews, Arab Christians or Muslim Arabs? . ...and others such as "Standing with Israel" /Obama calls for a return to pre-1967 Israel, which specifically deal with the dynamic of Zionism and mindsets that say its permissible for the Jewish people to be violent in the pursuit of controlling the Promise Land and how many (be it Jewish Christians, Gentile believers or Non-Christian Jews and others) have debated whether there's even a right to figthing based on the Torah.

One of the best scholars on the issue that I know of is a man known as Elias Chacour. There was a book I read by him earlier this year.... entitled Blood Brothers ..and for a brief description of the book, here's what one reviewer noted:http://www.voicesofisraelandpalestine.com/chacour.php3


In Blood Brothers, Chacour blends his riveting life story with historical research to reveal a little-known side of the Arab-Israeli conflict and the birth of modern Israel. He touches on controversial questions such as: " What behind-the-scenes politics touched off the turmoil in the Middle East? " What does Bible prophecy really have to say? " Can bitter enemies ever be reconciled? In a world of tension and terror, this book offers hope and insight that can help each of us learn to live at peace



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The book was something I attempted discussion on over in other areas such as as well as discussing some of the issue when it came to a discussion on Biblical Manhood/The Party of the Zealots.


Moving on, The book "Blood Brothers" really serves to show how amazing it is to witness how much of the perspective is left out since all are focused on what Israel is dealing with now----nevermind how much UNRIGHTEOUSNESS it was founded in, with one persecuted group becoming the persecutors. It has been nothing short of amazing reading the book/checking the documentation....and seeing what went down for many Arabic Believers/Jewish believers alike (as many Jewish believers were persecuted/killed by the Zionist Army controlling the State of Israel for supporting Palestinians in giving them jobs)......and the author, who's a Palestinian Christian, astounded me with his deep love for Palestinians and Jews alike. One can go online/look up the man at "Voices for Palestine" ) .
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For a brief description of the man who wrote the book, "Blood Brothers"
Elias Chacour became a priest in the Melkite Catholic Church, which dates back to the Byzantine period and Constantine. Father Chacour is a man of faith, of the Christian faith. He is also a Palestinian. It is often assumed that all Palestinians are Arabs and are Muslims. However, this is a very incorrect assumption. There are actually between twelve and fourteen million Arab Christians in the world, and many of them live in Palestine, and are thus often called Palestinians.

By combining the history of Christianity in the Middle East with a new perspective on Bible prophecy and the Zionist movement, Chacour offered a gripping account of what really happened at the birth of modern Israel...and its one that I think it far too often neglected.



For another one of his books one can consider, one can go find his book entitled "We Belong in the Land"---concerning more extensive, historical documentation on the issue of the formation of the Middle East Crisis....



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It may bless you, concerning more of the backdrop. Shalom..




And for more info on the author of "Blood Brothers"..as it relates to his views on Israel/Palestinian Crisis, one can go to the following videos:







Another kat that I thought you'd enjoy investigating is one by the name of Joseph Raya. He worked very deeply/closely with Elias Chacour in the work for peace in the Middle East----being a very controversial/radical figure in the church, as well as being one who was a very close associate of Dr.Martin Luther King in the Civil Rights era....helping to organize marches/often suffering alongside other blacks... as he was twice beaten badly by the Ku Klux Klan.. Here's a Video clip of Archbishop Raya leading a peaceful protest, 1972-08-14 --and on a side note, his working with Martin Luther King is very significant, seeing that Martin Luther King was HIGHLY ecumenical in his dealings. He worked with Muslims just as much as he worked with Jews...And with the Civil Rights Era, what Martin Luther King was able to do was astounding...for even with camps that were often RADICALLY different from one another/not agreeing on all points, they managed to come together....and how can one avoid the fact that KING himself drew from a MYRIAD of resources/wisdom to accomplish what he did? For he was known to support much Liberal thought---and worked with others from a myriad of perspectives, whether with Jewish Rabbis like Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel or with Arabic Believers such as Joseph Raya--or even someone such as Bayard Rustin, who was very important behind the scenes for the Civil Rights movement even though he was openly gay. King learned of the actions of Mahatma Gandhi from that man.....with it shaping the the thoughts of Martin Luther and others who stood with them during their revolutionary movements.



OK....well those views are well represented here
Got ya, as the name threw me off.

As it stands, there's already enough out there on the issue from true JEWISH believers that understand the realtiy of the "political" Israel not being true Israel. And for ones to look up:

  • The Israeli Refuser Movement
    • The movement for soldiers of the Israeli Defence Force (IDF) refusing to serve in the Occupied Territories
  • Jews NOT Zionists
    • Torah-true Jews against Zionism. In their words, "Any form of Zionism is heresy from the Torah viewpoint and the so-called 'State of Israel' is illegitimate. Menu includes links and quotes to Anti-Zionist Jewish organizations and statements, and the wisdom of Judaism on the Middle East Quandary.."
  • Neturei Karta International (Jews United Against Zionism)
    • Guided by the rabbis of our time and under the inspiring leadership of the late Reb Amram Blau, the Neturei Karta refuse to recognize the right of anyone to establish a "Jewish" state during the present period of exile. They are Orthodox Jews who condemn Zionism and the brutal treatment of the Palestinians as a heresy and violation of the Torah.
 
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Desert Rose

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I am into full-on trance dance culture , so i've seen/met some that play in Doof, or Tribal Dance, etc. psy-festivals in israel. Honestly, they all are music and music only- oriented. THe religious part is such a mixture of oriental, near east, africal, reincarnation, indian,judaism and such beliefs that it woudl be hard for me, for one, to take rastanim( rastafarians) as anything related to my personal views of G-d. I saw this boy play, hes pretty wild. white rastafarian :)

A Yiddisher Rasta man - Israel Culture, Ynetnews

But thats all my personal, very limited experience (with rastas in the Land only i mean) I never been to Jamaica :)

To add: they are rarely seen as halachic Jews. And many confiuse them with ephiopians, who , honeslty, do put an effort into being considered as such, unlike rastafarians

THis culture is more hippie oriented, even though that idea they all are heavy homer ( marijuana) users is an urban legend
 
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