Regardless of politics, vote against Trump on moral grounds

Would you vote for Donald Trump?

  • He is my first choice.

    Votes: 4 11.1%
  • He is in my top three.

    Votes: 2 5.6%
  • I will vote for him if he is the nominee in the general election.

    Votes: 5 13.9%
  • I will not vote for him under any circumstances.

    Votes: 25 69.4%

  • Total voters
    36

David Vogel

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This is an article I wrote elsewhere, but I'm reposting the whole thing here for discussion.

It is time for evangelical Christians to unite to actively pray that Donald Trump does not win the Republican presidential nomination.

This isn’t about policy. The Bible leaves room for disagreement and debate over important political questions. But this is about character, and about whether serious character flaws should be disqualifying for the presidency of the United States. This is about a candidate who claims to be a Christian and asks for Christian support, yet lives a testimony of vulgarity and unrepentant sin. And it’s about our testimony, as Jesus’ followers, if Donald Trump wins with Christian votes.

When Bill Clinton was in office, we said character mattered in a president. Did we mean it? Because Donald Trump is the guy who decided that what his casino really needed was a strip club. Trump is the guy who thinks violating marriage vows is something to be proud of, boasting about “my experiences with women, often seemingly very happily married and important women.” Yet Trump says he has never asked God for forgiveness for anything.

Marriage vows aren’t the only ones Trump has broken. His business career is littered with broken promises that hurt contractors and employees, and he routinely lies about self-funding his campaign.

Another Trump lie came when he denied mocking a disabled reporter who had been critical of him, even though the moment was caught on video. That sort of petty cruelty and vulgarity are par for the course for a candidate with a habit of dropping the crudest obscenities at campaign rallies and personally typing out childish Twitter insults at anyone who irritates him. When Proverbs warns of the fool whose “anger is known at once” (Proverbs 12:16) and who is “hasty in his words” (Proverbs 29:30), it’s hard not to see Donald Trump in the warnings.

If it is possible for deep, unrepentant character flaws to disqualify any candidate, onald Trump is that candidate. And the fact is, Trump simply cannot win without the support of professing Christians. That means either he loses or we get to explain to our children why Jesus’ followers elected a vulgar, perverted, arrogant fool to be president of the United States. If Trump wins, it’s partially on us. This isn’t just about our country; it’s about our testimony.

Christians have lost credibility in public debates over issues like abortion and the sanctity of marriage because the culture, and even our children, don’t think we really mean it. They’ve seen the American church sacrifice principle for power too many times. If Christians pull the lever for Donald Trump this election, what are we telling a watching world we really care about?

If the idea of reading newspaper headlines saying “Christians Elect Donald Trump” troubles you (and that is exactly what the headlines would say), then do something about it. Inform yourself by reading the links above and share this article with friends so they know the facts about who Donald Trump is. But, more importantly than that, pray. Trump’s victory or defeat rests in the hands of our fellow believers–who also read their Bibles, who also pray, who also try to follow the Lord’s will. In coming weeks, I am going to be praying hard that God will give his people real discernment into the character of Donald J. Trump. I hope you’ll join me.


The original post is at http://davidvogel.net/2016/02/15/we-need-to-pray-against-donald-trump/

PrayAgainstTrump_sm.png
 

Chesterton

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This isn’t about policy. The Bible leaves room for disagreement and debate over important political questions. But this is about character, and about whether serious character flaws should be disqualifying for the presidency of the United States.

I've said this from the beginning. Yes it's about character (as well as deficiency of intelligence, IMO).

Welcome to CF, hope you stick around. :wave:
 
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Sistrin

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Welcome to CF, hope you stick around.

I wouldn't bet on it.

It is time for evangelical Christians to unite to actively pray that Donald Trump does not win the Republican presidential nomination.

Back on January 19th The Blaze ran a similar piece authored by Matt Walsh entitled:

Dear Christians, If You Vote For A Godless Man, You Are Asking For Tyranny

Source: http://www.theblaze.com/contributio...for-a-godless-man-you-are-asking-for-tyranny/

My response to that article would be the same as to this one. First, I have to wonder where this argument was prior to the 2008 election, when electing a godless narcissist was all the rage.

This is an argument not crafted to champion the moral clarity of you as the author, but one crafted specifically to foster opposition to Trump by shamelessly playing on the religious ardor of the faithful. Telling Christians they are not being Christian if they vote for Trump. Jesus said "occupy until I return." Given that context what world do you think we live in?

You plead for support of a man of faith and integrity in the White House. Ok, I agree. But can you truthfully name one politician running for President known for his or her steadfast Christ-like virtues? Apparently not, as apparently that isn't as important as guilt-tripping Christians into abandoning any support for Trump.

Trump may be a narcissist but at least he admits it. I would rather see him elected than the Cruella Deville/Myra Hindley clone heading the Democrat side of the house.
 
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I will say that the fact that man does or does not own clubs will not get him from getting my vote.
Genuinely curious what you mean. Could you elaborate? Strip clubs aren't a moral issue? Or personal morality doesn't affect how you vote? Or personal morality matters but owning strip clubs isn't a serious issue to you?
 
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Genuinely curious what you mean. Could you elaborate? Strip clubs aren't a moral issue? Or personal morality doesn't affect how you vote? Or personal morality matters but owning strip clubs isn't a serious issue to you?
In fact it is not. Whether or not as an adult ( age 24) I go to strip clubs or any club that serves alcohol for that matter is my choice. It is perfectly legal and as such the way I see it if you ( general) do not want to give them your business then fine but assuming that someone is of age ( usually 18 or 21) and is not hurting anyone then they should be able to give any business they want money.
 
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Chesterton

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This is an argument not crafted to champion the moral clarity of you as the author, but one crafted specifically to foster opposition to Trump by shamelessly playing on the religious ardor of the faithful.

Know what? I didn't even read beyond David's first paragraphs. I saw the words "don't vote for Trump" followed by "this is about character" and that was enough for me to agree. I didn't read on about the more specific morality stuff. If I were an atheist I still would oppose Trump based on his character.
 
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David Vogel

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You plead for support of a man of faith and integrity in the White House. Ok, I agree. But can you truthfully name one politician running for President known for his or her steadfast Christ-like virtues? Apparently not, as apparently that isn't as important as guilt-tripping Christians into abandoning any support for Trump.

Trump may be a narcissist but at least he admits it. I would rather see him elected than the Cruella Deville/Myra Hindley clone heading the Democrat side of the house.
I get the sense you think I'm arguing folks should vote Democratic? I have to laugh... I would never in a thousand years vote for either Clinton or Sanders. Terrible policies, plus Clinton is basically an ethical black hole. And I don't expect any politician to be perfect. Personally, I generally assume they are all worse than they appear. But isn't there a difference between "only vote for the guy with 'steadfast Christ-like virtues'" (what I'm not saying) and "don't vote for the guy who brags about adultery, drops the F-bomb at campaign rallies, and is a strip-club-casino pioneer" (what I am saying)?
 
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Thursday

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This is an article I wrote elsewhere, but I'm reposting the whole thing here for discussion.

It is time for evangelical Christians to unite to actively pray that Donald Trump does not win the Republican presidential nomination.

This isn’t about policy. The Bible leaves room for disagreement and debate over important political questions. But this is about character, and about whether serious character flaws should be disqualifying for the presidency of the United States. This is about a candidate who claims to be a Christian and asks for Christian support, yet lives a testimony of vulgarity and unrepentant sin. And it’s about our testimony, as Jesus’ followers, if Donald Trump wins with Christian votes.

When Bill Clinton was in office, we said character mattered in a president. Did we mean it? Because Donald Trump is the guy who decided that what his casino really needed was a strip club. Trump is the guy who thinks violating marriage vows is something to be proud of, boasting about “my experiences with women, often seemingly very happily married and important women.” Yet Trump says he has never asked God for forgiveness for anything.

Marriage vows aren’t the only ones Trump has broken. His business career is littered with broken promises that hurt contractors and employees, and he routinely lies about self-funding his campaign.

Another Trump lie came when he denied mocking a disabled reporter who had been critical of him, even though the moment was caught on video. That sort of petty cruelty and vulgarity are par for the course for a candidate with a habit of dropping the crudest obscenities at campaign rallies and personally typing out childish Twitter insults at anyone who irritates him. When Proverbs warns of the fool whose “anger is known at once” (Proverbs 12:16) and who is “hasty in his words” (Proverbs 29:30), it’s hard not to see Donald Trump in the warnings.

If it is possible for deep, unrepentant character flaws to disqualify any candidate, onald Trump is that candidate. And the fact is, Trump simply cannot win without the support of professing Christians. That means either he loses or we get to explain to our children why Jesus’ followers elected a vulgar, perverted, arrogant fool to be president of the United States. If Trump wins, it’s partially on us. This isn’t just about our country; it’s about our testimony.

Christians have lost credibility in public debates over issues like abortion and the sanctity of marriage because the culture, and even our children, don’t think we really mean it. They’ve seen the American church sacrifice principle for power too many times. If Christians pull the lever for Donald Trump this election, what are we telling a watching world we really care about?

If the idea of reading newspaper headlines saying “Christians Elect Donald Trump” troubles you (and that is exactly what the headlines would say), then do something about it. Inform yourself by reading the links above and share this article with friends so they know the facts about who Donald Trump is. But, more importantly than that, pray. Trump’s victory or defeat rests in the hands of our fellow believers–who also read their Bibles, who also pray, who also try to follow the Lord’s will. In coming weeks, I am going to be praying hard that God will give his people real discernment into the character of Donald J. Trump. I hope you’ll join me.


The original post is at http://davidvogel.net/2016/02/15/we-need-to-pray-against-donald-trump/

View attachment 169864


How could anyone justify voting for Hillary?

She is the least moral candidate running.
 
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Sistrin

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I get the sense you think I'm arguing folks should vote Democratic?

And that would be wrong. My issues were as stated. If being a Christian should preclude me from voting for Trump, then it precludes me from voting for any of the remaining Republican candidates as well. There are certain issues our nation is facing which only Christ himself could solve using Christ-like values. My opinion is until He returns we don't have the luxury of burying our heads in the sand and hoping someone is elected who will actually address them with even a little backbone.

But isn't there a difference between "only vote for the guy with 'steadfast Christ-like virtues'" (what I'm not saying) and "don't vote for the guy who brags about adultery, drops the F-bomb at campaign rallies, and is a strip-club-casino pioneer" (what I am saying)?

Agreed, Trump is a narcissist. However the next time Islamic terrorist kill a bunch of Americans his response won't be to grovel before Islam and then wail about new gun laws.
 
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David Vogel

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How could anyone justify voting for Hillary?
I couldn't and wouldn't. But we aren't in the general election yet. My hope is that Christian voters nominate another candidate so nobody has to make a Trump vs. Hillary choice.
 
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Thursday

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I couldn't and wouldn't. But we aren't in the general election yet. My hope is that Christian voters nominate another candidate so nobody has to make a Trump vs. Hillary choice.

I agree. I'm fine with any of the other republicans, even Kasich!, but my choice would be Cruz or Rubio.
 
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Chesterton

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Agreed, Trump is a narcissist. However the next time Islamic terrorist kill a bunch of Americans his response won't be to grovel before Islam and then wail about new gun laws.

Oh sure it will. He'll grovel, he'll do whatever he finds expedient. He's made a career of bragging about breaking promises and not living up to his own tough talk. He won't be able to build a wall. He'll say "oh, my hands are tied. Congress won't let me, EPA won't let me." What on God's green earth makes you think he'll live up to any of his bold talk?
 
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Although many Christians don't understand this, the US is not a Christian nation. In fact, God does not have the same relationship with any nation as He did with the nation of Israel. That's not how things work.

We are dual citizens and when we conflate our citizenship in the Heavenly kingdom with our citizenship in this earthly kingdom, we end up with all kinds of confusion.

I can vote for Trump regardless of his sin because I am not voting for an elder in my church. I'm also not voting for someone to establish Christianity as a state religion. Again, that's not how God's kingdom works, and it's also in violation of the Constitution.

I must choose among sinful men when I vote for president. . . I have no other choice.

"Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” (John 18:36)​
 
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