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Regarding Genesis 3:22-24

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Noscentia, Jun 15, 2018.

  1. Noscentia

    Noscentia Member

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    Genesis 3:22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

    In Genesis 3:22, God seems to express concern at the possibility that Adam could potentially eat from the fruit of the tree of life as he did from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, an act which would make Adam immortal. Right after this in verse 23 it's written: "therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden..." The usage of the word 'therefore' in this context seems to suggest that not only was it possible that Adam could have eaten the fruit from the tree of life, but that it was at least somewhat because of that concern that God cast Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden. Is the text saying that there could have been a different outcome where Adam did eat from the tree of life? Could Adam have not eaten from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Am I reading this correctly or is there something I'm misunderstanding about the text? Any and all relevant insights or discussions would be appreciated.
     
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  2. TuxAme

    TuxAme Quis ut Deus? Supporter

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    If God hadn't evicted them from Eden, sure.

    Sure- since Adam had (and has) an immortal and rational soul, he had the free will not to. But God ultimately knew that he would.
     
  3. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    Take into account, God only forbade them from eating from ONE TREE, all of the other trees of the Garden they were allowed to eat, therefore it could be understood, that Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Life on a regular basis, and God knowing this, knew the greater possibility was, they would continue.
     
  4. ewq1938

    ewq1938 It's easy to say anything but hard to say nothing. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Adam had a choice and he chose wrongly. What the passage also teaches us is that Adam was never immortal, but could have been had he eaten from the tree of life. I don't believe God would have allowed that to have happened because Adam was created to be mortal and wasn't meant to have immortality.
     
  5. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    What makes sense to me is the idea that it's not a single instance of eating of the tree of life that gives immortality, but rather an ongoing eating of the tree of life. Being cut off from the tree of life Adam would eventually die.
     
  6. Chinchilla

    Chinchilla Well-Known Member

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    There was post about it like week ago if I remember correctly .

    IMO
    If Adam ate that fruit from tree of life he would be not able to die but would suffer endlessly with his falling apart body .
    He could eat from that tree freely before he choose to sin against God . We don't know if he ate but he could . He could not eat it / eat anymore after he sinned against God for his own good , so God hide that tree and kicked them out of Garden of Eden .

    Tree of life is back for healing of nations during millenium kingdom . People who reject futuristic view of that kingdom don't accept that statement tho.

    Imo that tree will be so people can live again just as long as Adam , because child will die 100 years old meaning somebody who choose to sin won't be able to eat from that tree and die like 100 years old and will be considered a child compared to how long everybody else will live . (Isaiah 65:20 , Revelation 2:7 )
     
  7. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Simul Justus et Peccator Supporter

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    Agreed, I believe it was a mercy from God that He prevented that from happening.
     
  8. Noscentia

    Noscentia Member

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    I appreciate everyone's help thus far, but I'm mostly looking for answers to these questions I asked in the original post. However I think I can boil it down to the last question which I think gets to the heart of it:

    Could it have been possible for Adam and Eve to have not eaten from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

    I guess the underlying issue I'm trying to get at is about determinism vs libertarian free-will. I've been going through verses like these considering such issues. Again, thanks to everyone for replying.
     
  9. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Simul Justus et Peccator Supporter

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    Our progenitors had a kind of liberty that we do not, because they were not yet fallen (like we are). So yes, I believe that our first parents were truly free to decide whether to obey or disobey God. He knew what they were going to do, of course, but He didn't make or cause them to disobey Him, that's a choice they made all by themselves.

    Yours and His,
    David
     
  10. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Yes, and his physical body would have then remained immortal (Genesis 3:22), even though he was spiritually in a sinful state.

    This possibility of Adam's body remaining immortal should be taken seriously, just as the extremely-old ages of the individuals in Genesis (e.g. Genesis 5:5-32, Genesis 11:11-25) should be taken seriously, and everything else in the Bible should be taken seriously (Matthew 4:4; 2 Timothy 3:16). There is no reason not to. For even science has found that, just naturally, some multi-cellular organisms do not experience senescence (see "Biological Immortality"). And it is possible for human cell cultures to live much longer than the current maximum human lifespan of about 120 years (cf. Genesis 6:3). Indeed, human cell cultures can be made to live indefinitely, so that they become "immortal cells". This is accomplished by causing them to express the telomere-lengthening enzyme telomerase, so that the cells do not shorten their telomeres when they divide (normal cells do shorten them, causing the cells to die when their telomeres get too short). The problem with this is that the cells become cancerous. But God would know how to prevent that, even if humans do not yet know how (cf. Luke 18:27).

    Perhaps the "tree of life" (Revelation 2:7) produces a fruit which contains a substance which, when eaten, causes human cells to express telomerase, without causing cancer.

    -

    That is, while Jesus Christ is the life (John 14:6), the source of Christians' eternal life spiritually (John 3:16), the Tree of Life could be a literal tree, the fruit of which will be for the eternal life of obedient Christians' future, physical resurrection bodies (of 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39, Romans 8:23-25); just as Adam's physical body would have lived forever if he had eaten of the Tree of Life, in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:22). The leaves of the Tree of Life could also help to speed the healing (Revelation 22:2b) of Christians' resurrection bodies if they are injured by accident.

    And Christians may still have to eat other foods for their nourishment, even after their physical resurrection, just as even angels may have to eat (Psalms 78:25).

    Having to eat food is a good thing. For it is a daily reminder of our dependence upon God for our continued existence (Acts 17:28, Matthew 6:11). This will be important to remember especially after the resurrection of obedient Christians into immortal physical bodies, so that Christians do not become proud and rebellious against God, like happened with the angelic being Lucifer (Isaiah 14:12-15).

    So in the eternal state, Christians could still eat, work, and play. They may not have to sleep, however, as their eternal bodies and brains may be able to maintain themselves without sleep.

    Also, the Christians in the literal city of New Jerusalem, in the eternal state on the future, New Earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5), as in a new surface for the earth, will still have free will. For God wants real children (Revelation 21:7), not robots. But because of their continued free will, it will be possible for Christians in New Jerusalem to sin. But they will not ever have to sin, just as Christians now do not ever have to sin (Romans 6:17-22).

    If a Christian in the eternal state does commit a sin, what will happen to him will depend upon what he does next. If he repents, he will be forgiven (1 John 1:9). If he refuses to repent, he will be chastened (Revelation 3:19). And if he still refuses to repent, he will end up in the lake of fire (Hebrews 10:26-27).

    The lake of fire will exist on the New Earth, outside one wall of New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:14-15, Revelation 21:8). A lot else will also exist on the New Earth. For a new race of humans will be created along with the New Earth, which race will fall into sin and mortality, although they will then normally die at advanced ages (Isaiah 65:17,20). Christians of the present earth could become like the angels of the New Earth, in the sense that they could minister to the elect members of the new race of humans, like how angels now minister to the elect humans on the present earth (Hebrews 1:14).
     
  11. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Yes, in one sense, because of free will. But no, in another sense, because of God's omniscience. That is, God already knew before He even created Adam that Adam would eventually eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

    God is definitely omniscient, for in Him is found all knowledge (Colossians 2:2b-3; 1 John 3:20b). He is able to declare the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10), and His foreknowledge is determinate (Acts 2:23, Revelation 1:1). But His omniscience coexists with His giving people free will. He still lets people choose for themselves what they are going to do (Joshua 24:15, Deuteronomy 30:19, Isaiah 1:19-20, Philemon 1:14).

    An analogy for how people can have a meaningful free will, and yet God can already know what they are going to choose to do, would be a symphony conductor who wanted to make a film of a "Free Will Symphony" which sounded good enough to show off to the world. So he told his symphony musicians his plan, set up a movie camera in front of them, and said that each of them could start playing whatever he or she wanted for an hour. But when they all started playing, it sounded awful for the whole hour. It was utter cacophony. So the conductor sent them home and told them to come back the next day and try again. The next day sounded worse than the first. And the day after that was also bad. This went on day after day for months, until one day the most amazing sound arose from the symphony, a congeries of all of the different melodies and rhythms which was unlike anything that anyone had heard before. So the conductor kept the movie of that day, and showed it off to the world.

    But when the symphony musicians began watching the movie at its world premiere, with all of the most-famous musicians of the world seated around them in the theater, some of the symphony musicians began to squirm in their seats. For example, one of the bass players had happened to choose that day (the day that the movie was made) just to stand there and not play anything. The movie showed him eating Twix, and just staring off into space for the whole hour. And one of the violin players had just happened to choose that day not to play anything either, but to file her nails and flip through a magazine.

    After the movie was over, those two musicians, as well as some others who had been publicly mortified, filed a civil suit against the conductor for defamation of character. At the trial, they testified before the judge: "Before the movie was shown, we all had good reputations as fine musicians. Now we are the laughingstocks of the musical world. Our careers might never recover from this. The conductor knew before he showed the movie to the world that it would result in our ruin, and yet he showed it anyway. Clearly, his intent was malicious, and we seek damages".

    But then the conductor testified: "Your honor, I honestly had no malice toward these musicians. The procedure of making the film was quite random. We made scores of different films, and in many of them, these musicians played brilliantly. But the sound of the symphony as a whole on those days was unbearable to listen to, so those films had to be rejected. It was just by chance that the one day which sounded wonderful, they happened to have made fools of themselves by their own free will. They themselves chose to act that way that day. I didn't make them do anything".

    The judge agreed and dismissed the case. He told the musicians: "I'm sorry, but you don't really have a legal leg to stand on. For you knew that the conductor was making a film of that day, and that the plan was to show it off to the world if it sounded good. It is your own fault that you chose to act the way you did that day" (cf. James 1:13-15).

    Similar to this analogy, before God created the world, He could have reviewed an infinite number of different threads (as it were) of all the possible free-willed sequences of events which could occur in the world, based on all of the possible choices each individual could make during his or her lifetime. For example, in one thread, right after God created Adam, Adam could have chosen first to walk around the south side of the Garden of Eden, while in another thread, Adam chose first to walk around the north side, and in another he chose first just to sit on the grass and look at the trees, and so on through all of the different possibilities for his first choice, and then through all of the different possibilities for all of his subsequent choices, and then through all of the possible choices made by everyone else from the beginning of the world to the end of it. After reviewing the infinite number of threads of all the possible sequences of free-willed choices, God could have chosen to create, to bring into actual existence, that one thread which would give Him the best opportunity to eternally show both His mercy and His holy wrath (Romans 9:22-23).

    Also similar to the movie analogy is the scientific idea of the "block universe", meaning that time, from the viewpoint of physics in itself (that is, outside of how humans happen to experience time), there is no arrow of time: The past, present, and future of all space in the universe exist as one block of a four-dimensional space-time. So the past still exists, and the future already exists. This is similar to how all of the frames of a movie, all its moments of time, exist at the same time in one reel of film (or in one data file), and yet we humans happen to experience a movie only one frame at a time, and in one direction. Also, with regard to the "block universe", quantum-level experiments have shown that the future determines the past as much as the past determines the future. So from the viewpoint of Christians, this means that they can pray for God's will to be done in the past, just as they can pray for it to be done in the future. For example, if they remember a close call in their past when they just barely escaped having a car accident, they can presently pray that God would keep them from having that accident, and this could help them to avoid it. That is, they could have avoided it because years later they prayed to avoid it.
     
  12. nonaeroterraqueous

    nonaeroterraqueous Nonexistent Member

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    It doesn't say that at all. What the text does say is that eating of the forbidden fruit would cause him to die. Then, after having eaten it, the text says that eating another fruit would cause him to live. It's as simple as a light switch. If you flip it down, then you'll be plunged into darkness. Having flipped it down, you can come back into the light by flipping it up again. You're standing there in the darkness claiming that it proves that you were never in the light, which strikes me as patently false. Your Adam has to stand there with his thumb on the switch to keep the light on, and it will fall down and plunge him into darkness if he ever takes his thumb off of it.
     
  13. ewq1938

    ewq1938 It's easy to say anything but hard to say nothing. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    It conveys that Adam is not immortal and the way to become immortal was to eat from the tree of life.

    Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
    Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
    Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

    Adam was created from the dust of the Earth...he was mortal. Scripture confirms this:

    1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

    Being of the Earth is Earthly, mortal. A created man is contrasted by the Lord from Heaven. Adam died a spiritual death when he sinned...obviously not a literal death since he lived a long time. He was never immortal and may never be depending on if he was ever forgiven for this terrible sin.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2018
  14. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Adam was immortal until he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. For it was only the eating of it which made him mortal:

    Genesis 2:17 . . . of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    This was not a false statement. For it meant that eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil would make Adam mortal that same day. That is, from that day forward, he would surely die, eventually. Also, even though Adam lived almost 1,000 years (Genesis 5:5), to God even 1,000 years are like one day (2 Peter 3:8).

    Do not think that bodies made of the dust of the Earth cannot be immortal (Luke 24:39).

    --

    Also, Christians need to be careful not to be deceived by the Gnostic/antichrist lie that Christ is not in the flesh (2 John 1:7), and that Christians will not forever be in the flesh. For the Bible shows that on the third day after His death (Luke 24:46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4), Jesus Christ was not resurrected as a disembodied spirit, but in his human, flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39, Hebrews 2:17). That is why His tomb is empty (Matthew 28:6), and why He still has the wounds of the crucifixion on His resurrection body (John 20:25-29). And Luke 24:39 did not stop being true once Jesus ascended into heaven. For He will remain forever the human mediator/high priest of Christians (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 7:24-26), in human flesh, just like they are in human flesh (Hebrews 2:17). And when He returns, He will still have the wounds of the crucifixion on His resurrection body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).

    Gnosticism mistakenly thinks that flesh is evil in itself, and that only pure spirit can be good. But Jesus Christ proves that flesh is not evil in itself, for He has been made flesh (John 1:1,14, Romans 1:3, Luke 24:39), and remains without sin (Hebrews 4:15). Genesis also proves that flesh is not evil in itself, but was created by God as something very good (Genesis 1:31). Adam and Eve were flesh, for they were the progenitors of the human race alive today. And they were immortal before they fell into sin, for it was only their falling into sin which made them become mortal (Genesis 2:17). So Adam and Eve started out as immortal flesh. And so the future resurrection (if dead) or changing (if alive) of Christians into immortal flesh bodies like Jesus has (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39, Romans 8:23-25) will be God allowing them to partake of the original, immortal-flesh condition of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden before their fall into sin.

    Also, beware the more-general Gnostic lie that even the entire physical universe is evil in itself, and that only a purely-spiritual heaven can be good. For this lie is employed by Gnosticism to wrongly revile the Creator God YHWH as an evil, tyrant, lesser god, whom Gnosticism says created the physical universe to be the foul prison house of human spirits, whom Gnosticism says by mistake fell from bliss in a purely-spiritual heaven down into the physical universe, and became trapped in suffering, fleshly bodies. No doubt the future Antichrist will employ this lie as part of his utter reviling of YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). But Genesis shows that our physical world was created by YHWH as something very good (Genesis 1:31).

    And the Bible shows that the whole plan of Creation was not that humans, who are both flesh and spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23, Luke 24:39), would become purely-spiritual ghosts and float forever on clouds in a purely-spiritual heaven with God, but that God would become both flesh and spirit like man (John 1:1,14), and that God would ultimately come down from heaven to live with man on a future, New Earth (Revelation 21:1-4), as in a new surface for the earth, just as God had walked on the earth in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:8). Also, on the New Earth, Christians will be allowed to eat from the literal tree of life (Revelation 2:7, Revelation 22:2,14), just as Adam and Eve had not been forbidden to eat from it in their unfallen state (Genesis 2:9,16-17). So, with regard to Christians, God will completely undo the effect of the fall of Adam and Eve. Christians will be able to live in an earthly, physical paradise forever with God (Revelation 2:7), just as Adam and Eve and their descendants might have done, had not Adam and Eve fallen into sin.

    So beware the Gnostic lie. Beware the Antichrist.
     
  15. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    I have a feeling, this verse should be added to your list.

    Rom 8:3
    For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

    It is not the Bodily Flesh of a man that is evil, it is the Sinful Nature of man which is evil.

    Paul calls the Sinful Nature of man ( The Flesh -The Old Man - The Body of Sin)

    Eph. 4:22
    That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

    Col. 3:9
    Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

    Rom. 6:6
    Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

    This Body of Sin, the Old Man is, the Flesh Paul speaks of, (The Sinful Nature.

    But this Flesh which Paul speaks, is not the Physical Flesh on our bones.
     
  16. ewq1938

    ewq1938 It's easy to say anything but hard to say nothing. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    No, but he didn't literally die so that death was non-literal. You claim Adam was immortal.....prove it.

    Immortality is a reward. It isn't just given to someone. Scripture also says one must die to become immortal anyways.

    1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
    1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:


    Adam was NEVER IMMORTAL. That is a unscriptural falsehood.


    That was AFTER the resurrection. Was Christ's body immortal before the cross?? The answer is NO.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2018
  17. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    Is it your understanding, Adam would have died even if he had not eaten of the Tree?

    If so, is there a Scriptural basis for this understanding, not just the fact he was of the dust of the ground, because that would require a conclusion, without sufficient evidence.

    Adam died Spiritually that day.

    Gen 2:16,17
    16) And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
    17) But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    In the future Adam did die Physically as God had told him he would.

    Is the Tree of Life in the Garden, it says that Adam could freely eat of every tree in the garden except (ONE), can we not assume Adam did eat of the Tree of Life?
     
  18. ewq1938

    ewq1938 It's easy to say anything but hard to say nothing. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Yes. He was mortal.


    Yes he did.


    God told him he would die the day he sinned, not the future so God was talking about a spiritual/symbolic death not a literally bodily death.

    HE could of but that doesn't mean he did...and the wording about him being able to be immortal IF he eats from the tree but it being barred from him suggest he hadn't eaten it. He choose the bad fruit over the good fruit IMO. I do not believe he ate from the tree of life, and then from the other tree.
     
  19. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    How about the understanding, as long as Adam did not eat of the Tree of Evil, he could eat of the Tree of life, it would not affect his being immortal because he already was, but once he ate of the Tree of Evil He died Spiritually, and at that same time he gained knowledge that only God had.

    Therefore, by then eating from the Tree of Life he would have Life in himself and be as God having the knowledge of Good and Evil and possessing eternal Life, and thereby becoming equal to God himself.

    But understanding that before Adam gained this knowledge of Good and Evil it was not an Issue if he ate of the Tree of Life, it was by his gaining of the forbidden knowledge that was the problem.
     
  20. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    How do we know God didn't mean both types of death, God didn't stipulate, one but not the other.

    If the wording suggests Adam hadn't eaten of the Tree of Life, why doesn't the wording also suggest that he did eat of the Tree of Life because it says.

    Gen 2:16,17
    16) And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
    17) But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    We all know the Tree of life and the Tree of the Knowledge Good and Evil were both in the Garden, therefore there is a suggestion that Adam did eat of the Tree of Life FREELY.

    It's 4:30am where I am, I'm going to bed.

    Be Blessed.
     
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