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Featured Refuting fake convert to Islam

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by Al Masihi, May 7, 2018.

  1. GeorgeTwo

    GeorgeTwo Member

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    There is one thing that is certain and that is that your Allah is not the One True God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the God introduced by God's Messiah, Jesus.
     
  2. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    The point, my friend, is that Muslims treat it as though it is a proper name for theological reasons, while Arabic-speaking Christians and Jews do not, because our theology is different than Islam's on this point. So you are correct if you are talking about Christians and Jews, but incorrect if you are talking about Muslims.
     
  3. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Mithra has nothing to do with Christian theology the two faiths were practically in competition. Mithra was originally a guardian angel or Yazata in Zoroastrianism that the Romans turned into a deity and his cult soon spread across the Roman Empire. All references for the cult of Mithra also pretty much after Christianity had already become widespread in the Roman Empire. Islam however contains many practices that have nothing to do with the Abrahamic faiths unlike Christianity or Judaism which still bare connections and practices like each other. Islam however stands out even a non believer could see that Islam stands out when you compare it to the other two Abrahamic faiths. Islam also contains many aspects taken from heretical Christian sects and agnostic faiths, it also has striking parallels to Zoroastrianism, and there is proof that Muslims literally copied stories from the Avesta and Gnostic sects unto Islam and the Quran.
     
  4. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    From what little I have read, it seems like the Armenians before their conversion to Christianity shared in Mithras worship with some of their brothers the Zoroastrian Persians (Armenians have been present in Persia since long before the revelation of Christianity, and Armenian territory was within the Persian sphere of influence for many centuries; indeed, as you will read at that link, the Arascid dynasty under which Armenia became a Christian nation was a Parthian Zoroastrian dynasty). It seems strange then that they would convert to the religion that the Persian elite most distrusted (see: the story of St. Behnam and his sister or any of the other Persian martyr acts, the East Syrian Synod of Dadisho', etc.) , or indeed that it would even be the religion that is so distrusted if Christianity is really just Mithraism dressed up. (This is all in addition to there being absolutely no evidence for that, as Al Masihi rightly pointed out.)

    Isn't it funny how Muslim claims against our religion can be shot down with about three seconds of background reading, and yet they make them anyway? What an intellectually lazy people. Don't just believe whatever dumb conspiracy theory idiots like "Dr." Zakir Naik are probably feeding you, Muslims!
     
  5. GeorgeTwo

    GeorgeTwo Member

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    I KNOW Muslims think Allah is a proper name.
     
  6. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    Oh, okay. Forgive me. That was not clear to me from your reply.
     
  7. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There is direct evidence that the story of Mohammed in Isra and Mi’raj was copied from the Zoroastrian book of Arda Viraf, the five daily prayers and Islamic practice of washing before prayer are all Zoroastrian practices. The Zoroastrians literally have names for their prayers that correspond to the Islamic ones with near exact timing as well. The theology of Jesus not being crucified and being a prophet came from heretical Syriac and Gnostic sects, the Quran also contains Syriac words in it and contains lots of loan words from languages like Persian and Syriac, anyone who has studied the Quran will notice the buried ruins of heretical Gnostic Syriac texts under the texts and words of the Quran that worked as it’s foundation.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2018
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  8. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    Yes, my friend. I have a book in my personal library called The Foreign Vocabulary of the Quran by an English academic Arthur Jeffrey. It was originally published in the 1930s, but has been republished since then because no subsequent study has outdone it. It contains hundreds and hundreds of examples of exactly that -- borrowed terms from Syriac, borrowed terms from Persian, etc. Nevermind being "clear Arabic", as it claims to be (16:103) -- a lot of the time, it is not even Arabic at all, but something stolen from previous people and presented as original.

    This is what I like about Christianity: while the degree to which it is directly relatable to Judaism is debatable, as certainly Jews would not consider Christianity a sect of Judaism anymore (since it isn't; sorry, Judaizers such as modern 'Messianics'), we at least cite our sources in so far as keeping alive the idea of worshiping the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is concerned, even if the modern Jews don't agree that we're actually doing that. We do not pretend that nobody before our religion could have gotten anything right, as Muslims like to pretend (except the select figures they cherry pick and call "hanif", without even usually realizing that the East Syriac cognate of this word, hanpa -- from which the word was borrowed into Arabic -- means 'pagan'! Here is a Muslim guy saying that this strengthens the Qur'an somehow), and while we may consider Abraham et al. to be in some sense 'proto-Christians' (as per the link), we do not therefore claim that they were not Jews but some other, third type of thing, out of a desire to malign the past. Islam is inherently destructive in that way, since it relies on the past being corrupted, while in Christianity we say that we see now fully/clearly, whereas in the past things were seen in shadow, but with the coming of Christ all has been revealed. (This is the meaning of the opening of the altar veil in Oriental Orthodox services, just by the way: it is the revelation of God to us, so abouna will pray "We worship you O Christ, with Your good Father, and the Holy Spirit, for You have come and saved us" as he opens the veil, as you can see here; I don't know if EO also have veils...I have only seen doors in EO churches, not veils, but no doubt they have similar prayers done before their altars.)

    This is a huge difference, don't you think? One religion says "The past must be destroyed, because it is corrupt", while the other says "The past points to the eternal reality of what has always been, and is revealed in Christ Jesus, the Messiah and Son of God and Savior and Redeemer of all peoples."

    I don't know...I am obviously biased towards one, but the Islamic view is so negative, and obviously easy to refute even by their own hadiths! (Where Muhammad says to the Jews of Yathrib after they bring him the Torah that he believes in it and in the One who sent it...no modern Muslim would say that! It's corrupted!)
     
  9. Godistruth1

    Godistruth1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Shall we present our proofs? I'm warning you, you dont want to go forward with this! You said we borrowed stories from Avesta and Gnostic sects. Please provide proof.
    Now here is documentary about Jesus as Mithras


    You see by lying about islam you are actually hitting your own foot by axe.
    Please make sure the source is reliable not christian websites/videos
     
  10. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    What vapid garbage to present as proof. Why would you listen to such nonsense? As though it is somehow not possible to find similar pseudo-documentaries on Islam. Will you believe those too? Don't be so gullible.

    Maybe you should go back to Hinduism, since that's what YouTube tells me your religion is based on anyway...


    The Vedic Hindu roots of Islam (pt. I)


    The Vedic Hindu roots of Islam (pt. 2)

    Note that I do not actually believe these videos to be accurate, but if you're going to present similar silliness as though it somehow proves something about Christianity, it is only fair that you also realize how easy it is to find any theory that says anything about anything. We must be more discerning than that and not simply fall for whatever conforms to our prejudices or seems interesting or compelling to us.

    The "Jesus/Christianity is a rip off of Mithras/Osiris" idea is so incredibly tired, worn out, and stupid that it has been debunked hundreds of times over by both popular and academic sources. Here's what an actual specialist in the history of religions has to say on the popular YouTube channel Religion For Breakfast, since you apparently trust YouTube videos:



    Here's a straightforward comparison between Mithras and Christianity, with copious references (including some, like Justin Martyr, dating back to the time when Mithraism was still an active religion):

    Mithras and Christianity

    Please do your research before posting things that are blatantly false. This was not hard information to find.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2018
  11. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Claim: Mithras was born of a virgin on December 25th, in a cave, attended by shepherds
    Truth: Mithras was actually born out of solid rock, leaving a hole in the side of a mountain (presumably described as a “cave”). He was not born of a virgin (unless you consider the rock mountain to have been a virgin). His birth was supposedly celebrated on December 25, however most of sources detailing his birth were written after Christianity had already become widespread, hinting its followers might have actually copied Christianity. Shepherds are part witnessing his birth and helping Mithras emerge from the rock, but interestingly, the shepherds exist in the birth chronology at a time when humans are not supposed to have been yet born. This, coupled with the fact the earliest version of this part of the Mithraic mythology emerges one hundred years after the appearance of the New Testament, infers it is far more likely this portion of Mithraism was borrowed from Christianity rather than the other way around.

    Claim: Mithras was considered a great traveling teacher and master
    Truth: There is nothing in the Mithraic tradition indicating he was a teacher of any kind, but he was could have been considered a master of sorts. This would not be unexpected of any deity, however. Most mythologies describe their gods in this way.

    Claim: Mithras had 12 companions or disciples
    Truth: There is no evidence for any of this in the traditions of Iran or Rome. It is possible the idea Mithras had 12 disciples is simply derived from murals in which Mithras is surrounded by twelve signs and personages of the Zodiac (two of whom are the moon and the sun). Even this imagery is postChristian, and, therefore, did not contribute to the imagery of Christianity (although it could certainly have borrowed from Christianity).

    Claim: Mithras promised his followers immortality
    Truth: While there is little evidence for this, it is certainly reasonable to think Mithras might have offered immortality, as this is not uncommon for any God of mythology.

    Claim: Mithras performed miracles
    Truth: Of course this is true, as this too was not uncommon for mythological characters.

    Claim: Mithras sacrificed himself for world peace
    Truth: There is little or no evidence this is true, although there is a story about Mithras slaying a threatening bull in a heroic deed. But that’s about as close as it gets.

    Claim: Mithras was buried in a tomb and after three days rose again, and Mithras was celebrated each year at the time of His resurrection (later to become Easter)
    Truth: There is nothing in the Mithraic tradition indicating he ever even died, let alone resurrected. Tertullian did write about Mithraic believers re-enacting resurrection scenes, but he wrote about this occurring well after New Testament times. Christianity could not, therefore, have borrowed from Mithraic traditions, but the opposite could certainly be true.

    Claim: Mithras was called “the Good Shepherd”, and was identified with both the Lamb and the Lion
    Truth: There is no evidence that Mithras was ever called “the Good Shepherd” or identified with a lamb, but since Mithras was a sun-god, there was an association with Leo (the House of the Sun in Babylonian astrology), so one might say he was associated with a Lion. But once again, all of this evidence is actually post New Testament; Mithraic believers may once again have borrowed this attribute from Christianity.

    Claim: Mithras was considered to be the “Way, the Truth and the Light,” and the “Logos,” “Redeemer,” “Savior” and “Messiah.”
    Truth: Based on the researched and known historic record of the Mithraic traditions, none of these terms has ever been applied to Mithras with the exception of “mediator”. But this term was used in a very different from how Christians used the term. Mithras was not the mediator between God and man but the mediator between the good and evil gods of Zoroaster.

    Claim: Mithraic believers celebrated Sunday as Mithras’ sacred day (also known as the “Lord’s Day,”)
    Truth: This tradition of celebrating Sunday is only true of Mithraic believers in Rome and it is a tradition that dates to post Christian times. Once again, it is more likely to have been borrowed from Christianity than the other way around.

    Claim: Mithraic believers celebrated a Eucharist or “Lord’s Supper”
    Truth: Followers of Mithras did not celebrate a Eucharist, but they did celebrate a fellowship meal regularly, just as did many other groups in the Roman world.

    What’s similar between Christianity and Mithraism?
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2018
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  12. Godistruth1

    Godistruth1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    First the videos are privately made and no authenticity can be attributed to it.
    Second, yes there are similarities between Hinduism and islam and islam with other religions because there were books given to mankind from the time of Adam. There were around 140000 prophets sent by God to tell them to believe in One God only and worship him. People changed the original message from God. Even in Hindu scriptures you will see it says God is one and God has no image.
     
  13. Godistruth1

    Godistruth1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Source for what you said?
     
  14. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Based on the fact there’s no proof from any ancient sources which confirm that Mithraism has any similarities to Christianity.
     
  15. Debp

    Debp New Member

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    I agree...just because someone claims they were a Christian doesn't mean they were actually a true, born again believer. Because once you are regenerated by the Holy Spirit, I can't understand anyone turning away from Christ and what He has done in one's heart and life.

    There's a saying...."Just because you go into a church doesn't make you a Christian...just like going into a garage doesn't make you a car!"
     
  16. Debp

    Debp New Member

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    I know a former Muslim who says the Bible speaks to him, he loves that.
     
  17. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    Where is the supposed 'authenticity' of your videos? They're not attributable to anything greater than outdated and long-refuted speculations. In reality, the supposed similarities between Mithraism and Christianity are mostly conjecture on the part of the people suggesting them, as is shown in the comparison and commentary at the Tertullian.org link. Check the sources given there, and remember what is said in the Religion for Breakfast video (researched and hosted by a Ph.D. candidate in comparative religion): there is no evidence for the claims that Mithraism and Christianity or Mithras and Jesus share the characteristics that are often claimed in Zeitgeist-type videos such as the ones you have posted here.

    You've missed the point, which was again that you can find documentaries on anything. That does not matter, and is not evidence in itself of anything.
     
  18. GeorgeTwo

    GeorgeTwo Member

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    Christians worship only one God.
     
  19. GeorgeTwo

    GeorgeTwo Member

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    Excellent research.
     
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  20. GeorgeTwo

    GeorgeTwo Member

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    Muslims do not seem to know that Christianity is embedded in Judaism, not pagan religions.

    Scriptures and their fulfillment can be found here:

    Did Christianity copy from pagan or other religions? | CARM.org

    Doesn't the religion of Mithra prove that Christianity is false? | CARM.org

    Why do Christians celebrate the birth of Christ on December 25th?

    The New Testament provides no precise information concerning the year of Jesus' birth. A fixed point from which to start is the fact that Jesus was born before the death of Herod the Great. According to Matthew 2:1-9, Herod was troubled by the arrival of the Wise Men asking where the king of the Jews had been born. From Josephus we learn that Herod died on or before Passover, A.U.C. 750 (that is, on or before April 4, 4 B.C.). How long before this date Jesus was born is not known. Matthew and Luke tell of certain events that occurred between his birth and Herod's death, including the presentation at the temple 40 days after his birth, the visit of the Wise Men, the flight into Egypt, and the murder of the male children in Bethlehem. Whatever view is taken of the order of these events they can scarcely have occupied less than 2 or 3 months. Therefore the birth of Jesus took place no later than January of 4 B.C. or December 5 B.C., and it may have occurred up to 2 years earlier, although this is highly doubtful.

    The custom of celebrating Jesus' birth on December 25th began in the 3rd or 4th century. It is questionable whether his birth was celebrated before that time, although we do know that the coming of the Wise Men was being celebrated on January 6 (Epiphany). The reason(s) for designating December 25th, as Jesus' birthday is not known.

    Some argue that the date was chosen because it was the date for the pagan celebration Dies Solis Invicti (Day of the Invincible Sun). This celebration honored the sun god. If this were true, the reason(s) would have been (1) December 25th is within the reasonable window of dates (between Dec. 5 & Jan. of the year 34 B.C.); (2) it would have provided Christians an alternative festival in place of the one held in honor of the sun god, which was associated with the pagan Mithra religion.

    Isaiah 7:14 "The Lord Himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son and shall call his name Immanuel." This was no ordinary name, for this was no ordinary child. Immanuel means "God with us." Therefore the child's name signified who the child was; this child was "God with us."

    We celebrate Christmas and the birth of Jesus because this day represents the promise and hope that God gave to all people on the face of the earth that day.
     
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