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Reformed Theology - Question "How Does God Choose?"
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I disagree with Major here: "...Scriptures are silent on this issue, and many other Scriptures contradict its message..."
While I promote that Scripture is the source and arbiter of truth for the believer, this does not mean that truth need not make sense. (True, it need not make sense to any man, for it to be true, but it does in the end make sense.) Scripture tells us that God is the Creator of all things, and for that to make sense, there are many corollary facts (that Scripture also teaches), such as that he is self-existent, and that he is not subject to any fact or principle that he does not of his own will subject himself to, (unless it be subjection to himself and his word --since that is his very nature --the attribute we refer to as "faithfulness".)
One principle he is not subject to, unless he subjects himself to it, is time. God does not, as such, operate within time, but "invented" it. (Scripture also verifies this --teaches it). As such, then, it may be that for him to foresee, is the same as to "forecause", and to avoid drawing this out longer than necessary, I will just say there is a lot more Scripture and reasoning showing other supporting facts of his timelessness, including the reference to Christ being slain from the foundation of the earth.
I say all this to show that while it may be unsavory to us to claim he created with the plan in mind to condemn some and to have mercy on others undeserving, it cannot be denied. Logically, I say, it makes no sense to say that the Creator would create *for the purpose of* destruction, and so I don't say he did. But to deny that this goes against his plan is neither logical nor Scriptural. So, Scriptures are not silent on this issue.
Every case in Scripture that friends and others have brought up to contradict this point, so far, to me, have fallen flat when context and mere language use are brought to bear --but that is a subject for another post. I just mention it to show what I mean by saying I disagree "other Scriptures contradict" it. I will say, that generally, all the passages taken to contradict it fall into these several categories: 1. "all" doesn't usually mean absolutely everybody that ever existed, in common use of language. 2. Many passages contextually show "all" to be everybody within a logical set, most commonly, (as seen by context), a reference to the elect. 3. Several passages involving the word "all" refer to the fact that all humanity falls within the overriding principle that if there is salvation, (redemption etc), it is through Jesus Christ. 4. Others that don't come to mind right now (it is early morning), are usually simply taken out of context and taken for how they sound alone. 5. Scriptures not specifically mentioning predestination or salvation, but referring to God's love and goodwill toward man, do not, unless in our own mind, necessarily rule out his predestining some to destruction. God is not like us. If we don't like this doctrine, it may well be we simply don't understand his love. 6. For what it is worth, I find most scriptures brought to bear against this belief, when studied well, turn out to be very strong support for this belief.
"Predestination" is a term for our use --we who are bound by time, but from God's view, the whole story was told and completed from the beginning, however long within time it took for it to happen. To me, this gives a better definition for all the things we consider subject to time.
God's creation is not just what we see now as developing and becoming visible, but what is already done, in Heaven.
Granted, now, that what I say is like what anyone says. It is just me talking, trying to convey a thought, and it is subject to the correcting by Scripture just like what anyone else says. Likewise, like any of us, I too am bound by my limitations, and, if what I believe about this is true, it still falls way short of the Truth of the matter. But I pray it at least helps point us towards the Truth.
While I promote that Scripture is the source and arbiter of truth for the believer, this does not mean that truth need not make sense. (True, it need not make sense to any man, for it to be true, but it does in the end make sense.) Scripture tells us that God is the Creator of all things, and for that to make sense, there are many corollary facts (that Scripture also teaches), such as that he is self-existent, and that he is not subject to any fact or principle that he does not of his own will subject himself to, (unless it be subjection to himself and his word --since that is his very nature --the attribute we refer to as "faithfulness".)
One principle he is not subject to, unless he subjects himself to it, is time. God does not, as such, operate within time, but "invented" it. (Scripture also verifies this --teaches it). As such, then, it may be that for him to foresee, is the same as to "forecause", and to avoid drawing this out longer than necessary, I will just say there is a lot more Scripture and reasoning showing other supporting facts of his timelessness, including the reference to Christ being slain from the foundation of the earth.
I say all this to show that while it may be unsavory to us to claim he created with the plan in mind to condemn some and to have mercy on others undeserving, it cannot be denied. Logically, I say, it makes no sense to say that the Creator would create *for the purpose of* destruction, and so I don't say he did. But to deny that this goes against his plan is neither logical nor Scriptural. So, Scriptures are not silent on this issue.
Every case in Scripture that friends and others have brought up to contradict this point, so far, to me, have fallen flat when context and mere language use are brought to bear --but that is a subject for another post. I just mention it to show what I mean by saying I disagree "other Scriptures contradict" it. I will say, that generally, all the passages taken to contradict it fall into these several categories: 1. "all" doesn't usually mean absolutely everybody that ever existed, in common use of language. 2. Many passages contextually show "all" to be everybody within a logical set, most commonly, (as seen by context), a reference to the elect. 3. Several passages involving the word "all" refer to the fact that all humanity falls within the overriding principle that if there is salvation, (redemption etc), it is through Jesus Christ. 4. Others that don't come to mind right now (it is early morning), are usually simply taken out of context and taken for how they sound alone. 5. Scriptures not specifically mentioning predestination or salvation, but referring to God's love and goodwill toward man, do not, unless in our own mind, necessarily rule out his predestining some to destruction. God is not like us. If we don't like this doctrine, it may well be we simply don't understand his love. 6. For what it is worth, I find most scriptures brought to bear against this belief, when studied well, turn out to be very strong support for this belief.
"Predestination" is a term for our use --we who are bound by time, but from God's view, the whole story was told and completed from the beginning, however long within time it took for it to happen. To me, this gives a better definition for all the things we consider subject to time.
God's creation is not just what we see now as developing and becoming visible, but what is already done, in Heaven.
Granted, now, that what I say is like what anyone says. It is just me talking, trying to convey a thought, and it is subject to the correcting by Scripture just like what anyone else says. Likewise, like any of us, I too am bound by my limitations, and, if what I believe about this is true, it still falls way short of the Truth of the matter. But I pray it at least helps point us towards the Truth.
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I just now read clear through this thread, and I've noticed one huge issue unanswered. It often occurs to me that when we get to Heaven we will "smack our foreheads with the heel of our hands" and say, "we were so stupid". Ok, no, not literally, but.... When we get there, it will be so obvious, I feel like we will many of us wonder how could we not have known! He has told us so often and in so many ways!
The issue I'm talking about is not so much how or whether or what predestination means, so much as the flavor of it --God's reason for doing what he did/does. We like to say that this or that in Scripture is "symbolic" or whatever, instead of just reading on. (It would probably do us all a world of good to just take in huge amounts of Scripture instead of always wanting to analyze every small passage, but that's off topic.) My personal take on the matter of God's purpose for creating in the first place has everything to do with who he chooses and who he does not. It is not like he created a pool of real souls to reach into at a whim, but what I like to think of as the very real and scriptural reason of making a dwelling place for himself. We are not only now, but in Heaven, the members of the Bride of Christ, I believe. And if I am wrong about this, I have no doubt what he has in mind is for his own Glory, not because we have something to add to his Glory, but that we will see his Glory, and he (and we) will take pleasure in that. Read Song of Solomon.
I feel like I shouldn't leave this alone without adding the thought that God leaves nothing to waste. Those who are created in his image but never make it to Heaven are part of what it takes to produce that place in heaven, that he is making us for even now.
The issue I'm talking about is not so much how or whether or what predestination means, so much as the flavor of it --God's reason for doing what he did/does. We like to say that this or that in Scripture is "symbolic" or whatever, instead of just reading on. (It would probably do us all a world of good to just take in huge amounts of Scripture instead of always wanting to analyze every small passage, but that's off topic.) My personal take on the matter of God's purpose for creating in the first place has everything to do with who he chooses and who he does not. It is not like he created a pool of real souls to reach into at a whim, but what I like to think of as the very real and scriptural reason of making a dwelling place for himself. We are not only now, but in Heaven, the members of the Bride of Christ, I believe. And if I am wrong about this, I have no doubt what he has in mind is for his own Glory, not because we have something to add to his Glory, but that we will see his Glory, and he (and we) will take pleasure in that. Read Song of Solomon.
I feel like I shouldn't leave this alone without adding the thought that God leaves nothing to waste. Those who are created in his image but never make it to Heaven are part of what it takes to produce that place in heaven, that he is making us for even now.
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Words such as those verses you quoted are asserting God's sovereignty. The Bible asserts God's sovereignty and attributes everything to God. This was the way of writing during biblical times, the people back then do not distinguish between whether good and evil is planned by God or allowed by Him, but instead, they attributed everything to Him, as if He caused it. This may sound illogical or bizarre to us today, but that was the way of writing back then.
Judaism and Christianity were not the only religions who assert God's sovereignty, other eastern orthodox religions did too. Ancient civilizations were more beholden to God. They made offerings to God or their gods and prayed for divine favours before harvest, for example. When they were sick, they pray for healings. However, such religious attitude became diluted over times. Today, people are less deferent and less fearful of divine elements, in part due to progress in science and technology. When people fall sick now, they see doctor and get treatment, instead of praying. As people change, language change, and the way of speaking or writing change too. We interpret the Bible with today's English and today's ideas, but the spirit of the original words are different. Even if we use concordances to look at the words in Greek and Hebrew, however, we will miss the spirit of the word if we are not aware of it. As we interpret literally, we miss the point.
Americans and Europeans tend to miss certain elements as they interpret the Bible using today's English. But if you have some idea of Eastern Orthodox religions, such as where I live now in Asia, you will be able to appreciate that religious manuscripts are not meant to be read literally. Their prose of writing is different.
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ICONO'CLAST
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deut7
6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
8 But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.
6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
8 But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.
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ICONO'CLAST
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sorry, this is unbelief.Words such as those verses you quoted are asserting God's sovereignty. The Bible asserts God's sovereignty and attributes everything to God. This was the way of writing during biblical times, the people back then do not distinguish between whether good and evil is planned by God or allowed bu Him, but instead, they attributed everything to Him, as if He caused it. This may sound illogical or bizarre to us today, but that was the way of writing back then.
Judaism and Christianity were not the only religions who assert God's sovereignty, other eastern orthodox religions did too. Ancient civilizations were more beholden to God. They made offerings to God or their gods and prayed for divine favours before harvest, for example. When they were sick, they pray for healings. However, such religious attitude became diluted over times. Today, people are less deferent and less fearful of divine elements, in part due to progress in science and technology. When people fall sick now, they see doctor and get treatment, instead of praying. As people change, language change, and the way of speaking or writing change too. We interpret the Bible with today's English and today's ideas, but the spirit of the original words are different. Even if we use concordances to look at the words in Greek and Hebrew, however, we will miss the spirit of the word if we are not aware of it. As we interpret literally, we miss the point.
Americans and Europeans tend to miss certain elements as they interpret the Bible using today's English. But if you have some idea of Eastern Orthodox religions, such as where I live now in Asia, you will be able to appreciate that religious manuscripts are not meant to be read literally. Their prose of writing is different.
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Isa 45:6
That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun
That there is no one besides Me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other,
Isa 45:7
The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and CREATING CALAMITY;
I am the LORD who does all these.
Isa 45:8
“Drip down, O heavens, from above,
And let the clouds pour down righteousness;
Let the earth open up and salvation bear fruit,
And righteousness spring up with it.
I, the LORD, have created it.
Isa 45:9
“Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker—
An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth!
Will the clay say to the potter, ‘What are you doing?’
Or the thing you are making say, ‘He has no hands’?
That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun
That there is no one besides Me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other,
Isa 45:7
The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and CREATING CALAMITY;
I am the LORD who does all these.
Isa 45:8
“Drip down, O heavens, from above,
And let the clouds pour down righteousness;
Let the earth open up and salvation bear fruit,
And righteousness spring up with it.
I, the LORD, have created it.
Isa 45:9
“Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker—
An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth!
Will the clay say to the potter, ‘What are you doing?’
Or the thing you are making say, ‘He has no hands’?
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God's perfect sovreignty allows Man's "free well" to choose within it.
The "FREE WILL" doctrine...VERSUS...the "ALL EVERYTHING" Attributes of God?
The spiritual GIFT of "free will" presents/allows Mankind with a spiritual CHOICE: ACCEPT or REJECT the spiritual CALLING/DRAWING of God.
1. The spiritual "free will" of Man and angels is allowed to operate within:
2. the all-everything perfect will of the TRI-UNE GOD.
Both doctrines are TRUE. They are not in conflict.
God FORE-KNOWS all. God does not irrevocably PRE-DETERMINE all.
The DOCTRINE of "Free Will" is TRUE, even though the exact "words" do not appear in the Bible.
The DOCTRINE of the "TRI-UNE GOD" is TRUE, even though the exact words "trinity" does not appear in the Bible.
1. God is a perfectly good spirit being, ...all knowing...all seeing...all present ...all powerful...all sovreign... etc.
2. God FORE-KNOWS all, who would be "saved" before they were ever born in the spiritual image of God. He does not irrevocably PRE-DETERMINE all.
3. God wants all Men's spirits to return to Him, and
none to be spiritually separated from the Kingdom of God for spiritual eternity in the "lake of fire"...."eternal life".
" Whosoever will may come, and becometh unto me I will in no wise cast out.”
4. God spiritually calls/draws.
Man has a spirit-led volition which allows Him to ACCEPT or REJECT
the undeserved gift of Grace through spirit-led Faith/Belief. (John 3 as explained in Ephesians 2)
5. God spiritually calls/draws. Man has a spirit-led volition which allows Him to ACCEPT or REJECT
the comfort and guidance of the permanently indwelling God the Holy Spirit after salvation. = the SANCTIFICATION PROCESS.
6. God gives Man the opportunities to CHOOSE...allowing the freedom to choose...free to follow the will of God...or not.
7. QED...voila: the "Free Will" of Man!
CHOOSE LIFE...
1 Chronicles 28:9...King David upon giving his kingdom to his wise son
“As for you, my son Solomon,
know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind;
for the Lord searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts.
IF you seek Him, He will let you find Him;
but IF you forsake Him, He will reject you forever.
Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today,
that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse.
So CHOOSE LIFE in order that you may live, you and your descendants
Joshua 24:15
If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the Lord,
choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: ...
but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”
Job 34:4 ...“Let us choose for ourselves what is right;
Let us know among ourselves what is good.
Psalm 25:12
Who is the man who fears (respects/reveres) the Lord? He will instruct him in the way he should CHOOSE!
Judges 10:14
Go and cry out to the gods which you have chosen;
let them deliver you in the time of your distress.”
Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door and knock; IF anyone hears My voice and opens the door,
I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.
The "FREE WILL" doctrine...VERSUS...the "ALL EVERYTHING" Attributes of God?
The spiritual GIFT of "free will" presents/allows Mankind with a spiritual CHOICE: ACCEPT or REJECT the spiritual CALLING/DRAWING of God.
1. The spiritual "free will" of Man and angels is allowed to operate within:
2. the all-everything perfect will of the TRI-UNE GOD.
Both doctrines are TRUE. They are not in conflict.
God FORE-KNOWS all. God does not irrevocably PRE-DETERMINE all.
The DOCTRINE of "Free Will" is TRUE, even though the exact "words" do not appear in the Bible.
The DOCTRINE of the "TRI-UNE GOD" is TRUE, even though the exact words "trinity" does not appear in the Bible.
1. God is a perfectly good spirit being, ...all knowing...all seeing...all present ...all powerful...all sovreign... etc.
2. God FORE-KNOWS all, who would be "saved" before they were ever born in the spiritual image of God. He does not irrevocably PRE-DETERMINE all.
3. God wants all Men's spirits to return to Him, and
none to be spiritually separated from the Kingdom of God for spiritual eternity in the "lake of fire"...."eternal life".
" Whosoever will may come, and becometh unto me I will in no wise cast out.”
4. God spiritually calls/draws.
Man has a spirit-led volition which allows Him to ACCEPT or REJECT
the undeserved gift of Grace through spirit-led Faith/Belief. (John 3 as explained in Ephesians 2)
5. God spiritually calls/draws. Man has a spirit-led volition which allows Him to ACCEPT or REJECT
the comfort and guidance of the permanently indwelling God the Holy Spirit after salvation. = the SANCTIFICATION PROCESS.
6. God gives Man the opportunities to CHOOSE...allowing the freedom to choose...free to follow the will of God...or not.
7. QED...voila: the "Free Will" of Man!
CHOOSE LIFE...
1 Chronicles 28:9...King David upon giving his kingdom to his wise son
“As for you, my son Solomon,
know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind;
for the Lord searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts.
IF you seek Him, He will let you find Him;
but IF you forsake Him, He will reject you forever.
Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today,
that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse.
So CHOOSE LIFE in order that you may live, you and your descendants
Joshua 24:15
If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the Lord,
choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: ...
but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”
Job 34:4 ...“Let us choose for ourselves what is right;
Let us know among ourselves what is good.
Psalm 25:12
Who is the man who fears (respects/reveres) the Lord? He will instruct him in the way he should CHOOSE!
Judges 10:14
Go and cry out to the gods which you have chosen;
let them deliver you in the time of your distress.”
Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door and knock; IF anyone hears My voice and opens the door,
I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.
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Silverback
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God chose, before the foundation of the world those he would be graceful to and bring to a saving faith...These are the elect whose names were written in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world.
With the exception of his own counsel, nothing else has really been revealed.
but what it is not based on is his foreknowledge, since our election is unconditional.
It was also not a military type choosing such as every third person.
Unconditional Election, is tied at the hip with Total Depravity, It is tough to understand the one without the other.
Every person born into this world stands guilty before God, and is deserving of his wrath, punnishment, and condemnation.
God, before the foundation of the world chose those he would bring to faith, and save.
Some people receive mercy, Some are passed by and receive justice, but, know one receives injustice.
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ICONO'CLAST
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Hello silverb
It is correctly based on Biblical foreknowledge. ..where God sets His love on those sinners who deserved justice but gives them mercy.
He saw them as dead in sin but loved them savinvly.They are each known by name and chosen by God's perfect wisdom.
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Major1
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Agreed! It is my hope that the Holy Spirit would burn into the hearts of ALL believers that Calvary, with all of it blood, and suffering and pain and death is ugly to look at.
But that did not cause God the Father to change His mind about sin and the sinner.
God hates sin but loves the sinner!
According to Ephesians 1:3-12 God's mind was settled about sin and the sinner before there was sin and a sinner. God planned and finished the plan of redemption before there was a universe, Earth and a sinner to redeem.
Jesus the Christ was always Plan A!
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Major1
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You are correct. Being saved means we have Christ living in us. However He is also in heaven at the right hand of the Father. So that means while we are "Practically" here on the earth...……."Positionally" we are also in heaven at the same time.
God knew Adam would sin.
God knew the Law would not save men.
God knew that men would not and could not keep the Law.
The Trinity knew that we all would sin and need to be saved which is exactly why Jesus said from the cross…………."IT IS FINISHED"!
The redemption of man was completed! Salvation was now possible.
HOW?????
Hebrews 2:14 says...…….."He, Christ became flesh".
The death and resurrection of the Son makes salvation possible if we just would believe and accept the work of Jesus Christ.
So then, Why do so many people believe that we can be saved by works?"
Because salvation by works appeals to man’s sinful nature, it forms the basis of almost every religion except for biblical Christianity.
Prov. 14:12 tells us that...…...
“there is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death.”
Salvation by works seems right to men, which is why it is the predominantly held viewpoint. That is exactly why biblical Christianity is so different from all other religions—it is the only religion that teaches salvation is a gift of God and not of works.
Eph. 2:8-9 could not be any clearer or more simple to understand...……..
“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast”.
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Major1
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I am not sure why you need to disagree with me as from what I read from you is pretty much what I have said.
What I said the Bible is silent on was...………..
"then it could be argued that one cannot deny the doctrine of double predestination."
Rom. 9:23...….
"And he did so in order that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory."
Notice that God elects certain people beforehand for His glory. In other words, before the foundation of the world God chose certain people to be His children in order that He would be glorified which is what Eph. 1:4 tells us.
It does not say that God chose people to damnation or predestined people to wrath. The Bible never speaks about a double predestination where God elects or predestinates some to hell, and others to heaven. Those who are under God's wrath are in that position because they have rejected God. Those that have the righteousness of God are in that position because God has chosen them to be His children.
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It does mention in Romans 9:22, "vessels of wrath prepared for destruction".
Yes, agreed, yet that is either the very means of fulfilling his predestining, or the confirmation of it, or both. Notice John 3:18, "...already condemned (past tense, complete) because they do not believe.."
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Not to disagree, exactly, because biblical Judaism has the same Messiah, and so the same gospel. Biblical Judaism is the same as Christianity. Only one way, the Redeemer. Not by works. There has only ever been one gospel. Nobody has ever earned their way to heaven.
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Major1
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Yes.
John 3:18......
"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
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