Reformed Theology - Question "How Does God Choose?"

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This is a question I have had for some time regarding reformed theology and was hoping someone might be able to help me here. I understand we have a limited capability to understand God and His plan, but I also know the He tells us to study and I have found no qualification of that. In other words, there is no reason not to speculate based on what we DO know. For instance, we know certain of God's character traits, i.e.- God is Love, God hates sin, God is a vengeful God, God is fair and just, etc.

Based on the known traits, what do reformed folks believe is the criteria for God's choosing who He will save?

Thanks much in advance!
 

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My understanding is that we do not know and don't need to know how God makes his choices of his Elect. I'll be interested to see if others disagree, but I do know that it's a mistake to try to argue that God's foreknowledge determines his picks, i.e. that he predestines people on the basis of what he sees them doing in the future.
 
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Based on the known traits, what do reformed folks believe is the criteria for God's choosing who He will save?

look at those God saves or has saved. Christians cover every spectrum of people and character type.
There are clever, silly, intelligent, stupid, energetic, lazy Christians and they come from every tribe, people group, language speakers.

It is not possible to determine who God will chose.
 
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This is a question I have had for some time regarding reformed theology and was hoping someone might be able to help me here. I understand we have a limited capability to understand God and His plan, but I also know the He tells us to study and I have found no qualification of that. In other words, there is no reason not to speculate based on what we DO know. For instance, we know certain of God's character traits, i.e.- God is Love, God hates sin, God is a vengeful God, God is fair and just, etc.

Based on the known traits, what do reformed folks believe is the criteria for God's choosing who He will save?

Thanks much in advance!
Hello and welcome to CF!

I won't pretend to try to know how a Reformed person would answer this question. I'm also interested in the reverse which is implied - how does God choose who He won't save? (I couldn't answer that except to say - He doesn't, so I'm curious how others might reply.)

Interested to see responses to your question. But mostly I wanted to welcome you to CF!
 
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My understanding is that we do not know and don't need to know how God makes his choices of his Elect. I'll be interested to see if others disagree, but I do know that it's a mistake to try to argue that God's foreknowledge determines his picks, i.e. that he predestines people on the basis of what he sees them doing in the future.

Right, we do not 'need' to know, and I assume we don't have that as a definitive answer in His Word because it is likely part of what we cannot comprehend. As was also stated, it would be impossible for us to determine this based on a person's character traits as we are ..uh...eclectic :). But, again, I do not think it is something we aren't supposed to speculate on. Particularly when the implications are eternal.

My basic point is, we know God is fair and just so we know he doesn't flip a coin. Is it in the least bit possible that God's Grace, being "sufficient", could overcome our 'inability' and allow for the acceptance or denial of His Grace? Or is there something else about a person (obviously not their 'goodness' or 'works') that He could look on to make the fair and just decision on?
 
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This is a question I have had for some time regarding reformed theology and was hoping someone might be able to help me here. I understand we have a limited capability to understand God and His plan, but I also know the He tells us to study and I have found no qualification of that. In other words, there is no reason not to speculate based on what we DO know. For instance, we know certain of God's character traits, i.e.- God is Love, God hates sin, God is a vengeful God, God is fair and just, etc.

Based on the known traits, what do reformed folks believe is the criteria for God's choosing who He will save?

Thanks much in advance!

:wave: Thank you for asking. I am Reformed, to help in your quest for an answer, I searched and found an article from Pastor Sam Storms on crossway.org that I recommend HERE. If I get more time, I may attempt a personalized, but partial answer.
 
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Major1

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This is a question I have had for some time regarding reformed theology and was hoping someone might be able to help me here. I understand we have a limited capability to understand God and His plan, but I also know the He tells us to study and I have found no qualification of that. In other words, there is no reason not to speculate based on what we DO know. For instance, we know certain of God's character traits, i.e.- God is Love, God hates sin, God is a vengeful God, God is fair and just, etc.

Based on the known traits, what do reformed folks believe is the criteria for God's choosing who He will save?

Thanks much in advance!

First of all, you/we need to understand that if there is an answer to your question it can only be found in the Word of God. Only the Bible gives a look into the heart of God for such thoughts.

Having said that, then we can agree that the Bible is explicit in its answers and they actually become facts and not opinions. That means that there is nothing implicit about it or anything that needs to be inferred.

So then, unless God draws a person to Christ, they cannot take the 1st step of salvation.

John 6:44 says................
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him".

John 6:65.......................
“No one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.

""No One" is a universal negative and it means YOU and ME and EVERYONE else who has ever been born.

“Can” is a statement of capability or capacity.

“Unless” means the necessary condition that delivers the ability to the previously impotent person.

Does God call everyone to Himself?????
God certainly externally speaks to people through the preaching of the gospel, Scripture describes the internal call of God as something quite different.

1 Cor. 1:23-24..............
“but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God".

There is no getting around what this verse says. There are Jews and Greeks who have heard the external call of God but see it as impossible or ridiculous and then there are Jews and Greeks (the same two groups) who see the gospel as powerful and wise.
Why do the latter see something that the former don’t?

Because they were smarter than the others and figured things out for themselves?
No, it’s because of the Creator’s work in their hearts; they are the called of God (see also Rom. 1:6, Rom. 8:30, 1 Cor. 1:9, 2 Tim. 2:9, Eph. 4:4, 2 Pet. 1:3).

When God calls/draws His chosen ones to Christ, their former rebellion towards God melts away. Although perhaps an unfortunate term in some ways, irresistible grace does describe what happens quite well because, as J. I. Packer says.......
“Grace proves irresistible just because it destroys the disposition to resist.”

This is clearly described by Jesus when He says, “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out” (John 6:37)
Proof That God Chooses Who Will Be Saved | The Confident Christian
 
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:wave: Thank you for asking. I am Reformed, to help in your quest for an answer, I searched and found an article from Pastor Sam Storms on crossway.org that I recommend HERE. If I get more time, I may attempt a personalized, but partial answer.

Thanks Apologetic_Warrior, that article definitely and directly addresses the question. It also points to an answer to my question about Grace being sufficient.

How does God Choose?
"It was his good pleasure and will that he do so. But why was he “pleased” to choose this one and not another? We only know that it wasn’t because of anything in one that was not in another. But whatever “reason” or “purpose” moved God to choose as he did, it was pleasing to him and in perfect harmony with both his justice and his love."

Of course, this answer is what prompted my question in the first place...Why was He "pleased" to do so? I know, it's none of our business :) but I still want to 'show myself approved' and do not want to ignore it. Again, it is eternity we are talking about here and we DO know SOME things.

In regard to my question about Grace being sufficient...
"Some believe that God restores in the fallen human heart the ability or freedom of will to believe. Ultimately, then, whether or not they receive or finally reject Christ is up to them.
Others believe that the Bible nowhere teaches this notion of “prevenient grace” in which the depravity and moral corruption of the human heart is to some extent neutralized or overcome.
"

To which I again point to 2 Cor 12:9 "...My grace is sufficient for thee" (it's taught in the Bible, :) ). I believe it would be unwise to believe anyone has found the boundaries for His grace. To assume it is limited to the Reformed Theology requires a presumptive stance I believe.

Anyway, I'm going to make an assumption here...the author isn't suggesting His grace isn't sufficient, and that it could do as described, but it's that this process (something to the effect of what they were saying "neutralizing" one's inability, etc.) is what is not in the Bible. The problem with that is, neither is anything else in the question "How does God choose?". If it was, this topic would be closed already.

How about, is there something in the Bible that says it could not happen this way?

THANKS!
 
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First of all, you/we need to understand that if there is an answer to your question it can only be found in the Word of God. Only the Bible gives a look into the heart of God for such thoughts.

Having said that, then we can agree that the Bible is explicit in its answers and they actually become facts and not opinions. That means that there is nothing implicit about it or anything that needs to be inferred.

So then, unless God draws a person to Christ, they cannot take the 1st step of salvation.

John 6:44 says................
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him".

John 6:65.......................
“No one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.

""No One" is a universal negative and it means YOU and ME and EVERYONE else who has ever been born.

“Can” is a statement of capability or capacity.

“Unless” means the necessary condition that delivers the ability to the previously impotent person.

Does God call everyone to Himself?????
God certainly externally speaks to people through the preaching of the gospel, Scripture describes the internal call of God as something quite different.

1 Cor. 1:23-24..............
“but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God".

There is no getting around what this verse says. There are Jews and Greeks who have heard the external call of God but see it as impossible or ridiculous and then there are Jews and Greeks (the same two groups) who see the gospel as powerful and wise.
Why do the latter see something that the former don’t?

Because they were smarter than the others and figured things out for themselves?
No, it’s because of the Creator’s work in their hearts; they are the called of God (see also Rom. 1:6, Rom. 8:30, 1 Cor. 1:9, 2 Tim. 2:9, Eph. 4:4, 2 Pet. 1:3).

When God calls/draws His chosen ones to Christ, their former rebellion towards God melts away. Although perhaps an unfortunate term in some ways, irresistible grace does describe what happens quite well because, as J. I. Packer says.......
“Grace proves irresistible just because it destroys the disposition to resist.”

This is clearly described by Jesus when He says, “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out” (John 6:37)
Proof That God Chooses Who Will Be Saved | The Confident Christian

Major, thanks much for the reply!

I would like oversimplify your point in an analogy:
God's grace is like gravity and we are all standing on a chair (our 'disposition to resist'). Some people he kicks the chair out from and some he does not.

I may be wrong but I've read your post a few times and, while I see you have well articulated the process, I am not seeing an answer as to why He is kicking one chair over another. Please feel free to correct me if I'm missing something, it has been a LONG day at work today, lol.

Thanks, again.
 
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Major1

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Major, thanks much for the reply!

I would like oversimplify your point in an analogy:
God's grace is like gravity and we are all standing on a chair (our 'disposition to resist'). Some people he kicks the chair out from and some he does not.

I may be wrong but I've read your post a few times and, while I see you have well articulated the process, I am not seeing an answer as to why He is kicking one chair over another. Please feel free to correct me if I'm missing something, it has been a LONG day at work today, lol.

Thanks, again.
Good day Everitt!

May I say to you that if you wanted to pick out something with deep roots for the spiritual minded, you could not have pocked anything more difficult than Election, Predestination and the Foreknowledge of God.

I do not profess to fully understand the doctrine of Election as seen in the Scriptures. I do grasp it better now that I did many ago and one of the things I do know is that "Election always concerns God's people only".

Jesus came into the world to seek and save the lost. That tells us that the lost do not seek God. There is actually no such thing as a "SEEKER". The natural man is blind, dead and depraved and something must happen from without to stir the natural an within before he will accept Jesus as Saviour.

According to John 15:16, we who are believers did not choose Jesus Christ......HE CHOOSE US!!!! It must be that way in order to comply with Ephesians 2:8-9 so that salvation is TOTALLY from God to man. If we were to actively "Choose" Jesus then we would be responsible for our own salvation and that is exactly what the Scriptures say that we can not do.

Remember, election never applies to anyone except believers!!!!!
Everyone else is excluded. Men are not born to be separated from God eternally. Men are not elected to be dammned.

So, you see God is NOT kicking out the chair from anyone. Election is God's enforcement act whereby what He determined in eternity past is carried out today. Election and the FREE WILL of man are like two parallel lines that meet at infinity and harmonize in God.

If you will view the Election of God and the FREE WILL of man from eternity to eternity you will not find a conflict and any difficulties will disappear and your thinking will become clear if you will realize that Election/Predestination/Foreknowledge of God pertain ONLY to God's people.
 
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Hey Major, hope you are having a great day as well!

I appreciate your response. I think the merits of Reformed theology from a Biblical perspective have been debated from just about every angle possible over the last couple hundred years. I think I have a fairly decent grasp of it...? The study of it definitely changed my view of, what I'll refer to as the 'process', and am very thankful of that. I don't quite cross that thin grey line of understanding into Reformed thinking but we are definitely very close. About the only thing I might discuss on the 'process' topic would be pre-destination/foreknowledge etc. as I struggle with the application's importance in the 'process' when we take into account we are dealing with a God that transcends time, so what is 'pre' to Him?

Anyway, like I say, this topic isn't really about the 'process'. I might start another thread on the 'pre' topic, but this thread can basically assume Reformed theology isn't being argued. It's simply a question as to the why or how based on what characteristics we know about God.

I have already learned more about the subject since starting this thread. The article I was pointed to was far closer to answering the question then I have heard in several years of studying the theology. From that I have mane and assumption and have a pending question...
My assumption is that no one is saying that God's grace cannot overcome (as the writer said 'neutralize') our 'inability'. Only that God's Word doesn't say that it does.
If my assumption is correct, "How about, is there something in the Bible that says it could not happen this way?"
 
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Major1

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Hey Major, hope you are having a great day as well!

I appreciate your response. I think the merits of Reformed theology from a Biblical perspective have been debated from just about every angle possible over the last couple hundred years. I think I have a fairly decent grasp of it...? The study of it definitely changed my view of, what I'll refer to as the 'process', and am very thankful of that. I don't quite cross that thin grey line of understanding into Reformed thinking but we are definitely very close. About the only thing I might discuss on the 'process' topic would be pre-destination/foreknowledge etc. as I struggle with the application's importance in the 'process' when we take into account we are dealing with a God that transcends time, so what is 'pre' to Him?

Anyway, like I say, this topic isn't really about the 'process'. I might start another thread on the 'pre' topic, but this thread can basically assume Reformed theology isn't being argued. It's simply a question as to the why or how based on what characteristics we know about God.

I have already learned more about the subject since starting this thread. The article I was pointed to was far closer to answering the question then I have heard in several years of studying the theology. From that I have mane and assumption and have a pending question...
My assumption is that no one is saying that God's grace cannot overcome (as the writer said 'neutralize') our 'inability'. Only that God's Word doesn't say that it does.
If my assumption is correct, "How about, is there something in the Bible that says it could not happen this way?"

Not that I know about, however it seems to me that it is getting real close to Deut. 4:2 in that you are wanting the Scriptures to say something that they are not saying.
 
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My understanding is that we do not know and don't need to know how God makes his choices of his Elect. I'll be interested to see if others disagree, but I do know that it's a mistake to try to argue that God's foreknowledge determines his picks, i.e. that he predestines people on the basis of what he sees them doing in the future.
I especially agree with the we don’t need to know part. I find we, all of us can get distracted from sharing the gospel. Myself included.

That said, will be an interesting thread.
 
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Not that I know about, however it seems to me that it is getting real close to Deut. 4:2 in that you are wanting the Scriptures to say something that they are not saying.

Definitely not, and I promise, I will not teach it in Sunday School or anywhere else for that matter :). I want to be very careful about that. People turn fiction into religion in this world, let alone speculation! Very dangerous I realize and only something I would do with other believers. Thank you for the warning though.

I was just curious if I possibly missed something. Certainly doesn't prove anything and I wouldn't suggest it does. If anyone else has a thought or scripture that expands/contradicts the idea, please feel free to chime in.

Thanks!
 
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Definitely not, and I promise, I will not teach it in Sunday School or anywhere else for that matter :). I want to be very careful about that. People turn fiction into religion in this world, let alone speculation! Very dangerous I realize and only something I would do with other believers. Thank you for the warning though.

I was just curious if I possibly missed something. Certainly doesn't prove anything and I wouldn't suggest it does. If anyone else has a thought or scripture that expands/contradicts the idea, please feel free to chime in.

Thanks!
Oh..and, of course, if there is something that answers the original question of "How Does God Choose" better/different/with scripture proceed with that as well.
 
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Major1

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Definitely not, and I promise, I will not teach it in Sunday School or anywhere else for that matter :). I want to be very careful about that. People turn fiction into religion in this world, let alone speculation! Very dangerous I realize and only something I would do with other believers. Thank you for the warning though.

I was just curious if I possibly missed something. Certainly doesn't prove anything and I wouldn't suggest it does. If anyone else has a thought or scripture that expands/contradicts the idea, please feel free to chime in.

Thanks!

Honestly, I was not warning you my brother. I appreciate your respect and consideration but I was just wanting you to be careful and only accept what Scriptures actually do say.
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Andy centek

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My understanding is that we do not know and don't need to know how God makes his choices of his Elect. I'll be interested to see if others disagree, but I do know that it's a mistake to try to argue that God's foreknowledge determines his picks, i.e. that he predestines people on the basis of what he sees them doing in the future.
 
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Andy centek

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GOD'S ELECT

Your question as I understand it is how does God choose His Elect. First, not to many people know or understand that God indeed has His Elect. So congratulations for knowing.

For those who may not know. God's Elect are those whom God himself has chosen to be in His kingdom of God and His Christ Jesus kingdom at His right hand. The answer is rather straight forward as I see it; God chooses whom He wills to. Just at He chose to make the Hebrews His chosen people. As The Creator of all things He has this right.

Perhaps it is better to say that the Elect of God are those whom have been given the Holy Spirit to guide themselves in this sinful world. Consider this also.

Isa_45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Being the creator of all that was, is, or will be, gives Him the authority to chose whomever He wishes for His own people. However, those chosen must obey the instructions given to become one of His Elect. That is, they must believe in His words and in His Jesus Christ and His purpose for coming to this Earth, and in the earth of Judeah. This because They were his first chosen ones on the Earth that we are told of.

Then, after the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the way was made ready for the Elect to be called.

Isa_42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom My soul delights; I have put My spirit upon Him: He shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Something else that must be considered here is the following. The Gentiles had no Saviour until Jesus Christ came and kept His Father's works in Judeah. Then Jesus made this statement which gets overlooked all the time.

John_10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The Gentiles were not brought into the house of Israel until Jesus Christ sent the apostle Paul to preach to Them and the believing Jews; God's elect. People use all that Jesus preached to the Jews and try to apply it to themselves. This brings that kind of judgment to them when the time comes. Many Denominations use the teachings to the Jews and apply it to themselves. This brings about the results of that upon them when their judgment comes.

I pray that this short writing will be of much help.

Andy Centek



`
 
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