Reformed Egyptian Language?

[gort]

Not all written languages are spoken. Demonic is certainly an example of "reformed" Egyptian. It had nothing to do with the spoken language, but was a reformation, if you will, of the other written forms of the language.

Doc

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Yeah, "Demonic is cerainly an example of reformed Egyptian".....


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[A New Dawn]

Ok, so in the interest of saving time and/or space, Reformed Egyptian was used for writing, but no one could speak it, if there is even such a thing as a verbal form of this language?

So, if they were to have read off the plates, they would have read aloud in their own Hebrew, Aramic, or whatever language they spoke? I'm visualizing something similar to reading Japanese or Chinese characters aloud in English. Is this what is believed to have occurred?

That is what I visualize, also.

If, as Jenda suggests, they wrote in Egyptian originally and then it became reformed Egyptian over time, wouldn't they have still been able to speak the orginal Egyptian?

It is my guess that only the scribes used that language, that the rest of the population just understood their "native" language. And, since it is not specifically stated that it was used as a spoken language, I would guess that if the original scribes who left Jerusalem in 600 BC (Lehi, Nephi, Laman, Lemuel) did know how to speak it, that once they left, they would have no reason to use it except for writing, so even in that situation, it would have died out.

 

[AMMON]

Another dead horse... Reformed Eqyptian. How many times must we kill the same horses? SEARCH is the friend of those thinking of making a new post.

Now, as has been duly noted many, many times before, the term "Reformed Egyptian" is a term used by an very late writer in The Book of Mormon, who states that it is the language THEY CALL Reformed Egyptian (they meaning the people of his time and place, e.g., approx. 400 A.D., somewhere in the Americas). And he states that it is in this language that they write upon their records, some of which eventually became The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ.

So what is this language, Reformed Egyptian? It's a long-dead language that a very few, educated inhabitants of the Ancient Americas created, used for writing, and then vanished when said group of inhabitants died... the language dying with them. Thus, you'll find no record of this language today; and just as we are constantly finding unknown languages in various archeological digs across the world, this language remains beneath the sands of time. Save for the plates entrusted to Joseph Smith, which he translated via the power of God from Reformed Egyptian, whatever that language was or looked like, into English.

 

[Darkelf]

Whilst in the big SLC last week, I stumbled upon the April 14th edition of the Salt Lake City Weekly. I saw the following article:

http://www.slweekly.com/editorial/2005/deep_2005-04-14.cfm

The following is from that article:



Now, I realize that whoever this D.P. Sorensen is, his/her column is a satire and the things written about are not necessarily true. But, it got me to thinking that if one were to believe that the Golden Plates are real and were actually written in Reformed Egyptian, then could it be said that that person must also believe there was a Reformed Egyptian spoken language as well??

Any indications, beliefs, comments by leaders (past or present), etc. that this would be true as well?

I beleive Reformed Egyptian is really an alien language that was taught to JS when he met those aliens in the clearing.

 

[AMMON]

I beleive Reformed Egyptian is really an alien language that was taught to JS when he met those aliens in the clearing.

Makes about as much sense as much of what I've read in this thread.

 

[Der Alte]

[size=-1]Another dead horse... Reformed Eqyptian. How many times must we kill the same horses? SEARCH is the friend of those thinking of making a new post.

Now, as has been duly noted many, many times before, the term "Reformed Egyptian" is a term used by an very late writer in The Book of Mormon, who states that it is the language THEY CALL Reformed Egyptian (they meaning the people of his time and place, e.g., approx. 400 A.D., somewhere in the Americas).[/size]

Cop out time. It wasn't really "Reformed Egyptian," it didn't really have any relationship to anything remotely Egyptian, it was only "called" that by this late writer of the BOM. I wonder why a descendant of Jews would invent a language and call it "reformed Egyptian," which would surely constantly remind them of the 400 years of bitter slavery in Egypt?

I'm not sure but I think this "reformed Egyptian," was supposedly also written in Israel about 600 b.c., [added] that is according to the BOM, not authentic ANE or Biblical history.

 

[Serapha]

I'm not sure but I think this "reformed Egyptian," was supposedly also written in Israel about 600 b.c.

HI there!




There's absolutely NO evidence of "reformed Egyptian" in Israel about 600 B.C.... as thought the Assyrians and Babylonians would was to keep "reformed Egyptian" around... they tried to eliminate Hebrew by forcing all the people to learn new languages.

~serapha~

 

[Serapha]

So what is this language, Reformed Egyptian? It's a long-dead language that a very few, educated inhabitants of the Ancient Americas created, used for writing, and then vanished when said group of inhabitants died... the language dying with them. Thus, you'll find no record of this language today; and just as we are constantly finding unknown languages in various archeological digs across the world, this language remains beneath the sands of time. Save for the plates entrusted to Joseph Smith, which he translated via the power of God from Reformed Egyptian, whatever that language was or looked like, into English.

Hi Ammon,



Well, I thought that the symbol for a particular mormon forum included a symbol from "reformed Egyptian"... but when I went to view it.... I found that I was mistaken... but it is interesting reading concerning their symbol.

The Hebrew "aleph" in the upper left corner and the Greek "omega" in the lower right are the first and last letters of the Hebrew and Greek alphabets, standing for "the first and the last" (Isaiah 48:12), who is Jesus Christ.

The Mayan glyph in the upper right is stylized, representing Mesoamerican studies.

The Egyptian "Wd3t eye" in the lower left, the eye of the sun god Re, was an ancient symbol of resurrection, recounting how the eye was torn into pieces and put back together. It also has a connection with the Book of Mormon, since the "pieces" of this eye were used by the Egyptians as binary fractional mathematical symbols for their grain measures, reminiscent of the weights and measures of the Nephites in Alma 11. The round pupil of the eye was also used by the Egyptians as the round outline of the hypocephali used in burials, of which Facsimile 2 in the book of Abraham is an example.

Yeah... I see the relationship between an Egyptian symbol of the eye of the sun god and the book of mormon....

and just as we are constantly finding unknown languages in various archeological digs across the world, this language remains beneath the sands of time.

Where does the "we" come into the discussion? I actually dig... so if I say "we" --there will be a reference to who was digging. So, who is the "we" here?

~serapha~

 

[Der Alte]

[size=-1]So what is this language, Reformed Egyptian? It's a long-dead language that a very few, educated inhabitants of the Ancient Americas created, used for writing, and then vanished when said group of inhabitants died... the language dying with them. Thus, you'll find no record of this language today; and just as we are constantly finding unknown languages in various archeological digs across the world, this language remains beneath the sands of time. Save for the plates entrusted to Joseph Smith, which he translated via the power of God from Reformed Egyptian, whatever that language was or looked like, into English.[/size]

This is not entirely forthright, even a bit disingenuous. We do know what some of the "reformed Egyptian," looked like from the copied sample that Joseph sent to Professor Anton.

The Church Section of the Mormon newspaper, Deseret News, May 3, 1980.

 

[A New Dawn]

ROFLMBO

Oh, please. Nothing found by Mark Hoffman was authentic. So, we don't know what they looked like.

Didn't you ever read the book "Salamander: Story of the Mormon Forgery Murders"?

 

[Der Alte]

[size=-1]ROFLMBO

Oh, please. Nothing found by Mark Hoffman was authentic. So, we don't know what they looked like.

Didn't you ever read the book "Salamander: Story of the Mormon Forgery Murders"?[/size]

Well then, I guess it must be true, if someone wrote a book, titled, "Salamander: Story of the Mormon Forgery Murders." I mean that title alone proves the Mormon newspaper article wrong, doesn't it? According to the article the people in the picture were convinced of its authenticity. And one of them was the then sitting Seer and Prophet of the church. And the LDS was so convinced that they published a gilt cover edition of BOM, with those "caractors." I have a copy. And I may be wrong here but I think there is another document with similar "caractors" that did not come from Hoffman.

Edited to add: I now remember where I saw the other set of "reformed egyptian caractors," which are virtually identical to the ones shown above. It was in "The [Official] History of the [LDS] Church." Probably volume 1, I will scan it later and post it here. More that 2 decades ago I showed it to one of my professors, a noted authority in ANE languages. His comments were almost identical to Anthon's actual comments.

 

[Zippythepinhead]

That is what I visualize, also.


It is my guess that only the scribes used that language, that the rest of the population just understood their "native" language. And, since it is not specifically stated that it was used as a spoken language, I would guess that if the original scribes who left Jerusalem in 600 BC (Lehi, Nephi, Laman, Lemuel) did know how to speak it, that once they left, they would have no reason to use it except for writing, so even in that situation, it would have died out.

This is just a theory, but I think just as Roman Catholics keep Latin in use for writings and mass, maybe the Nephite nation used Reformed Egyptian the same way and it was not actually the language of the common people. Only a guess

 

[CaliforniaKid]

Demonic is certainly an example of "reformed" Egyptian.

Doc, you really set yourself up for one here. I'm not one to make wise cracks about the Book of Mormon being demonic, so it's a good thing I didn't have to. Somebody else already beat me to it.

 

[A New Dawn]

Well then, I guess it must be true, if someone wrote a book, titled, "Salamander: Story of the Mormon Forgery Murders." I mean that title alone proves the Mormon newspaper article wrong, doesn't it? According to the article the people in the picture were convinced of its authenticity. And one of them was the then sitting Seer and Prophet of the church. And the LDS was so convinced that they published a gilt cover edition of BOM, with those "caractors." I have a copy. And I may be wrong here but I think there is another document with similar "caractors" that did not come from Hoffman.

Edited to add: I now remember where I saw the other set of "reformed egyptian caractors," which are virtually identical to the ones shown above. It was in "The [Official] History of the [LDS] Church." Probably volume 1, I will scan it later and post it here. More that 2 decades ago I showed it to one of my professors, a noted authority in ANE languages. His comments were almost identical to Anthon's actual comments.

Lots of people were convinced of the authenticity of the documents he "found'. My church fell for the "Joseph Smith, III blessing" and paid a large amount of money for it. That doesn't make it authentic. The book describes how he created his "authentic" documents.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Lots of people were convinced of the authenticity of the documents he "found'. My church fell for the "Joseph Smith, III blessing" and paid a large amount of money for it. That doesn't make it authentic. The book describes how he created his "authentic" documents.[/SIZE]

Normally it would be true that a lot of people claiming something to be authentic when it is not, is irrelevant. However, my point was that the, then, sitting prophet, seer, and revelator of the LDS accepted the documents as authentic. Some prophet, some seer?

But having said that I did not base my post entirely on the article I quoted but mainly on a document I had seen several years ago in, A Comprehensive History of the Church, B.H. Roberts, BYU Press, 1965, vol. I. I mistakenly thought the picture I linked was the same one. Here as promised a scan of the "Facsimile of the characters on the Gold plates, from which the Book or Mormon, was translated--transcribed by Joseph Smith." pg. 107, ibid. And pg. 100, ibid, which states this is "A fragment of the transcript of the Book of Mormon characters which Joseph Smith gave to Martin Harris. . . '

As I said before we do know what, at least, some of the alleged "reformed egyptian," on the alleged golden plates, looked like, and that from an official LDS publication. Ooops, I almost forgot that is not doctrine, it was not voted on by the general authorities, or some such excuse.

Click the thumbnail to see enlarged image of page 100.

 

[Doc T]

Yeah, "Demonic is cerainly an example of reformed Egyptian".....

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You guys are good and catching my typos. Yes, is should have been Demotic not demonic.

Doc

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[Doc T]

Normally it would be true that a lot of people claiming something to be authentic when it is not, is irrelevant. However, my point was that the, then, sitting prophet, seer, and revelator of the LDS accepted the documents as authentic. Some prophet, some seer?

I failed to see in the portion of the article posted where it indicated that President Kimball accepted the documents as authentic. The article only stated that "Experts" felt the document was authentic.

Do you have the rest of the article where such statement from President Kimball is found?

Doc

~

 

[gort]

You guys are good and catching my typos. Yes, is should have been Demotic not demonic.

Doc

~

Are you sure it's a typo??

On my keyboard the 'n' is a far away from the 't'



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[Doc T]

Are you sure it's a typo??

On my keyboard the 'n' is a far away from the 't'



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Not on the key board, in my brain.

Doc

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[gort]

Not on the key board, in my brain.

Doc

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Well, at least you know that someone reads your posts and checks them for errors.....lol

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