Reformed Egyptian Language?

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Fit4Christ

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Whilst in the big SLC last week, I stumbled upon the April 14th edition of the Salt Lake City Weekly. I saw the following article:

http://www.slweekly.com/editorial/2005/deep_2005-04-14.cfm

The following is from that article:

After we finished our second bottle of Chianti, the discussion turned to the language of the liturgy, and whether we should incorporate an ancient tongue like Latin into church ceremonies. (We all agreed that the Catholic liturgy lost some of its mystery when they abandoned Latin—somehow “Two, four, six, eight, time to transubstantiate” doesn’t sound as good in the vernacular.) Elder Uchdorf wanted to insert a phrase or two of Hoch Deutsch (High German) into the Baptism for the Dead, but Elder Oaks quickly nixed that idea. If we were going to use some other lingo, it would have to be Reformed Egyptian, the original language of the Golden Plates.

Now, I realize that whoever this D.P. Sorensen is, his/her column is a satire and the things written about are not necessarily true. But, it got me to thinking that if one were to believe that the Golden Plates are real and were actually written in Reformed Egyptian, then could it be said that that person must also believe there was a Reformed Egyptian spoken language as well??

Any indications, beliefs, comments by leaders (past or present), etc. that this would be true as well?
 

Doc T

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Fit4Christ said:
Now, I realize that whoever this D.P. Sorensen is, his/her column is a satire and the things written about are not necessarily true. But, it got me to thinking that if one were to believe that the Golden Plates are real and were actually written in Reformed Egyptian, then could it be said that that person must also believe there was a Reformed Egyptian spoken language as well??

Any indications, beliefs, comments by leaders (past or present), etc. that this would be true as well?

Not all written languages are spoken. Demonic is certainly an example of "reformed" Egyptian. It had nothing to do with the spoken language, but was a reformation, if you will, of the other written forms of the language.

Doc

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christopher123

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Ah, but did you forget, that the church DID use to use a "higher" language at one point in a ceremony.

Let me take you back to the temple even as recently as 1990. While doing an endowment session, at one point everyone would raise there arms three times and say "Pay Lay Ale".

No, this was not "reformed egyptian", but we were taught that this was the true "Adamic" language for "Oh God, hear the words of my mouth".

Strangely, this last vestige of the true tongue of Adam was discarded and one now just says it in English or whatever language you are going through in.

Here we have a spoken language, but not written (that I've seen).


Chris <><




edited to correct spelling (english, not egyptian or adamic)
 
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Doc T

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christopher123 said:
Ah, but did you forget, that the church DID use to use a "higher" language at one point in a ceremony.

Let me take you back to the temple even as recently as 1990. While doing an endowment session, at one point everyone would raise there arms three times and say "Pay Lay Ale".

No, this was not "reformed egyptain", but we were taught that this was the true "Adamic" language for "Oh God, hear the words of my mouth".

Strangely, this last vestige of the true tongue of Adam was discarded and one now just says it in English or whatever language you are going through in.

Here we have a spoken language, but not written (that I've seen).


Chris <><


And what does this have to do with the thread topic?

Doc

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christopher123

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Doc T said:
And what does this have to do with the thread topic?

Doc

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I am sorry that you are having so much trouble with your reading and comprehension lately.

If you will look in the quote from the opening thread, you will see a note on "incorporation ancient tongues into church ceremonies." If that reference is not good enough for you, you will see my comment on spoken verses written languages at the end of the post you quoted. If a second reference isn't good for you, I have no other option but assume that you are just in "mood" today.

What's the matter? You'll talk about a fake language the nobody except a mormon apologist can even try defend, but you won't discuss one that you probably spoke words from 100's of times?



Chris <><
 
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A New Dawn

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Fit4Christ said:
Whilst in the big SLC last week, I stumbled upon the April 14th edition of the Salt Lake City Weekly. I saw the following article:

http://www.slweekly.com/editorial/2005/deep_2005-04-14.cfm

The following is from that article:



Now, I realize that whoever this D.P. Sorensen is, his/her column is a satire and the things written about are not necessarily true. But, it got me to thinking that if one were to believe that the Golden Plates are real and were actually written in Reformed Egyptian, then could it be said that that person must also believe there was a Reformed Egyptian spoken language as well??

Any indications, beliefs, comments by leaders (past or present), etc. that this would be true as well?
If there is, it is not related to the BoM peoples. It would have to be Egyptian that was reformed, both in the written and in the spoken languages by a different group of people.

Our church has not made an official declaration on the matter, and I have not studied any of the LDS literature on the matter, but the BoM states that they only wrote in Egyptian because it took up less space. The rest of their communication was done in whatever language the Jews spoke at the time. And the written language became "reformed" over time to accomodate their needs. When they left Jerusalem, it was not reformed, it was regular Egyptian. So I believe the idea of a spoken reformed Egyptian is moot.
 
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Doc T

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christopher123 said:
I am sorry that you are having so much trouble with your reading and comprehension lately.

If you will look in the quote from the opening thread, you will see a note on "incorporation ancient tongues into church ceremonies." If that reference is not good enough for you, you will see my comment on spoken verses written languages at the end of the post you quoted. If a second reference isn't good for you, I have no other option but assume that you are just in "mood" today.

What's the matter? You'll talk about a fake language the nobody except a mormon apologist can even try defend, but you won't discuss one that you probably spoke words from 100's of times?

Chris <><

No problem comprehending, but if you read what Fit4Christ highlighted and asked about, it had nothing to do with your post. But since you seem to be in a mood lately to denegrate what others hold sacred, I guess I'll leave you to yourself.

Doc

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Doc T

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Jenda said:
If there is, it is not related to the BoM peoples. It would have to be Egyptian that was reformed, both in the written and in the spoken languages by a different group of people.

Our church has not made an official declaration on the matter, and I have not studied any of the LDS literature on the matter, but the BoM states that they only wrote in Egyptian because it took up less space. The rest of their communication was done in whatever language the Jews spoke at the time. And the written language became "reformed" over time to accomodate their needs. When they left Jerusalem, it was not reformed, it was regular Egyptian. So I believe the idea of a spoken reformed Egyptian is moot.

Jenda, the LDS church has the same understanding of Reformed Egyptian. It was their own "shorthand" of the Egyptian characters in which they wrote the Hebrew language.

Doc

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christopher123

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Doc T said:
No problem comprehending, but if you read what Fit4Christ highlighted and asked about, it had nothing to do with your post.

And once again here you are wrong as I showed two different places where it was on topic. I'm sorry that all posts in all threads don't address what you want them to. If you don't like it, don't comment on it.




DocT said:
But since you seem to be in a mood lately to denegrate what others hold sacred, I guess I'll leave you to yourself.

I will repost what I said, looking for the denegration:


Chris said:
Ah, but did you forget, that the church DID use to use a "higher" language at one point in a ceremony.

Let me take you back to the temple even as recently as 1990. While doing an endowment session, at one point everyone would raise there arms three times and say "Pay Lay Ale".

No, this was not "reformed egyptian", but we were taught that this was the true "Adamic" language for "Oh God, hear the words of my mouth".

Strangely, this last vestige of the true tongue of Adam was discarded and one now just says it in English or whatever language you are going through in.

Here we have a spoken language, but not written (that I've seen).


Nope, no denegration there. I even refrained from making a beer joke with "pay lay ale" (though it was hard). Just a relevant post to the thread about "ancient" mormon languages.



Chris <><
 
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Fit4Christ

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Jenda said:
If there is, it is not related to the BoM peoples. It would have to be Egyptian that was reformed, both in the written and in the spoken languages by a different group of people.

Our church has not made an official declaration on the matter, and I have not studied any of the LDS literature on the matter, but the BoM states that they only wrote in Egyptian because it took up less space. The rest of their communication was done in whatever language the Jews spoke at the time. And the written language became "reformed" over time to accomodate their needs. When they left Jerusalem, it was not reformed, it was regular Egyptian. So I believe the idea of a spoken reformed Egyptian is moot.



Doc T said:
Jenda, the LDS church has the same understanding of Reformed Egyptian. It was their own "shorthand" of the Egyptian characters in which they wrote the Hebrew language.

Doc

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Ok, so in the interest of saving time and/or space, Reformed Egyptian was used for writing, but no one could speak it, if there is even such a thing as a verbal form of this language?

So, if they were to have read off the plates, they would have read aloud in their own Hebrew, Aramic, or whatever language they spoke? I'm visualizing something similar to reading Japanese or Chinese characters aloud in English. Is this what is believed to have occurred?

If, as Jenda suggests, they wrote in Egyptian originally and then it became reformed Egyptian over time, wouldn't they have still been able to speak the orginal Egyptian?
 
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Fit4Christ

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Doc T said:
No problem comprehending, but if you read what Fit4Christ highlighted and asked about, it had nothing to do with your post. But since you seem to be in a mood lately to denegrate what others hold sacred, I guess I'll leave you to yourself.

Doc

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Doc,

I have no problem with what Chris wrote. It was on topic. If you look at what I had highlighted, the first word was "it". What is this "it" referring to? It is referring to the "language of liturgy" in the first sentence. IMO, Chris was addressing this language portion, just not specifically to Reformed Egyptian.
 
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Doc T

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Fit4Christ said:
Ok, so in the interest of saving time and/or space, Reformed Egyptian was used for writing, but no one could speak it, if there is even such a thing as a verbal form of this language?

So, if they were to have read off the plates, they would have read aloud in their own Hebrew, Aramic, or whatever language they spoke? I'm visualizing something similar to reading Japanese or Chinese characters aloud in English. Is this what is believed to have occurred?

If, as Jenda suggests, they wrote in Egyptian originally and then it became reformed Egyptian over time, wouldn't they have still been able to speak the orginal Egyptian?

They were Hebrew words [language] written in a reformed Egyptian. So I imagine they would have spoken their language. I would assume that your analagy of reading Japanese or Chinese characters in English would be close.

As to whether any could speak Egyptian or not, I cannot say. Nephi stated that he was taught in all the learning of his father. I'm not sure if this included the Egyptian language or not.

Doc

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Doc T

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Fit4Christ said:
Doc,

I have no problem with what Chris wrote. It was on topic. If you look at what I had highlighted, the first word was "it". What is this "it" referring to? It is referring to the "language of liturgy" in the first sentence. IMO, Chris was addressing this language portion, just not specifically to Reformed Egyptian.

My appologies. I must have read the tread title wrong.

Doc

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intrepid

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A little confused here, for which I apologize in advance. Wasn't ancient Egyptian pictoral in nature? Was Reformed Egyptian also pictoral? When JSj studied/translated the golden plates, was he seeing hyroglyphs? He was, as we know, when he translated the Book of Abraham from the papyrus scrolls.
 
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Doc T

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intrepid said:
A little confused here, for which I apologize in advance. Wasn't ancient Egyptian pictoral in nature? Was Reformed Egyptian also pictoral? When JSj studied/translated the golden plates, was he seeing hyroglyphs? He was, as we know, when he translated the Book of Abraham from the papyrus scrolls.

Demotic (a reformed Egyptian) writing was a script and not hieroglyphs. See http://www.omniglot.com/writing/egyptian_demotic.htm

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