Reformation theology and the Gifts of the Holy Spirit

[dms1972]

Hi, I wonder if anyone here can help me. In Reformed theology which of the gifts of the Holy Spirit continue and which have ceased?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Hi, I wonder if anyone here can help me. In Reformed theology which of the gifts of the Holy Spirit continue and which have ceased?

Good question. My understanding, concerning a Cessationist, is all the gifts are for today except tongues, and prophesy and possibly healing and miracles though I doubt any Cessationist would not pray for God's intervention when needed.
Blessings.

 

[Pioneer3mm]

Post#2 has a good point/comment.
---
Interesting to note:
'Reformed Charismatics'
- They are open to..the most(or all) of spiritual gifts.
I was at the Reformed Charismatic meeting..many years ago.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Hi, I wonder if anyone here can help me. In Reformed theology which of the gifts of the Holy Spirit continue and which have ceased?

Now I know this may sound a bit odd; but depending on one's interpretation of what some of the cited passages would mean; would determine the answer.

For example: "speaking in tongues"?
Principle #1 - If "out of the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses let all things be established" is reflected in the "witness of Scripture" that all things recorded in Scripture are recorded in more than one place; than the "2nd witness" to what happened in the Corinthian church would have to be the Book of Acts.

Now in Acts, the tongues heard were clearly understood as human foreign languages. The speaker speaks a tongue they don't understand and the listener hears the message in the language they learned originally.

Going back to the Book of Acts, we see an interesting thing happen. The foreigners hear their birth language. Unbelieving Jews hear a language that they apparently don't understand; although it may have seemed "vaguely familiar" to them. Thus they say these men are drunk. The foreigners are saying; no they aren't because we understand them.

Which raises the question of what language were the apostles speaking? Was it an "unknown language", or was it actually a previously known human language that was extinct by the 1st century? I have a theory on this; which I'm not sure if my theory is 100% accurate, but going back to the Greek and the phrase "we hear them in the tongue which we were born...."; my theory makes sense.

Now here's where it gets interesting. The phrase 'hear them in the tongue which we were born..." is not actually a reference to the geographical place the foreigners were born, it's a reference to the point of origin of their language! Now, back up on time to just after Noah's flood. What happened at the Tower of Babel? (The languages were dispersed. Humanity no longer spoke one language.) Now why were they dispersed? This was because humanity sought to elevate (it's) self to "God status". So "language" becomes a multitudinous burrier to the message God seeks to proclaim.

So, go back to the Book of Acts. What do we see? The gospel goes forth in multitudinous languages. Which the origin point of all language would have been "paleo-human language" (which was probably some derivative of Hebrew = all language changes over time). So if the apostles are speaking "paleo-human language" from back in the days of the Tower of Babel. This would make sense to both what happened historically in Scripture, as well as what's happening in the Book of Acts.

Now translate that into modern times. The gospel still goes forth in foreign languages; but this is not happening via a group of people speaking "paleo-human language" that foreigners hear in their native tongues.

So compare this to what's happening today that is alleged to be "speaking in tongues". Sociologically the phenomena is called "glossolalia". It happens in all human culture and all religions. It's an emergence of some... would we even call it "primal state" of the manifestation of some form of emotional fervor? Psychologically it is a "dopamine hit" type of effect of emotional state; that can also be induced by drugs. This is seen in a lot of tribal religious practices where substances are used to induce this state of euphoria.

Also, scientists have studied this phenomena among multiple cultures. Of which glossolalia is not a formalized structural language. When people pray in a known language; that triggers the "language centers" in the brain. The brain is very active in language and cognition of thought (similar to reading or having a conversation). Glossolalia doesn't do that.

This induced state of euphoria actually "shuts the brain off". This is what they see in scans, like PET, SPECT scans or EEG's. (PET measures blood flow, SPECT sugar uptake and EEG's are used for epilepsy diagnosis) In those types of scans glossolalia looks like the brain is "asleep". Thus why people generally only have vague recollections of the experience if any. It's similar to the state induced by lack of sleep. You will hallucinate if you don't sleep. That's just a factor of biological functions. Hallucination doesn't necessarily mean "insanity". When it happens consistently though; then something's wrong in the brain. "Mental illness" is usually trauma induced. It could be a medical issue, or a combination of environment and genetics. The interplay between the brain and body is a complex system.

So there is one example of what is likely the most hotly contested differences between "Cessationism" and "Continueistic" understandings of the parameters of God's revelation.

Principle #2: Why did this happen in the Book of Acts?
Well that question is related to the exit of one "testament" and the dawn of the next. "When that which is perfect is come; that which is in part will be done away with". (1 Corinthians 13:10) That's not actually a reference to the penning of Scripture; it's a reference to the fulfillment of the OT. The system was fulfilled in Christ; thus why it was done away with.

Tongues are a sign not to believers but to unbelievers. (1 Corinthians 14:22) And why is this? Because "the Jews require a sign..." (1 Corinthians 1:25) Tongues are also described as "abhorring after a nation who's tongue you don't understand" (That's out of the OT.) 1 Corinthians 14:21 "For with men of other tongues .... will I speak unto this people; yet for all that they will not hear me..."

Now the other "sign manifestations"; going back to Moses was miracles like clouds and fire and winds and healing people, turning a staff into a snake...etc. (Exodus 4:8) Now back in Exodus why did this happen? This was because Moses said to God: "These people won't listen to me." Thus was the setting up of the era that "required a sign" = all connected to the OT.

Now to "prophecy" in the NT was to explain how Jesus the Messiah, not only fulfilled the OT; but redemption entails also redeeming people who were outside of that system. This is how prophecy edifies believers. Prophecy in the NT is not "telling the future" but explaining how what was told of the future regarding the Messiah was fulfilled. The entire Bible is connected to the death burial and resurrection of Christ. He is the main subject and how He provides redemption to people of every kindred, tribe, tongue and nation.

So... Historical Point here:
The modern pentecostal movement is maybe only about 150 years old. "Revivals" started in missions in the early 1900's. But didn't really hit main line denominations until after WWII. Which raises a good question: Why is this?

Personally, I think this has to do with us getting closer to The End and the "loosing of Satan" as the "millennial reign" comes to a close. One of the other manifestations that has come about in the past 150 or so years too has to do with political Zionism (as well as Zionism as a social movement).

The modern tongues movement and Zionism basically "grow up" together. They run very similar courses in history and very similar outcroppings of "miraculous events"; which are actually humanly engineered contrived "self fulfilling prophecies". They aren't real. They aren't anything like what actually happened in the OT and the days of the apostles. And if you start diving into history, you'll find this.

An amazing amount of the stuff that happened in the 1st century are actually in secular historical records. The "darkening of the sun" and "moon not give her light" are recorded by astronomers around the world. There's even some evidence that the Mayans observed these sort of things too. We know there's Chinese records of "unusual astronomical events" that can be pinpointed to the era. "Odd eclipses" and "comets in the sky" (The Romans recorded this stuff too.) The Mayans recorded a "comet" that looked like it was "coming from the earth". What they saw was probably Christ's ascension. Go back to Exodus. The manifestation between the Israelites and the Egyptian army. What did the Israelites see? (A cloud.) What did the Egyptian army see? (A pillar of fire.) What did the apostles see? (Jesus taken in a cloud.) What did the rest of the world record. (A "comet" in the sky!)

So why now?

Because when you "open the door" to "the Jews require a sign"; what do you get? (Manifestations of false signs and wonders that "if it were possible they'd deceive the very elect!" Matthew 24:24)

 

[Blade]

Hi, I wonder if anyone here can help me. In Reformed theology which of the gifts of the Holy Spirit continue and which have ceased?

Well me I would seek study what the word says not what man says. Some will say they have ceased others say they have not. I can not find anything where its written they have ceased. Just through out my life seen them been used by the sweet sweet holy Spirit. Luke 11 13. I would find while studying what the word says books by those that believe the blind see deaf hear lame walk dead rise He has not changed. Know that as you seek you WILL find as you knock the door WILL be open ask and you WILL recieve.

 

[dms1972]

I have looked at several books over the years written by authors that have been open to the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. I have come across people somewhat devoted to one book or another as providing their understanding. The issue I have with some is that they have an understanding of revelation that to me is too broad, they use the term to refer to lots of things outside the Bible. This is of course something that Reformed christians would be more careful about.

The cessationist view arose out of the reformers concern with counterfeit miracles. Some then argued that age of miracles was over. But since the Reformation, the 18th Enlightenment has also eroded belief in the christian supernatural. Evangelical rationalism has given rise to the emergent movement. Some within this movement have drifted further from the Bible than others.

I am not sure about instantaneous healings, but if they are genuine they seem more the exception than the norm to me. And I think they still might sometimes need to be confirmed medically (that is that the person has recovered properly, not the miraclous nature of it). I knew a person who said he'd been healed, but there was still the "damage" so he seemed have been healed in that some disease or condition had stopped progressing.

Joy Gresham (CS Lewis's wife) was healed (after a minister prayed for her) but her condition returned in a few years, so then was it not a healing? I think it was a genuine healing because in the view of the nurses who were caring for her, she had probably only a few weeks left to live, but I think it could also be called a reprieve.