Recent article by William Lane Craig suggests the historical Adam lived more than 750,000 years ago

tas8831

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I'm familiar, some, with his apologetics. What do mean by grifting?
upload_2021-10-4_11-58-38.png
 
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dlamberth

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Those questions are not exactly obvious to me but it is interesting to see, thank you for responding.
Why's that? I ask because the questions posed seem pretty basic to me. Why are they not obvious to you?
 
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Abaxvahl

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Why's that? I ask because the questions posed seem pretty basic to me. Why are they not obvious to you?

My approach to studying Scripture is not at all like that line of questioning, but my questions for the flood story began with "how does the water released here relate to how the term is used in these Psalms I pray? Where is this in time, which is probably not linear according to these Church Fathers? How did the commentators of old interpret this and what does it mean?" and then after many other questions in that vein I may perhaps get to those things Estrid asked. I am still on the questions I am asking which cross through so many other subjects in theology it will take a long time to get there, but it has been extremely rewarding in my personal studying.

I chalk it up to a difference in interests and worldview, I think people will ask only questions they are interested in usually even when being well-meaning, so that's why.
 
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Estrid

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My approach to studying Scripture is not at all like that line of questioning, but my questions for the flood story began with "how does the water released here relate to how the term is used in these Psalms I pray? Where is this in time, which is probably not linear according to these Church Fathers? How did the commentators of old interpret this and what does it mean?" and then after many other questions in that vein I may perhaps get to those things Estrid asked. I am still on the questions I am asking which cross through so many other subjects in theology it will take a long time to get there, but it has been extremely rewarding in my personal studying.

I chalk it up to a difference in interests and worldview, I think people will ask only questions they are interested in usually even when being well-meaning, so that's why.

You start with the assumption that the story is literal.

So it makes no difference if the story is true or not?
Does that apply to all of Genesis? To Exodus and the
story of Jesus' life?

There is something more fundamental than what is true?

What worldview is not interested in any distinction between
imagination and reality?

I am finding this extraordinary. Prease exprain.
 
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essentialsaltes

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I am confident that when ancient Babylonians and Egyptians looked to the sky, they saw neither the desiccated corpse of the dragon goddess Tiamat nor the naked body of the goddess Nut overhead because no such things are there to be seen. Look for yourself! If this point is correct, then why are we bound to read the narratives of Genesis 1-11 with a wooden literalness?

[Puts on literalist YEC hat]
Because those ancient people were deluded by counterfeits from Satan, but these ancient people were inspired by Truth from the living God!
[/literalist YEC hat]

As much as I can see his point that 'If the literal sense is nonsensical, then we probably shouldn't read it that way.' I don't think it's going to persuade anyone on the other side.
 
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sfs

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The review of Craig's book I mentioned earlier is now online, here. Unless you have paid access to the journal you're stuck with a low resolution view, which is readable but less than ideal. (They're supposed to make a link available to the proper version but they're having technical difficulties.)

ETA: The first link here leads to a more legible copy.
 
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Shemjaza

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The review of Craig's book I mentioned earlier is now online, here. Unless you have paid access to the journal you're stuck with a low resolution view, which is readable but less than ideal. (They're supposed to make a link available to the proper version but they're having technical difficulties.)

ETA: The first link here leads to a more legible copy.
Thanks for posting that.
 
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Estrid

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The review of Craig's book I mentioned earlier is now online, here. Unless you have paid access to the journal you're stuck with a low resolution view, which is readable but less than ideal. (They're supposed to make a link available to the proper version but they're having technical difficulties.)

ETA: The first link here leads to a more legible copy.
I notice Craig puts a pivotal amount of credibility on
what Paul has to say regarding literal v metaphorical
Adam and Eve.
I'd be curious to know if Paul's ownsnake- bite story is also
to be taken literally, as it's a most unlikely account,
even if he did have miraculous immunity.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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The review of Craig's book I mentioned earlier is now online, here. Unless you have paid access to the journal you're stuck with a low resolution view, which is readable but less than ideal. (They're supposed to make a link available to the proper version but they're having technical difficulties.)
I don't know if it's been mentioned here yet, but it's interesting that Craig hopes to avoid the inevitable genetic bottleneck problem by suggesting interbreeding with the other, not so blessed, hominins of the time.

Unfortunately, the genetic evidence appears to show that their contribution is far too small to hide such a bottleneck...
 
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sfs

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Unfortunately, the genetic evidence appears to show that their contribution is far too small to hide such a bottleneck...
Since the other, less blessed, ones could be almost identical to A&E genetically, I don't see how we could tell how large a contribution they made to modern human genetics.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Since the other, less blessed, ones could be almost identical to A&E genetically, I don't see how we could tell how large a contribution they made to modern human genetics.
IIRC he was talking about Neanderthals, Denisovans, and the like, whose genetic signature in modern human DNA is pretty small. It's true that there may have been many interbreeding branches from which the bulk of our genetic inheritance derives, but if they were not blessed with souls, it calls into question how much of the original blessed lineage actually persists in modern humans...
 
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Shemjaza

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IIRC he was talking about Neanderthals, Denisovans, and the like, whose genetic signature in modern human DNA is pretty small. It's true that there may have been many interbreeding branches from which the bulk of our genetic inheritance derives, but if they were not blessed with souls, it calls into question how much of the original blessed lineage actually persists in modern humans...
Even traits that seem to exist on a continuum like consciousness and empathy could certainly have a threshold over which you would consider human level.

I was trying to imagine a community of creatures where some had an ability to comprehend morality and identity and some did not... but when you think about it on the day to day it might not be relevant.

A dog can be loyal, friendly and cooperative without human levels of self awareness and our two species find a way to interact.

It occurs to me that while I don't believe that Adam and Eve were a literal pair of individuals and I don't believe that divine intervention was necessary for human morality and consciousness, I still accept that these traits must have begun to appear in a population of hominids and not been universal.
 
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sfs

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IIRC he was talking about Neanderthals, Denisovans, and the like, whose genetic signature in modern human DNA is pretty small.
No, he views Neanderthals and Denisovans as being human. Interbreeding with look-like-humans-but-ain't would have been earlier.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Even traits that seem to exist on a continuum like consciousness and empathy could certainly have a threshold over which you would consider human level.

I was trying to imagine a community of creatures where some had an ability to comprehend morality and identity and some did not... but when you think about it on the day to day it might not be relevant.

A dog can be loyal, friendly and cooperative without human levels of self awareness and our two species find a way to interact.

It occurs to me that while I don't believe that Adam and Eve were a literal pair of individuals and I don't believe that divine intervention was necessary for human morality and consciousness, I still accept that these traits must have begun to appear in a population of hominids and not been universal.
I suspect it was quite a long process - some sense of identity and at least the rudiments of morality would far predate hominins - even rats show elements of those traits, although recognisably human traits probably appeared relatively quickly by evolutionary timescales, with the help of cooking. But Craig seemed to be suggesting that God gave humans their special nature (souls & whatever) in a single step (Adam & Eve).

But, meh...
 
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Job 33:6

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WLC embraces both sacred myth and some current scientific understandings to locate the historical Adam.

Given the recent archaeological findings, Adam and Eve may plausibly be identified as belonging to the last common ancestor of Homo sapiens and Neanderthals, usually denominated Homo heidelbergensis or Heidelberg Man, living more than 750,000 years ago. Heidelberg Man was not some strange ape-man, but was recognizably human, with a cranial capacity of 1,260 cubic centimeters, well within the modern range. It is noteworthy that population genetics—a subfield of evolutionary biology dealing with genetic differences within and among populations—does not rule out the existence of two sole genetic progenitors of the human race living more than 500,000 years ago. The mythic history of Genesis is fully consistent with current scientific evidence concerning human origins.

https://www.firstthings.com/article/2021/10/the-historical-adam

Thoughts?

I've actually become more and more of a fan of wlc over the years. He's flexible and thinks outside of the box. He makes sincere efforts in letting scripture speak for itself rather than reading into it too much. He provides interesting ideas for discourse as well.

At the very least, his ideas are generally more thought provoking than others of the likes of Kent hovind or ken ham.

And he's also not blatantly deceptive as figures of the design institute or groups of the ID area. He sticks moreso with scriptural backing of ideas I'd say.
 
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