Reasons why you are very unwise to trust your church’s doctrines

[prodromos]

Yes, the something else I had in mind was to tell you ...

God intended for His church to continue on with the same church He founded 2000 years ago,
which means He intended His church to follow the practices of Jesus, Peter, Paul, etc.,
which are all laid out in the New Testament (and if you so request, I would be happy to send you one).

Not everything is laid out in the New Testament. The Church also handed down liturgical worship.

Thus, basically ALL churches have strayed from God's Plan ... big time!
(And the OP provides some obvious reasons for why this happened.)

I responded directly to your OP in post #60. Basically all other churches have seperated from the Church which Christ established and is still here today.

And thus, my accusations of the EOC are not false!

Of course they are.

And I refuse to argue with you about it.
.

So it's okay to accuse but when you are called on it you wont back up your claims?
How convenient.

 

[extraordinary]

So it's okay to accuse but when you are called on it you wont back up your claims? How convenient.

During the years when I was evangelizing in Bulgaria ...
the evangelicals (mostly Pentecostals) did not have much use for the old Christian church (the EOC)!
Since they know much more about this than I do, you should take it up with them.
I.E. they have ALL of their accusations lined up ... like ducks in a row.

Qvestion ...
With the EOC doin' such a marvelous job, why would Jesus rush after 1990 to:
-- start evangelical churches all over the ex-Soviet Union countries?
-- send me to evangelize Bulgaria (with SWMs) over a 15-year period?
.

 

[prodromos]

During the years when I was evangelizing in Bulgaria ...
the evangelicals (mostly Pentecostals) did not have much use for the old Christian church (the EOC)!
Since they know much more about this than I do, you should take it up with them.
I.E. they have ALL of their accusations lined up ... like ducks in a row.

Qvestion ...
With the EOC doin' such a marvelous job, why would Jesus rush after 1990 to:
-- start evangelical churches all over the ex-Soviet Union countries?
-- send me to evangelize Bulgaria (with SWMs) over a 15-year period?
.

Probably for the same reason He sent others, so they could discover the fullness of the faith. I know several evangelical missionaries who went to Bulgaria and other former Communist countries. Like you, they went not to support the existing Church which had just suffered incredible attacks both from without and from within (are you aware of just how many priests and bishops were martyred for their faith), instead they, like you sought to steal the sheep from what was left of the sheepfold. Unlike you, however, they came back as Orthodox Christians, having seen beyond the false bishops who had infiltrated the Church, and having discovered the incredible depth and richness of the true Orthodox faith.

I'm afraid you missed your true calling my friend.

 

[extraordinary]

Probably for the same reason He sent others, so they could discover the fullness of the faith.

No, I'm sorry, but it was because some things were drastically lacking with the current church, the EOC.
Otherwise, Jesus would have left things just as they were.

BTW, my orders were to go to every village in southern Bulgaria.
So, we went and distributed many materials of all kinds to 1200+ villages.

And we received persecution from all of the following:
police, army, mayors, Communist mayors and believers,
EOC priests and believers, Muslim emams and believers.

However, Jesus was more than victorious over them all.
Because Jesus is Lord.
.

 

[JacobLaw]

Alternate title
Choose this day whom you will believe: Scripture and the Holy Spirit, or your church.

Reasons why the churches historically have taught false doctrines

• Satan is “the god/ruler of this age/world” (2 Cor 4:4, John 12:31)
“the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world” (Revelation 12:9)
“the whole world lies in the power of the evil one” (1 John 5:19)
“there is no truth in him ... he is a liar” (John 8:44) … So it was very easy
for him to deceive the large church organizations (EOC, RCC, and Protestant)!

• Many church leaders have been fleshly-minded instead of spiritually-minded,
so they were easily led by Satan to deviate from God’s New Testament pattern.

• Many leaders have been primarily interested in your praise and your tithes.
There have always been leaders who are only “hired hands” (John 10:11-13),
and who do not put the welfare of Christ’s church first.
Not everyone who appears to be holy and righteous really are so.
Jesus gave many warnings about being deceived by false teachers!

• Satan did not want the churches to continue to have the spiritual power of
NT times … which was a powerful confirmation of the truth of the gospel,
and which produced many deliverances and healings of all kinds.

• Many leaders did not want to acknowledge that God had anointed others
with powerful spiritual gifts when they had not been! They might look quite
spiritually inferior and might risk losing their power, prestige, and their jobs!

• Many leaders wanted to be in control instead of having God be in control.
And they did not want those whom God chose to have any spiritual authority.

• Increasingly, leaders have taught only popular and non-threatening doctrines.

### All of the above have resulted in a historically weak and powerless church!

• Yes, the time has come when people will not endure sound doctrine; they wish
to turn their ears away from the truth and be turned aside to fables (2 Tim 4:3-4).
Warning: If you believe lies, they will take dominion over you!
We are seeing the great apostacy prior to the coming of the antichrist (2 Thes 2:3).

Examples of false doctrines taught in many churches
-- man is not born with an inherited sin nature
-- once saved always saved
-- cessationism (i.e. the 9 spiritual power gifts and the Spirit baptism have ceased)
-- pre-tribulation rapture (Jesus gives the true sequence of events in Matthew 24)

Many Christian internet radio programs are adamantly against today’s churches
for reasons such as these
• Silence re: the millions of Christians being slaughtered in other countries
• Bowing down to government policy … some accept Islam as another way,
some give the government personal data about their members, etc.
• Teaching a very watered-down and powerless gospel
• Not teaching deliverance from demons (this is important for several reasons)
• Teaching a pre-trib rapture (this does not prepare for our coming persecution)

A suggestion: Start a house church with like-minded serious believers who
desire to be totally free to search out spiritual truths without opposition.
This will help you break away from long-held biases and false doctrines.

The bottom line
Trust Scripture and the Holy Spirit (but not your church) for your salvation!

I would think then it would be wise to rightly divide the word of truth from all the versions of God's word so at least you could spiritually discern.

 

[extraordinary]

I would think then it would be wise to rightly divide the word of truth
from all the versions of God's word so at least you could spiritually discern.

Would you care to be specific as to where I have not rightly divided the word of truth?

Meanwhile, would you care to explain why Jesus sent multitudes of evangelists and missionaries
to all of the Eastern bloc (and EOC) countries ... after the fall of the Berlin Wall and Communism?
.

 

[JacobLaw]

Would you care to be specific as to where I have not rightly divided the word of truth?

Meanwhile, would you care to explain why Jesus sent multitudes of evangelists and missionaries
to all of the Eastern bloc (and EOC) countries ... after the fall of the Berlin Wall and Communism?
.

Hi Extraoridanary,
I detected that you were using modern etymology associated to versions translations and not associated to the inspired word of God, more or less private interpretations. Holy Spirit to be particular, which I don't expect you to accept that understanding, but I was just answering your question.

Now to your other Statement Question about the so called evangelist and missionaries; I really don't accept your premise that God sent them, sorry I have found them to be nothing but cover to spread another gospel.

 

[prodromos]

No, I'm sorry, but it was because some things were drastically lacking with the current church, the EOC.
Otherwise, Jesus would have left things just as they were.

I'd like to see what sort of shape the Evangelical Churches in the USA would be in if they had faced the sort of persecution the EOC had just been through.
So you believe Jesus sent you to steal sheep from the suffering shepherds and not to give support to your brethren? You've just claimed that all churches are in error so why do you think Evangelical Christianity was better for the Bulgarians than Orthodoxy?

BTW, my orders were to go to every village in southern Bulgaria.
So, we went and distributed many materials of all kinds to 1200+ villages.

And you got this command directly from Jesus? What precisely did He say?

And we received persecution from all of the following:
police, army, mayors, Communist mayors and believers,
EOC priests and believers, Muslim emams and believers.

You were stealing sheep, this is not unlike the Latin sack of Constantinople. You expect your Christian brethren to just stand by while you pillage their flock? They had already suffered at the hands of all of the above (police, army, Communists, Moslems) and now they had Evangelical missionaries as the icing on their suffering. I don't know if you understand just how low and miserable your actions were.

 

[extraordinary]

Hi Extraoridanary,
I detected that you were using modern etymology associated to versions translations and not associated to the inspired word of God, more or less private interpretations. Holy Spirit to be particular, which I don't expect you to accept that understanding, but I was just answering your question.
Now to your other Statement Question about the so called evangelist and missionaries; I really don't accept your premise that God sent them, sorry I have found them to be nothing but cover to spread another gospel.

Sorry to disappoint you ...

... But, the JKV is not the inspired word of God because it has errors in it (as do all versions).

... But, God indeed did send many Spirit-filled Christians to those EOC countries.
And, of course, Satan sent some of his own emissaries as well, e.g. Mormons and JWs.

Private joke (no longer kept private) ...
Whilst climbing up a small mountain in southern Bulgaria (which had no road going up)
on the way to a small village with about 80 people, I said to myself:
"I wonder how many Mormons have been up here lately!" ... Truly, quite a joke!
I.E. God is mucho better and successful in every way than the cults/sects.

Invitation: Would you care to read my personal spiritual testimony? Anyone curious could PM me about it.
Warning: While reading it, the precious Holy Spirit would have to reveal to you that it is indeed the truth.
.............Note: I am wondering if speaking against it would be tantamount to blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
.................... I'll take it back: you weren't there to see it personally, so you wouldn't be held accountable.
.....................On the other hand, people today are held accountable to believe the 2000-year-old gospel.
.

 

[Marvin Knox]

The bottom line
Trust Scripture and the Holy Spirit (but not your church) for your salvation!

I come from a fairly militant agnostic background. That means that I was vocal against Christianity and all religions but thought that calling myself an atheist was just as silly. No one could know, I thought.

Because of my background I tend to be a bit of a questioner. I sometimes border on the critical. But I try to keep it to honest questions and not argue just to argue.

I made it a point early on to find out what the scriptures told me about the most basic things. That is - how to get saved and stay saved first and foremost. Also the basics concerning the attributes of God and such.

These basics have served me well even as I have investigated other groups of Christians and their beliefs. I always brought new beliefs into the light of those old "basics" to see how they lined up before adopting anything into my theology.

I quite periodically revisit the basics as well to make sure that my "grid" has been right all along. Occasionally I have found it necessary to tweak my basics somewhat. Now often, but occasionally.

I have even reevaluated and changed somewhat how I view certain scriptures in light of things I have read here in the forum. Nothing really big has been changed. But a few areas of light here and there.

If a person doesn't have that kind of attitude IMO he is in the same mold as Mormons, Islam, Catholicism, Baptist, Pentecostals, and whatever else you choose to name in so far as just going along with your particular group.

You might luck out and be born into or fall into a group which is generally right on. But the odds are against you in that.

It's not much of a Barean character to not constantly reevaluate IMO.

All that being said, it would be very unwise to not get teaching from a local church and other sources. There is value in a multitude of councilors.

 

[extraordinary]

All that being said, it would be very unwise to not get teaching from a local church and other sources.
There is value in a multitude of councilors.

Okay, let's go to several local churches.
And they all have a big laugh about God doing miracles, etc. today!

Many do not believe in God doing much in the way of answering personal prayers.
Many do not even believe in having a real close personal relationship with Jesus.

I.E. Most churches today are spiritually dead ...
where the precious Holy Spirit is not seriously invited to come in and take over the service.

You have heard about the MANY European "local churches" churches that have closed their doors!

Anyone have any comments?
.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Okay, let's go to several local churches.
And they all have a big laugh about God doing miracles, etc. today!

Many do not believe in God doing much in the way of answering personal prayers.
Many do not even believe in having a real close personal relationship with Jesus.

I.E. Most churches today are spiritually dead ...
where the precious Holy Spirit is not seriously invited to come in and take over the service.

You have heard about the MANY European "local churches" churches that have closed their doors!

Anyone have any comments?
.

Are you saying that you don't need local church fellowship?
Are you saying that there are no good local churches?

What church denomination do YOU recommend?

 

[extraordinary]

Are you saying that you don't need local church fellowship?
Are you saying that there are no good local churches?
What church denomination do YOU recommend?

(a) I iz saying go where you feel fulfilled.
(b) We gave up tryin' to find one.
I recommend (a).
.

 

[prodromos]

Still waiting for a response on this.

No, I'm sorry, but it was because some things were drastically lacking with the current church, the EOC.
Otherwise, Jesus would have left things just as they were.

I'd like to see what sort of shape the Evangelical Churches in the USA would be in if they had faced the sort of persecution the EOC had just been through.
So you believe Jesus sent you to steal sheep from the suffering shepherds and not to give support to your brethren? You've just claimed that all churches are in error so why do you think Evangelical Christianity was better for the Bulgarians than Orthodoxy?

BTW, my orders were to go to every village in southern Bulgaria.
So, we went and distributed many materials of all kinds to 1200+ villages.

And you got this command directly from Jesus? What precisely did He say?

And we received persecution from all of the following:
police, army, mayors, Communist mayors and believers,
EOC priests and believers, Muslim emams and believers.

You were stealing sheep, this is not unlike the Latin sack of Constantinople. You expect your Christian brethren to just stand by while you pillage their flock? They had already suffered at the hands of all of the above (police, army, Communists, Moslems) and now they had Evangelical missionaries as the icing on their suffering. I don't know if you understand just how low and miserable your actions were.

 

[Ignatius21]

Okay, let's go to several local churches.
And they all have a big laugh about God doing miracles, etc. today!

Many do not believe in God doing much in the way of answering personal prayers.
Many do not even believe in having a real close personal relationship with Jesus.

I.E. Most churches today are spiritually dead ...
where the precious Holy Spirit is not seriously invited to come in and take over the service.

You have heard about the MANY European "local churches" churches that have closed their doors!

Anyone have any comments?
.

This is just an observation, and please forgive me, but it seems you operate on the following assumptions in many of your posts:

(1) YOU receive your orders directly from Jesus
(2) YOU follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit
(3) YOU know what a "spiritually alive" church should look like

Seems all of your arguments here can be distilled into, we are unwise to trust the teachings of any church that does not agree with YOU, because such a church does not follow the Holy Spirit or the leading of Jesus.

How are YOU not the center of your own theology???

I'm not attacking you. I'm just genuinely curious.

 

[extraordinary]

You were stealing sheep, this is not unlike the Latin sack of Constantinople.
You expect your Christian brethren to just stand by while you pillage their flock?
They had already suffered at the hands of all of the above (police, army, Communists, Moslems)
and now they had Evangelical missionaries as the icing on their suffering.
I don't know if you understand just how low and miserable your actions were.

IMO, no one who has been born-again can be stolen and talked into another "religion"!
And that is the whole point ... many EO and RC members are not born-again.

Such is the testimony of an ex-Bulgarian monastery monk to yours truly.
After he received the precious Holy Spirit inside, and then upon himself ...
he realized that most of his fellow monks were not even saved (just a job, he said).

I assure you that my wife and I could not really afford for me to go off on a "wild goose chase"!
So, we were careful to obtain several confirmations about this calling of mine!

My first trip alone in 1994 was an initiation and a testing episode, which I passed.
Thus, I was sent back again in 1996 ... and on and on until 2007.
All the while, being protected and provided for by the Lord.

My testimony is just similar to many others who have been sent into
the Eastern European EOC countries after the fall of the Berlin Wall, etc.

I understand why you don't wish to read my testimony: because you wouldn't believe a word of it.

So, all of this is for others who will read it ...
not you, because you are blind and deceived about various things spiritual.
.

 

[extraordinary]

This is just an observation, and please forgive me,
but it seems you operate on the following assumptions in many of your posts:
(1) YOU receive your orders directly from Jesus
(2) YOU follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit
(3) YOU know what a "spiritually alive" church should look like
Seems all of your arguments here can be distilled into,
we are unwise to trust the teachings of any church that does not agree with YOU,
because such a church does not follow the Holy Spirit or the leading of Jesus.
How are YOU not the center of your own theology???
I'm not attacking you. I'm just genuinely curious.

Please note the bold Scripture in my signature below.
How is this me being the center of anything?
Christians are to hear God's "still small voice" and be led by it, i.e. follow it.
It's just too bad that most churches don't seem to teach this.
For example, many of the old mainline Protestant churches in Europe,
which have closed their doors! These are examples of dead churches.
.

 

[prodromos]

IMO, no one who has been born-again can be stolen and talked into another "religion"!

Its ironic that someone who spends so much time and energy arguing against OSAS, would then make the opposite argument when it suits him.

And that is the whole point ... many EO and RC members are not born-again.

There's wheat and tares in every church, but it suits you better to turn a blind eye to your own backyard.

Such is the testimony of an ex-Bulgarian monastery monk to yours truly.
After he received the precious Holy Spirit inside, and then upon himself ...
he realized that most of his fellow monks were not even saved (just a job, he said).

I am truly sad for this former monk that the jewel of the Orthodox faith was hidden from him during the period of intense persecution the Church went through under Communism, but I can easily counter with the testimony of hundreds of monks and nuns whose lives were grace filled under similiar circumstances and far worse.

I assure you that my wife and I could not really afford for me to go off on a "wild goose chase"!
So, we were careful to obtain several confirmations about this calling of mine!

My first trip alone in 1994 was an initiation and a testing episode, which I passed.
Thus, I was sent back again in 1996 ... and on and on until 2007.
All the while, being protected and provided for by the Lord.

Glory to God! I still believe you missed your calling and the real purpose you were sent there.

My testimony is just similar to many others who have been sent into
the Eastern European EOC countries after the fall of the Berlin Wall, etc.

As I've already told you, many of those people became Orthodox Christians.

I understand why you don't wish to read my testimony: because you wouldn't believe a word of it.

Two false assumptions.

So, all of this is for others who will read it ...
not you, because you are blind and deceived about various things spiritual.

In your not so humble (and often wrong) opinion.

You apparently believe that when a man is beaten, robbed and has his house burned down that the best way to treat him is not to assist him, support him and build him up, but to take away his children and raise them as your own

 

[extraordinary]

[FONT=&quot].
[/FONT]I was watching The Tennis Channel and the program was about teaching and coaching.
One expert quoted an old famous coach: “You have to be willing to be fired every day!”
Meaning an honest coach will be frank and honest with his employer (the player) about
such things as: what is wrong with his game, what he needs to do to improve,
what his prospects are regarding his tennis future, and etc.

Of course, immediately I thought of the job a pastor/priest is supposed to be doing.
Pastors know that if they are too honest, often they will lose some of the members.
And that’s why they often bring in evangelists to preach a difficult word to them.
Ever hear of “the hard sayings of Jesus”, which are not very popular with the troops?

Pastors/priests don’t sing this tune: “You have to be willing to be fired every day!”
[FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

 

[prodromos]

Fr Kosmas, the modern day apostle to Zaire, said that a missionary has to be willing to leave his bones in the land where God has sent him, and that is exactly what he did. He is now buried in Zaire (Republic of Congo).
The same will probably also be true for Fr Themi in Sierra Leone who has taken on the unprecedented task of witnessing for our Lord in a war zone.

I'm also reminded of a church visited by Tony Campalo in the United States where there was a thriving mixed congregation of blacks and whites in an area that at the time still practiced segregation. The pastor told him that when the previous paster retired, he was asked to take his place by the church council. For his first sermon, he was led to preach on either Galations 3:28 or Colossians 3:11, extending its meaning from "neither Greek nor Jew" to "neither Black nor White".
After the service he was asked by the council not to preach on that subject again, but he did the opposite. Knowing what it was which bothered them, he hit them with the same subject again and again. As he said it, he preached that congregation down to four members. Everyone else left because they were unwilling to accept that part of the Gospel. From that point on the congregation grew and prospered.

Point is, I believe you are wrong in what you posted above. I think it is more likely that an evangelist would be invited because he has a particular gift at getting the message across while the church minister is better equipped at dealing with people's needs on an individual basis. He is a pastor because his work is pastoral, not that of an evangelist.