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Reasons why I believe the KJV is the divinely inspired perfect Word of God.

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Bible Highlighter, Feb 12, 2019.

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  1. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    Sorry, but....
    Matthew 18:15 "Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. (16) But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that "by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established." (17) And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

    Desiderius Erasmus

    Erasmus, having little time to prepare his edition, could only examine manuscripts which came to hand. His haste was so great, in fact, that he did not even write new copies for the printer; rather, he took existing manuscripts, corrected them, and submitted those to the printer. (Erasmus's corrections are still visible in the manuscript 2.)

    Nor were the manuscripts which came to hand particularly valuable. For his basic text he chose 2e, 2ap, and 1r. In addition, he was able to consult 1eap, 4ap, and 7p. Of these, only 1eap had a text independent of the Byzantine tradition -- and Erasmus used it relatively little due to the supposed "corruption" of its text.

    Erasmus also consulted the Vulgate, but only from a few late manuscripts
    Not only is 1r an Andreas manuscript rather than purely Byzantine, but it is written in such a way that Erasmus could not always tell text from commentary and based his reading on the Vulgate.

    Also, 1r is defective for the last six verses of the Apocalypse. To fill out the text, Erasmus made his own Greek translation from the Latin. He admitted to what he had done, but the result was a Greek text containing readings not found in any Greek manuscript -- but which were faithfully retained through centuries of editions of the Textus Receptus.

    This included even certain readings which were not even correct Greek (Scrivener offers as an example Rev. 17:4 AKAQARTHTOS).

    The result is a text which, although clearly Byzantine, is not a good or pure representative of the form. It is full of erratic readings -- some "Caesarean" (Scrivener attributes Matt. 22:28, 23:25, 27:52, 28:3, 4, 19, 20; Mark 7:18, 19, 26, 10:1, 12:22, 15:46; Luke 1:16, 61, 2:43, 9:1, 15, 11:49; John 1:28, 10:8, 13:20 to the influence of 1eap),

    some "Western" or Alexandrian (a good example of this is the doxology of Romans, which Erasmus placed after chapter 16 in accordance with the Vulgate, rather than after 14 along with the Byzantine text), some simply wild (as, e.g., the inclusion of 1 John 5:7-8).

    Daniel B. Wallace counts 1,838 differences between the TR and Hodges & Farstad's Byzantine text "The Majority Text Theory: History, Methods, and Critique," in Ehrman & Holmes, The Text of the New Testament in Contemporary Research, Studies & Documents, Eerdmans, 1995

    Thus it will be conceded by all reputable scholars -- even those who favour the Byzantine text -- that the Textus Receptus, in all its various forms, has no textual authority whatsoever.

    Were it not for the fact that it has been in use for so long as a basis for collations, it could be mercifully forgotten.

    Authorized in 1604 and published in 1611, the King James version naturally is based on the TR.

    Since there are people who still, for some benighted reason, use the King James Bible for Bible study, we perhaps need to add a few words about its defects (defects conceded by all legitimate textual critics, plus most people who know anything about translations).

    This is not to deny that it is a brilliant work of English prose; it is a brilliant work of English prose. But it is not an adequate English Bible.

    The first reason is the obvious textual one: It is translated from the Textus Receptus.
    Over the past century and a half, the koine has been rediscovered, and we know that the New Testament was written in a living, active language.

    This doesn't affect our understanding of the meaning of the New Testament as much as our increased knowledge of Hebrew affects our understanding of the Old -- but it does affect it somewhat.

    "Thou," initially the second person singular pronoun, (as opposed to "ye," the plural form, loosely equivalent to the American Southernism "y'all") was briefly a form used to address a social inferior, and then, under the influence of the KJV itself, treated as a form of address to one deserving of high dignity. This is genuinely confusing at best.

    Finally, the KJV does not print the text in paragraphs, but rather verse by verse. Readers can see this, but it's one thing to know it and another to really read the text in that light.

    Quite simply, while the King James Bible was a brilliant work, and a beautiful monument of sixteenth century English, it is not fit to be used as a Bible in today's world.

    Textus Receptus
     
  2. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    It's not the same meaning. One is focused on obedience and the other is focused on studying so as to understand God's Word. While both are important to our faith, only the KJV teaches that we have to study to show ourselves approved of by God. We first have to properly understand God's Word so as to apply it to our lives.
     
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I don't care what men say. I am only interested in what the Bible says.
     
  4. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    No you are not! By posting this you have ignored, turned your back on several passages of scripture because you were proven wrong about the LXX. Jesus validated the LXX by quoting from it as did all the other NT writers who quoted from the LXX.
     
  5. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Again, Jesus did not quote from the LXX because he mentions jots and tittles (Which is a form of Hebrew writing and not Greek writing; The LXX is written in Greek and not Hebrew).
     
  6. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    ASV 2 Timothy 2:15
    (15) Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
     
  7. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Right, most Modern Translations alter 2 Timothy 2:15 to say something different than the KJV and ASV here. Sometimes the Modern Translations will use the KJV as a guide and sometimes they don't. In any event, it is insanity to suggest that the Hebrews would preserve God's Word in the Greek. Sure, a few chapters of Deuteronomy were copied into Greek (not the LXX), but that is all the fragments we have (to our public knowledge). Jesus said salvation is of the Jews. Jesus appeared to be disinterested in even talking to Gentile people in his earthly ministry. Of course this changed after He was risen. To suggest that God's Word was preserved in Greek goes against the Hebrew nation that God chose so as to be a light unto the nations of the world. Seeing the nation of Israel failed to be that light to the world, Jesus (who is a Jew) fulfilled that promise for them.
     
  8. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Nobody ever said that Jesus never quoted from the Hebrew OT and nobody ever said that Jesus only quoted from the LXX. Again, that Jesus mentioned jots and tittles only one time does not show that He only quoted from the Hebrew OT. If you were to actually read the scriptures listed in the articles I quoted and linked to and compared them to the Hebrew text you would see that Jesus did in fact quote from the LXX many times. But to do that you would have to know Hebrew.
     
  9. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Again, it goes against Scripture for Jesus to quote Scripture from any Greek manuscripts because Jesus was not sent to any Gentiles yet. Jesus said salvation was of the Jews. Jesus told the Pharisees to search the Scriptures because they testify of Him. These were Hebrew Scriptures. Jesus was primarily talking to Jews and so for Him to quote any Greek manuscripts would be foreign to any Jewish or Israelite person because they only had Hebrew manuscripts of the Scriptures. If you have any understanding of the Bible, you should realize that the Hebrews considered Gentiles to be unclean. So to have a Gentile copy of the Scriptures would be like having a corrupted unclean copy of the Scriptures.
     
  10. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <J0>Again, it goes against Scripture for Jesus to quote Scripture from any Greek manuscripts because Jesus was not sent to any Gentiles yet. Jesus said salvation was of the Jews. Jesus told the Pharisees to search the Scriptures because they testify of Him. These were Hebrew Scriptures. Jesus was primarily talking to Jews and so for Him to quote any Greek manuscripts would be foreign to any Jewish or Israelite person because they only had Hebrew manuscripts of the Scriptures. If you have any understanding of the Bible, you should realize that the Hebrews considered Gentiles to be unclean. So to have a Gentile copy of the Scriptures would be like having a corrupted unclean copy of the Scriptures.<J0>
    Nonsense! All you are doing is posting assumption and presupposition perpetuated by KJVO writers. Here is actual historical evidence. The septuagint was translated by native Hebrew speaking Jews it is/was not "a Gentile copy of the Scriptures ... a corrupted unclean copy of the Scriptures."
    Jewish Encyclopedia-The Septuagint.
    The oldest and most important of all the versions made by Jews is that called "The Septuagint" ("Interpretatio septuaginta virorum" or "seniorum"). It is a monument of the Greek spoken by the large and important Jewish community of Alexandria… to show a very close similarity between the language they represent and that of the Septuagint, not to mention the Egyptian words already recognized by both Hody and Eichhorn. … According to Aristeas, the Pentateuch was translated at the time of Philadelphus, the second Ptolemy (285-247 B.C.), which translation was encouraged by the king and welcomed by the Jews of Alexandria. … Whatever share the king may have had in the work, it evidently satisfied a pressing need felt by the Jewish community, among whom a knowledge of Hebrew was rapidly waning before the demands of every-day life.
    The large number of Greek-speaking Jewish communities in Palestine, Syria, Mesopotamia, Asia Minor, and northern Africa must have facilitated its spread in all these regions. The quotations from the Old Testament found in the New are in the main taken from the Septuagint; and even where the citation is indirect the influence of this version is clearly seen. This will also explain in a measure the undoubted influence of the Septuagint upon the Syriac translation called the "Peshiṭta."
    The translation, which shows at times a peculiar ignorance of Hebrew usage, was evidently made from a codex which differed widely in places from the text crystallized by the Masorah. Its influence upon the Greek-speaking Jews must have been great. In course of time it came to be the canonical Greek Bible,
    It is the version used by the Jewish Hellenistic writers, Demetrius, Eupolemus, Artabanus, Aristeas, Ezekiel, and Aristobulus, as well as in the Book of Wisdom, the translation of Ben Sira, and the Jewish Sibyllines. Hornemann, Siegfried, and Ryle have shown that Philo bases his citations from the Bible on the Septuagint Version,
    BIBLE TRANSLATIONS - JewishEncyclopedia.com
     
  11. prodromos

    prodromos Senior Veteran Supporter

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    The Jews held the Greek language in very high esteem and considered it to have much beauty, which is why they only considered translating the Law and the Prophets into Greek and no other language.
     
  12. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    8 "But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.
    9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
    10 And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven.
    11 And, behold, immediately there were three men already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me.
    12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man’s house:
    13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
    14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
    15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
    16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
    17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
    18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life." (Acts of the Apostles 11:8-18).
     
  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    No. The Jews considered the Gentiles as unclean. So any writings of God's Holy words in Gentile tongue would have been an abomination to them. This is even more evident that Jesus said salvation was of the Jews. This is even more evident that Jesus said not to go Gentile cities during His earthly ministry. This is even more evident in the fact that he called Gentiles as dogs. This is even more evident in the fact that Jesus referred to jots and tittles (Which is Hebrew writing and not Greek writing).
     
  14. prodromos

    prodromos Senior Veteran Supporter

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    That is your opinion which is not supported by the writings of the Jews themselves.
     
  15. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    If such a thing were true, these were probably liberal Jews during that time that were considered heretical. Again, a straight forward reading of Jesus's ministry makes it clear that Gentiles were considered as unclean. It's what Acts 10-11 is all about.
     
  16. prodromos

    prodromos Senior Veteran Supporter

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    It's in the Talmud, a document held in very high regard by all Jews.
    There are four languages which are useful; Hebrew for worship, Aramaic for dirges, Greek for singing and Latin for war.

    In the Jerusalem Talmud it is recorded that the Holy Scriptures may not translated, save into Greek. Also in the Babylonian Talmud the Rabbi says: 'The Holy Scriptures? Either in Hebrew or in Greek'
    It says nothing about the language though. That is your eisegesis
     
  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    The Talmud slanders Jesus Christ and Christians. Why should we trust anything else that it says? In other words, I will side with what the Bible says and not with what the Jews say.
     
  18. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    No doubt, the Scriptures were later translated into Greek after the death of Christ. But before that point in time, it was something that was foreign.

    Check this article here to see the real dates of the Talmud:
    Ancient Synagogue Literary Sources: Babylonian Talmud 500 AD
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2019
  19. prodromos

    prodromos Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Gee, I dunno, maybe because it is a reliable record of what the Jews actually believe rather than something you pulled out of your hat?
    No, you side with your own personal interpretation over actual facts.
     
  20. FenderTL5

    FenderTL5 864511320 Supporter

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    In other words, you deny the existence of the LXX altogether?
     
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