Reason #1: the ever-changing church – Why I have converted to the Eastern Orthodox Church

[Dewi Sant]

also, the thread was going off topic at an alarming rate.

To use an architectural maxim, Orthodoxy for me represents 'more is more'.
Orthodoxy is the incarnation.
The life of the resurrection.

Those that go before us in life have entered into life everlasting.
All are alive in Christ.
Icons are not in themselves worthy of any praise, afterall, it is wood and paint. The depiction however allows a sense connection with those who are in the fullness of life. We ask the saints to pray for us as we would ask our family and friends here on earth.
We pray with all our senses, with our body, with our mind, with our eyes and ears.

More is More.

 

[ArmyMatt]

also, the thread was going off topic at an alarming rate.

To use an architectural maxim, Orthodoxy for me represents 'more is more'.
Orthodoxy is the incarnation.
The life of the resurrection.

Those that go before us in life have entered into life everlasting.
All are alive in Christ.
Icons are not in themselves worthy of any praise, afterall, it is wood and paint. The depiction however allows a sense connection with those who are in the fullness of life. We ask the saints to pray for us as we would ask our family and friends here on earth.
We pray with all our senses, with our body, with our mind, with our eyes and ears.

More is More.

very well said

 

[Tolworth John]

Peace be with you.

Protestantism at its finest.

Why do you have to insult the Orthodox faith like this?

You are a broken compass and need healing and repair.

You don't even understand the effect of what you are saying.

You should seek a Priest of the Eastern Orthodox Faith to confess your sin of disrespect and sin of contempt, and sin of vilification and sin of disobedience and repent before you get condemned by Almighty God on Judgment Day.

And then either join the Orthodox Church or Catholic Church so that they can remedy your inadequacies before you meet God on Judgment Day.

God bless you.

How have I insulted the orthodox faith?

Is what I said untrue, if it is please point it out.

 

[Tolworth John]

Hello John, and welcome to TAW.

I fear you have come with preconceptions through which you view a Wiki article on Orthodoxy to arrive at your conclusions.

In actuality, Orthodoxy teaches that we are ALL icons of Christ, because all mankind was created in His image. It has nothing to do with standing as some sort of wall, blocking access to Christ. That is an outdated misconception relating to objections to Roman Catholicism of the sixteenth century or so. Absolutely nothing to do with Orthodoxy. But when people go looking for a particular preconceived error, they are likely to find it, or at least superimpose it upon whatever they do find.

Feel free to ask if you have questions. But no need to get into a huff because some folks don't respond warmly to an action that would be akin to walking into your church and announcing that you all had traded real Christianity for something else - based on a web article someone read about your church. Better to be honest with oneself about the whole situation. Not to mention, rules at CF are against anyone going into any congregational forum and doing so. It's really not polite.

Peace to you.

So the claim that an icon is a revelation of God is not correct.
As I understoopd that this was what an icon was, at least according to this:-
"An icon is not simply a religious picture designed to arouse appropriate emotions in the beholder; it is one of the ways whereby God is revealed to us. Through icons the Orthodox Christian receives a vision of the spiritual world." (Ware, Timothy (1993-04-29). The Orthodox Church

 

[Gabriel Anton]

How have I insulted the orthodox faith?

Is what I said untrue, if it is please point it out.

It is your choice, one I cannot understand, as you've gone from being in a relationship with Jesus to having a priest to act as an gobetween for you, from salvation by faith to salvation by faith plus works, from worshipping God to venerating icons and relics.

As I said it's your choice.

Peace be with you.

Your statement: "as you've gone from being in a relationship with Jesus to having a priest to act as an gobetween for you" - You're implying just because a person has a priest, the person is putting some sort of barrier between the person and Jesus which is not true. On the contrary, a person can have a much better relationship with Jesus with the assistance of a Good Priest. Therefore your statement about the role of a Good Priest is not true.

Your statement: "from worshipping God to venerating icons and relics" - You're implying here that the Orthodox faith does not worship God but venerates icons and relics which is not true. You're basically saying God is not present or cannot be found in the Orthodox Faith, only icons and relics which is not true.

You don't have to believe what I have said to you.

I might be wrong. You never know.

You might be right.

God bless you.

 

[Tolworth John]

You're implying just because a person has a priest, the person is putting some sort of barrier between the person and Jesus which is not true.

It depends on how that priest is seen or is believed to be opperating.
If they are administering the sacriment then they are not a barrier, but if they are offering a sacrifice, then they are standing between the worshipper and God.
I really don't know if that is how the orthodox view communion?

 

[GregConstantine]

How have I insulted the orthodox faith?

Is what I said untrue, if it is please point it out.

We've already done that. Please read the numerous responses to your post.

It isn't so much that you are insulting the Orthodox faith per se, more that you are insulting yourself.

 

[GregConstantine]

"I really don't know if that is how the orthodox view communion?"

Then please go and find out before you make erroneous assumptions!

 

[ZaidaBoBaida]

The unchangingness of Orthodoxy was definitely part of the attraction.

 

[ArmyMatt]

It depends on how that priest is seen or is believed to be opperating.
If they are administering the sacriment then they are not a barrier, but if they are offering a sacrifice, then they are standing between the worshipper and God.
I really don't know if that is how the orthodox view communion?

the sacrifice is offered by Christ on the Cross, all of the people of the Church, both clergy and laity, equally can tap into the Lord's sacrifice through the Eucharist.

 

[~Anastasia~]

So the claim that an icon is a revelation of God is not correct.
As I understoopd that this was what an icon was, at least according to this:-
"An icon is not simply a religious picture designed to arouse appropriate emotions in the beholder; it is one of the ways whereby God is revealed to us. Through icons the Orthodox Christian receives a vision of the spiritual world." (Ware, Timothy (1993-04-29). The Orthodox Church

Icons do reveal spiritual truth. They were also used as teaching tools of the Church to a largely illiterate body at a time when Scriptures were prohibitively expensive for each person to own.

They have a very intricate "language" all their own in how things are depicted. Entire books are devoted to the richness and nuances.

That is somewhat different (in addition to) the representation of a spiritual reality of a person, a "window into heaven". In attempting to reduce everything to a simple understanding, it sounds like you are being confused about the meaning?

We are happy to answer questions if you have any. But since this is in response to the priest (and all of us) being an icon of Christ, it sounds like there is confusion. Rather than reducing things to simplest terms, much of Orthodoxy is better understood in terms of a broadness and richness of meaning. Very often the answer to a question is "both, and" rather than a simple "either/or".

I hope that helps a little.

 

[Tolworth John]

Icons do reveal spiritual truth. They were also used as teaching tools of the Church to a largely illiterate body at a time when Scriptures were prohibitively expensive for each person to own.

They have a very intricate "language" all their own in how things are depicted. Entire books are devoted to the richness and nuances.

That is somewhat different (in addition to) the representation of a spiritual reality of a person, a "window into heaven". In attempting to reduce everything to a simple understanding, it sounds like you are being confused about the meaning?

We are happy to answer questions if you have any. But since this is in response to the priest (and all of us) being an icon of Christ, it sounds like there is confusion. Rather than reducing things to simplest terms, much of Orthodoxy is better understood in terms of a broadness and richness of meaning. Very often the answer to a question is "both, and" rather than a simple "either/or".

I hope that helps a little.

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions and for the courtious way you did it.

It has been usefull talking to you.

Thank you once again.

 

[Tolworth John]

the sacrifice is offered by Christ on the Cross, all of the people of the Church, both clergy and laity, equally can tap into the Lord's sacrifice through the Eucharist.

Thank you for repling to my questions.
From what has been said it is clear that the orthodox is far from what I understand to be protestant Christianity.
We are all certain that we are following Jesus and only eternity will reveal the answer.

Thank you again for your replies.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thank you for repling to my questions.
From what has been said it is clear that the orthodox is far from what I understand to be protestant Christianity.
We are all certain that we are following Jesus and only eternity will reveal the answer.

Thank you again for your replies.

well, we can know before we enter eternity, that is how many of us became Orthodox.

and you are most welcome

 

[~Anastasia~]

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions and for the courtious way you did it.

It has been usefull talking to you.

Thank you once again.

You're very welcome.

Thank you for repling to my questions.
From what has been said it is clear that the orthodox is far from what I understand to be protestant Christianity.
We are all certain that we are following Jesus and only eternity will reveal the answer.

Thank you again for your replies.

"Protestant Christianity" runs across a very broad spectrum. A very great deal of what Protestants believe (except some of the very newest doctrines) we Orthodox can actually agree with - it's just that very often we may understand the background a bit differently, define things a bit differently, or very often we have a broader view.

All of this is really quite interesting, actually, and can be seen to unfold through the history of Christianity. But I'm not sure if you're actually interested in pursuing that.

If you mean simply "how we do Church" then it is true that most Protestants that arose after the first reformation do look very different from our Liturgy.

But I think eternity will reveal men's hearts, and how each of us sought after God and became conformed to Christ (or not) rather than being primarily concerned with all the various denominations. I think God is more merciful than to judge on that basis. The benefit of Orthodoxy in this is that it provides us with the tools to become the people God desires each of us to be.

Peace be with you.

 

[Basil the Great]

Peace be with you.

Protestantism at its finest.

Why do you have to insult the Orthodox faith like this?

You are a broken compass and need healing and repair.

You don't even understand the effect of what you are saying.

You should seek a Priest of the Eastern Orthodox Faith to confess your sin of disrespect and sin of contempt, and sin of vilification and sin of disobedience and repent before you get condemned by Almighty God on Judgment Day.

And then either join the Orthodox Church or Catholic Church so that they can remedy your inadequacies before you meet God on Judgment Day.

God bless you.

Well, a most interesting reply there, Gabriel Anton. However, is it proper for a Protestant to confess to an Eastern Orthodox priest? Even if a priest agrees to hear his confession, does the priest have the power to grant absolution to a non-Orthodox Christian?

 

[ArmyMatt]

sure a Protestant can confess to an Orthodox priest. you can confess to anyone. but you are right absolution is only for those in the Church.

 

[Gabriel Anton]

Well, a most interesting reply there, Gabriel Anton. However, is it proper for a Protestant to confess to an Eastern Orthodox priest? Even if a priest agrees to hear his confession, does the priest have the power to grant absolution to a non-Orthodox Christian?

Peace be with you.

I distinctly remember that Forgiveness is a condition that God imposed on everyone. I am Certain of this. Don't forget, the Church is a place to heal the spiritually sick.

The reason why he was directed to go to an Eastern Orthodox Priest is because the sin is against God in the Orthodox Faith, and also the Priests of the Orthodox Faith.

It's like if I insult you, I have to then approach you to ask forgiveness and apologise when shown that I did indeed insult you. It is an act of humility to heal an act of pride, an act of respect to heal an act of disrespect, an act of obedience to heal an act of disobedience.

It's basically for your own good.

Well, joining the Orthodox Faith would not be so bad, would it?

Tolworth John might become a Saint there one day, who knows?

He might become a Great Blessing to the Eastern Orthodox Faith.

Maybe God has designs for him there, you know?

God bless you.

 

[Basil the Great]

I totally understand your reasoning. I did a quick internet search after my post, but could find nothing about it in an Orthodox discussion. I did find the subject among Catholic discussions and it was mentioned there that a Protestant could go to a RC priest and confess, but he could not receive absolution, except in rare circumstances, such as danger of death, etc.

 

[Barney2.0]

I keep hearing the claim the we worship our icons, this is an extreme falsity. The simplest question I can give you would be this who is in that icon? If you can answer that question that pretty much somes it up.