REAL FIRE, or STRANGE FIRE?

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murjahel

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Hebrews 10:31 (KJV)
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
 

It is a frightening thing to see what happened to Nadab and Abihu, and what happened to Ananias and Sapphira. Their words and actions blasphemed what the Holy Spirit was trying to do, and brought swift judgment. Isaiah asked for a cleansing of his lips that had spoken things for which he was ashamed, and the true fire of God cleansed him. We need to pray for a cleansing fire of revival, a Pentecostal, Holy Spirit blessed, powerful gifts shown to this world from that Holy Spirit, by cleansing away the STRANGE FIRE, and replacing it with REAL FIRE.


The Bible predicts that in the last days, there will be many in the churches that have apostatized and are producing STRANGE FIRE, and not TRUE FIRE.


2 Peter 2:1-6 (KJV)
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an example unto those that after should live ungodly;


False teachers have brought STRANGE FIRE into the church. They have pernicious ways, seek though covetousness to enrich themselves, making merchandise of the congregations to which they spread heretical doctrines. God is still angry at ‘strange fire’, and He will not spare those who do this and do not soon repent.


Jude 1:4 (KJV)
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.


Unawares, there have been some creep into the church circles, allowing sin, denying repentance, denying in word and action, through STRANGE FIRE, our Lord and Savior.


2 Timothy 3:1-9 (KJV)
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, truce breakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, high minded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.



Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, they were sons of Balaam, and traveled for a time with the Israelites out of Egypt. Their folly was finally made manifest and judgment fell upon them. In that same way, the STRANGE FIRE of some in these last days will be judged.


1 Timothy 4:1-2 (KJV)
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy;
having their conscience seared with a hot iron;


We are in that time of ‘strange fire’ doctrines, and the seducing spirits imitating the Holy Spirit, and confusing many in the church. The hypocritical lies, the seared consciences of the perpetrators of the same sins as Nadab, Abihu, Ananias, Sapphira, Simon magus, have led many astray. The Lord forewarned us often of this kind of thing in the last days. The Lord will judge those of STRANGE FIRE.


1 Peter 4:17-18 (KJV)
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?


These with ‘strange fire’ are the ones who can continue to cause trouble, stir up strife, spiritually abuse others, gossip, etc. and never want to repent or change their ways. They can always find justification for living contrary to the two commandments of Jesus -- to love God supremely, and to love their neighbor as themselves. When the altars are empty of tears; when people shout, but can't weep over their own sins, or anyone else's; when judgmentalism is prevalent, but self examination isn't; then it is likely that some have spread doctrines of STRANGE FIRE.


These ‘strange fire’ promoters may be able: to do Christian service, to hold church positions, to weep (not in repentance, but in feeling sorry for themselves), to carry on a hypocritical pretense of serving God, etc.; but in reality- they have lost God!

There are many that, perhaps have not sinned the unpardonable sin yet, are so close to this terrible sin, that only a revival of great proportions may save them from pushing a little farther in resisting the Holy Spirit to the unpardonable sin.

God is sending them messages, dreams, visions, and prophets to warn them. I pray, they listen!!

The STRANGE FIRE sins can lead to the level where it is unpardonable, judge-able. We are seeing some who must be very near that point now. We need to intercede for them, and preach the un-adulterated Word of God ourselves.

We must offer the TRUE FIRE, and rebuke the STRANGE FIRE.
 
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Gospel Guy

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To name names is always risky, for perhaps the info received is not accurate, or perhaps they just moments before repented to God and got things right with Him, then I would be speaking justified criticism of what they had been and had done, but God would no longer remember their sin... and I would be...

I wasn't thinking of sins of the flesh a well known preacher may be involved with, but rather teaching they may be putting out with that isn't what the Bible teaches... such as this "extreme grace" going around where some think it's OK to live just like the world, not taking holiness seriously and still think they are going to Heaven.

But, I get the point that it would be better to teach what the Word says and compare popular teachings to the Word.
 
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I wasn't thinking of sins of the flesh a well known preacher may be involved with, but rather teaching they may be putting out with that isn't what the Bible teaches... such as this "extreme grace" going around where some think it's OK to live just like the world, not taking holiness seriously and still think they are going to Heaven.

But, I get the point that it would be better to teach what the Word says and compare popular teachings to the Word.
As much as this thread potentially has a lot to offer, it definitely suffers in that it does not address specific issues and of course if it did it would probably result in a webserver meltdown.
 
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Gospel Guy

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To me calling every move of God that one don't happen to like, "strange fire" is a manipulative attempt at quenching the Holy Spirit, and is playing dangerously close to blasphemy.

Actually... it would be the person opposing the will of the Lord that is getting close to blasphemy. :doh:

WHY would anyone oppose any "move of God that one don't happen to like" unless they were being led by some being other than the Holy Spirit??? :confused:

We are supposed to be converted and become like little children according to Jesus, which means when the Lord says go in this direction, we are supposed to say "OK, here I go following you Lord!"

Why would anyone not want to be like this???
 
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Gospel Guy

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As much as this thread potentially has a lot to offer, it definitely suffers in that it does not address specific issues and of course if it did it would probably result in a webserver meltdown.

I'm finding it simply an exhortation to not oppose the Lord... you aren't getting anything out of it?

Sometimes simple encouragement and exhortation is good... it serves as a reminder to follow the Lord and reminds us that He is the only One we should be pleasing.
 
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Biblicist

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I'm finding it simply an exhortation to not oppose the Lord... you aren't getting anything out of it?

Sometimes simple encouragement and exhortation is good... it serves as a reminder to follow the Lord and reminds us that He is the only One we should be pleasing.
Certainly, Yes!

When I read through murjahel’s posts I had to agree that we need to be ever present with what we hear and read as there are definitely a lot of wolves in sheeps clothing out there. This may be a limitation of a general public forum such as CF as it can be a bit hard to address some specific issues and undoubtedly there will be those who could be unsure of who the ‘questionable’ ministries could be and with precisely what doctrines that murjahel could be referring to.

Now for me, I think that Simon Magus is probably one of the ‘heroes of the faith’, well maybe that’s taking it a bit far but how I would love to see the many errant so called ‘ministries’ who ply the Christian scene, to one day see them repent of their wickedness, which was something that Simon was able to do.
 
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Gospel Guy

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I think that Simon Magus is probably one of the ‘heroes of the faith’

No, he couldn't possibly be a hero of the faith... if He was, Jesus would have thought enough of him to put more details about his life in the Word of God... which means Jesus did not consider this guy to be a hero of the faith.

One thing we are going to have to get back to is the realization that God does have an official canon of scripture that He says is His official Word... all other sources are not inspired by God and is therefor NOT the Word of God.
 
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No, he couldn't possibly be a hero of the faith... if He was, Jesus would have thought enough of him to put more details about his life in the Word of God... which means Jesus did not consider this guy to be a hero of the faith.

One thing we are going to have to get back to is the realization that God does have an official canon of scripture that He says is His official Word... all other sources are not inspired by God and is therefor NOT the Word of God.
That's my point. As the Scriptures have recorded how Simon repented of his sin I guess then that we should not place too much weight on the other sources. If we take the Scriptures silence to its logical end, could we also say that the Ethiopian eunuch turned back to his old ways as the Scriptures do not speak of him anymore; and of course what happened to the Roman Centurion who was the first Gentile convert?

Could imagine how this thread would go if we were to discuss B__H__, T___B___ and K__ K__?

But for those who see Simon as a problematic character then that's up to each individual to decide.
 
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Gospel Guy

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If he repented, then great... that doesn't mean he is a hero of the faith.

And, if he tried to buy the anointing of God and others are following and teaching this same concept... that doesn't mean Simon himself did not repent and see the error of his ways.

Using what he did in error is simply using him as an example of what NOT to do.
 
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If he repented, then great... that doesn't mean he is a hero of the faith.

And, if he tried to buy the anointing of God and others are following and teaching this same concept... that doesn't mean Simon himself did not repent and see the error of his ways.

Using what he did in error is simply using him as an example of what NOT to do.
From what I can tell, once poor old Simon realised his stupidity, he immediately repented and that’s about it. I know that there are numerous extra-biblical sources that have compounded Simons problems but they don’t carry the same weight as the Scriptures.

I would love to see the many 'celebrity' tele-evangelists repent of this type of behaviour but I suspect that they are probably enjoying the status and wealth that comes from their efforts - at least Simon did a quick about turn.

. . . . . . .

Maybe we should keep our replies to PM's as I think that maybe murjahel might be wondering what we are doing with his very helpful thread.
 
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Gospel Guy

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I would love to see the many 'celebrity' tele-evangelists repent of this type of behaviour but I suspect that they are probably enjoying the status and wealth that comes from their efforts - at least Simon did a quick about turn.

Yes, he did repent... an honest heart is what the Lord enjoys seeing.

OK, so waiting on the next post from the OP :thumbsup:
 
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murjahel

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Acts 8:20-24 (KJV)
20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.


Notice some things here... Peter recommended 'repent'... and said that he discerned 'a gall of bitterness' and the 'bond of iniquity'...

The word 'repent' is absent, and repentance is absent in Simon's words...

he prayed 'pray for me that I do not suffer what you said...' that is not repentance...

that is like the 'thief' caught with his hands in the till, saying, please don't send me to jail...

or...
the terrorist who just killed hundreds saying 'don't send me to Guantanamo'...

or Charles Manson saying 'let me out of jail'...

none of those statements make them 'hero's of faith'... none are true repentance... God never is fooled even today with repentance that is just sorrow for being caught, sorrow for having to go to jail now...

repentance is a 'change of mind' toward sin... metanoeo...

the early church is abundant with talk of the 'simoniai'... they were the gnostic cult in its beginning... and the early church would laugh at this statement in acts 9:24 being thought to be repentance...

all criminals are sorry they get caught... and ask to not have to suffer any penalty for their crimes... even the devil will ask not to be put in the lake of fire... that is not repentance...

The Bible specifically says exactly what Simon magus said, so we who read could see that it was not, no not, repentance... he did not pray to God himself, he did not repent, nor ask forgiveness, nor show sorrow for his evil desires... he only... ONLY ... wanted to escape the judgment for his sins... that is true of every criminal, every sinner, even of the devil...
 
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. . . Notice some things here... Peter recommended 'repent'... and said that he discerned 'a gall of bitterness' and the 'bond of iniquity'...

The word 'repent' is absent, and repentance is absent in Simon's words...

he prayed 'pray for me that I do not suffer what you said...' that is not repentance...

that is like the 'thief' caught with his hands in the till, saying, please don't send me to jail...

or...
the terrorist who just killed hundreds saying 'don't send me to Guantanamo'...

or Charles Manson saying 'let me out of jail'...

none of those statements make them 'hero's of faith'... none are true repentance... God never is fooled even today with repentance that is just sorrow for being caught, sorrow for having to go to jail now...

repentance is a 'change of mind' toward sin... metanoeo...

the early church is abundant with talk of the 'simoniai'... they were the gnostic cult in its beginning... and the early church would laugh at this statement in acts 9:24 being thought to be repentance...

all criminals are sorry they get caught... and ask to not have to suffer any penalty for their crimes... even the devil will ask not to be put in the lake of fire... that is not repentance...

The Bible specifically says exactly what Simon magus said, so we who read could see that it was not, no not, repentance... he did not pray to God himself, he did not repent, nor ask forgiveness, nor show sorrow for his evil desires... he only... ONLY ... wanted to escape the judgment for his sins... that is true of every criminal, every sinner, even of the devil...
Yes, I see your line of thought, but if we look at Acts 2 where Peter strenuously warned the Jews that if they did not repent that it would amount to “off with their heads”; their response was simply “What shall we do" and nor do we see them repenting directly before God”. As we have no direct reference to the word 'repentance' on their part (as with Simon), should we believe that the 3000 ended up in sin and became reprobates?

For me, I think that it would be best to maybe not go too far beyond the text and when it comes to the writings of the second and third centuries, they really need to be treated with some caution.

Interestingly enough, as with those who are involved with this “strange fire”, it should be pointed out that most of them have gone way beyond the text with their own viewpoints; so we can see just how easy it can be to go beyond the boundaries of Scripture.

As for the wording with Simon's reply, it does seem to be that he quickly realised that he was in serious trouble and of course he was standing before Peter as well. I think that if I was in the same situation and Peter was giving me a dressing down that I would probably ask him for a quick and easy solution - as was the situation with the Jews on the Day of Pentecost who stood before Peter.
 
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murjahel

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The word 'repent' does not necessarily need used, but it does need to take place at salvation. The3000 on the day of Pentecost, 'wanted to know what to do' and were told, and did it... obviously... the thief on the cross had his heart read by Jesus, and there was an obvious change in his mind, i.e. repentance...

Simon magus is talked about much in the early church... Justin Martyr came from Samaria as did Simon magus, only a short time after Simon began there... and the remnants of Simon's so called ministry would be evident, and to say that Justin Martyr had someone else in mind would make no sense...

What some seem to define 'repentance' as, surely does confirm what we see in this world today... if repentance is watered down to the idea expressed by Simon magus, we then would have to say that both thieves on the crosses were saved, Jezebel and Ahab, Charles Manson, all the terrorists in Guantanamo, etc would all be saved...


I guess it is why some today feel saved, but sins still abound, God-likeness is never evident... this watered down idea of repentance, with no fruit from it in righteousness is a major problem of the church today...

So... I still define 'repentance' like the Greek word for it means... am not going to water it down... if Simon magus had repented, he would not have done all that he did...

true fire is fire that comes from the original sacrifice, confirmed by the fire of God from heaven... strange fire is 'man's idea' being promoted as good for salvation... Nadab and Abihu tried strange fire and God did not confirm it... to make repentance be wanting to escape punishment for sin only, and no real change of mind and heart toward sin, as we see in the history of Simon magus is not God's definition of repentance.

That 'definition' of sin would be gladly accepted by most though... 'keep on sinning, be heretical in doctrine, encourage others to sin, and claim salvation because you don't want punished for it... WOW, what a heyday for sinners... Simon magus liked that strange fire idea... and so would all sinners of today...

if repentance had taken place in the heart of Simon magus, the following history of him would be far different...
 
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The word 'repent' does not necessarily need used, . . .
As we could probably go on for ages regarding Simon, I suppose that we should probably just agree to disagree as it all comes down to conjecture and of course even the Scriptures don't really give us all that much to go on.
 
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to make repentance be wanting to escape punishment for sin only, and no real change of mind and heart toward sin, as we see in the history of Simon magus is not God's definition of repentance.

Sounds like today's so-called "extreme grace" message being taught on TV.

In reality, Grace seems to be God's presence... that purges us from iniquity which is the desire to agree with anything other than what God is in agreement with!

It would seem that due to God's unmerited favor... He provided a way for us to have access to the Holy Spirit, Who is the Spirit of Grace mention in Romans 5:2 which is living IN CHRIST and turning away from our old life IN ADAM
 
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murjahel

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Sounds like today's so-called "extreme grace" message being taught on TV.

In reality, Grace seems to be God's presence... that purges us from iniquity which is the desire to agree with anything other than what God is in agreement with!

It would seem that due to God's unmerited favor... He provided a way for us to have access to the Holy Spirit, Who is the Spirit of Grace mention in Romans 5:2 which is living IN CHRIST and turning away from our old life IN ADAM


many strange fire doctrines were first instigated by this simon magus... and we find some or most still going on... God gives unmerited favor, and it transforms us to beings that are free from the guilt of sin.. fruit of this actually transpiring is our new nature, the new creation, that seeks to serve Him... if we fail, we repent... if we feel no need to be sorry or to change our mind toward sin, we either have backslidden or never were saved... however you want to put it... transformation of grace on a life does not make us perfect, it does make us changed in mind toward sin... we repent when we fail.
 
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Gospel Guy

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many strange fire doctrines were first instigated by this simon magus... and we find some or most still going on... God gives unmerited favor, and it transforms us to beings that are free from the guilt of sin.. fruit of this actually transpiring is our new nature, the new creation, that seeks to serve Him... if we fail, we repent... if we feel no need to be sorry or to change our mind toward sin, we either have backslidden or never were saved... however you want to put it... transformation of grace on a life does not make us perfect, it does make us changed in mind toward sin... we repent when we fail.

And... what I've found is that if we continue standing in our relationship with the Lord and don't run off back in to sin, the Father purges us of iniquity so that we bare more fruit.

John 15:1,2
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, He purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.


A good companion scripture for this can be found in Romans 8 (actually, the entire chapter is great!) where the Lord exhorts us to put to death the deeds of the flesh thru the Spirit... this is where the Lord removes the desire to do things that bother us and are great temptation to us

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Another good one for becoming free from the desire to sin is...

Hebrews 9:14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

This is what helped me realize that I do not have to put up with being tempted to do the things I used to do as a young guy out living in sin.
 
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murjahel

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Yes, the desire to continue in sin should be gone at salvation. There are or can be occasional falls, but that desire to be right with God leads us to repentance, and we continue walking with the Lord. Romans 7 and 8 originally had no chapter division, no verse division, and do go together. We do continue to battle the flesh, the devils, but... the Holy Spirit of grace is changing our nature so that we continue to want, as Paul expresses, to do good, even if we occasionally fail in that attempt. God is gracious and merciful to forgive, if we 'confess our sins', and He 'cleanses us from all unrighteousness...' I John 1:9
 
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Yes, the desire to continue in sin should be gone at salvation. There are or can be occasional falls, but that desire to be right with God leads us to repentance, and we continue walking with the Lord. Romans 7 and 8 originally had no chapter division, no verse division, and do go together. We do continue to battle the flesh, the devils, but... the Holy Spirit of grace is changing our nature so that we continue to want, as Paul expresses, to do good, even if we occasionally fail in that attempt. God is gracious and merciful to forgive, if we 'confess our sins', and He 'cleanses us from all unrighteousness...' I John 1:9

Now c',mon brother... that's not what mainstream Christianity is teachin on TV!

It's good to see others that desire what God's Word teaches over what is popular. :thumbsup:
To me, this is what "full Gospel" is...
 
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