LDS Reading Doctrine and Covenants 88

[Rescued One]

And I'd suggest a reading of D&C 88, which is talking about the resurrection, not about becoming like God. In this context, they are talking about "being equal with God" to living in God's presence -- essentially the same idea as going to Heaven. This appears to be a prime example of quote mining.

When in doubt, go to the source that is published by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Don't take my word for it --- read their words for it:

D&C 88:107. The Saints Will Be Filled with God’s Glory and “Be Made Equal with Him”

The sons and daughters of God possess the potential to become like their parents.

Elder Parley P. Pratt said: “Every man who is eventually made perfect—raised from the dead and filled, or quickened, with a fulness of celestial glory—will become like them in every respect, physically and in intellect, attributes, or powers.


“The very germs of these godlike attributes being engendered in man, the offspring of Deity, only need cultivating, improving, developing, and advancing by means of a series of progressive changes, in order to arrive at the fountain ‘Head,’ the standard, the climax of Divine Humanity.” (Key to the Science of Theology,p. 20.)
The Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, Published by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, copyright 1981, p. 204
Section 88, The Olive Leaf

 

[mmksparbud]

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

That's what he thought also---and his end will be:

Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Abd God is not going to thank him for being responsible for our ability to have children, either! Seeing as He gave the command for us to be fruitful and multiply--not Satan!

Psa 127:3 Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.

 

[SimplyMe]

As I mentioned in the other thread, I find this rather comical; you double down on what I accused you of doing and don't even try to support your claim.

Again, you quote the single verse from D&C 88, completely ignoring the context of what the chapter is about -- noting that the chapter is about what happens during the resurrection. This is a prime example of quote mining to make a point that just isn't supported by the statement in context.

On top of that, none of the supporting quotes you make support they claim you made with the verse from D&C 88 -- none of them say that Mormon's believe they will become equal with God. Yes, they do say that they believe they will become a god; and actually, they tend to support what I stated, that they believe being the "Offspring of Diety" (to use the statement from the Ensign that you quoted) that they can become like (but not equal to) their Heavenly Father.

 

[Rescued One]

As I mentioned in the other thread, I find this rather comical; you double down on what I accused you of doing and don't even try to support your claim.

Again, you quote the single verse from D&C 88, completely ignoring the context of what the chapter is about -- noting that the chapter is about what happens during the resurrection. This is a prime example of quote mining to make a point that just isn't supported by the statement in context.

On top of that, none of the supporting quotes you make support they claim you made with the verse from D&C 88 -- none of them say that Mormon's believe they will become equal with God. Yes, they do say that they believe they will become a god; and actually, they tend to support what I stated, that they believe being the "Offspring of Diety" (to use the statement from the Ensign that you quoted) that they can become like (but not equal to) their Heavenly Father.

When in doubt, go to the source that is published by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Don't take my word for it --- read their words for it!

 

[ArmenianJohn]

As I mentioned in the other thread, I find this rather comical; you double down on what I accused you of doing and don't even try to support your claim.

Again, you quote the single verse from D&C 88, completely ignoring the context of what the chapter is about -- noting that the chapter is about what happens during the resurrection. This is a prime example of quote mining to make a point that just isn't supported by the statement in context.

On top of that, none of the supporting quotes you make support they claim you made with the verse from D&C 88 -- none of them say that Mormon's believe they will become equal with God. Yes, they do say that they believe they will become a god; and actually, they tend to support what I stated, that they believe being the "Offspring of Diety" (to use the statement from the Ensign that you quoted) that they can become like (but not equal to) their Heavenly Father.

It's clear you're trying to get around what is plainly written in D&C 88:107
"And then shall the angels be crowned with the glory of his might, and the saints shall be filled with his glory, and receive their inheritance and be made equal with him."

If you can provide "context" which can clearly alter what is plainly stated here then feel free. So far you haven't done so. All you've done is accused others of ignoring such a supposed "context" while failing to identify what that is. Well, you do provide what you claim to be the context but you don't make clear how that context negates the clear message of verse 107 which states that "the saints" are "made equal with him".

Until you do that, you really aren't making any rational or convincing argument but rather just throwing accusations and hoping nobody notices that they're empty. Well, I noticed, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

 

[Ironhold]

It's clear you're trying to get around what is plainly written in D&C 88:107
"And then shall the angels be crowned with the glory of his might, and the saints shall be filled with his glory, and receive their inheritance and be made equal with him."

If you can provide "context" which can clearly alter what is plainly stated here then feel free. So far you haven't done so. All you've done is accused others of ignoring such a supposed "context" while failing to identify what that is. Well, you do provide what you claim to be the context but you don't make clear how that context negates the clear message of verse 107 which states that "the saints" are "made equal with him".

Until you do that, you really aren't making any rational or convincing argument but rather just throwing accusations and hoping nobody notices that they're empty. Well, I noticed, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

...Except, the full theological context of a child becoming like a parent has been explained several times over by now.

 

[Rescued One]

Latter-day Saints, please give us a link to an authorized explanation that doesn't contradict the the Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, page 204. Thank you.

 

[SimplyMe]

It's clear you're trying to get around what is plainly written in D&C 88:107
"And then shall the angels be crowned with the glory of his might, and the saints shall be filled with his glory, and receive their inheritance and be made equal with him."

If you can provide "context" which can clearly alter what is plainly stated here then feel free. So far you haven't done so. All you've done is accused others of ignoring such a supposed "context" while failing to identify what that is. Well, you do provide what you claim to be the context but you don't make clear how that context negates the clear message of verse 107 which states that "the saints" are "made equal with him".

Until you do that, you really aren't making any rational or convincing argument but rather just throwing accusations and hoping nobody notices that they're empty. Well, I noticed, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

I told you the context, the context is the rest of the chapter. I've explained it multiple times, the fact you refuse to hear does not change that fact. Have a great day.

 

[mmksparbud]

I told you the context, the context is the rest of the chapter. I've explained it multiple times, the fact you refuse to hear does not change that fact. Have a great day.

107 And then shall the angels be crowned with the glory of his might, and the saints shall be filled with his glory, and receive their inheritance and be made equal with him.

108 And then shall the first angel again sound his trump in the ears of all living, and reveal the secret acts of men, and the mighty works of God in the first thousand years.

109 And then shall the second angel sound his trump, and reveal the secret acts of men, and the thoughts and intents of their hearts, and the mighty works of God in the second thousand years—

110 And so on, until the seventh angel shall sound his trump; and he shall stand forth upon the land and upon the sea, and swear in the name of him who sitteth upon the throne, that there shall be time no longer; and Satan shall be bound, that old serpent, who is called the devil, and shall not be loosed for the space of a thousand years.

111 And then he shall be loosed for a little season, that he may gather together his armies.

112 And Michael, the seventh angel, even the archangel, shall gather together his armies, even the hosts of heaven.

113 And the devil shall gather together his armies; even the hosts of hell, and shall come up to battle against Michael and his armies.

114 And then cometh the battle of the great God; and the devil and his armies shall be cast away into their own place, that they shall not have power over the saints any more at all.

115 For Michael shall fight their battles, and shall overcome him who seeketh the throne of him who sitteth upon the throne, even the Lamb.

116 This is the glory of God, and the sanctified; and they shall not any more see death.

117 Therefore, verily I say unto you, my friends, call your solemn assembly, as I have commanded you.

118 And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith.

119 Organize yourselves; prepare every needful thing; and establish a house, even a house of prayer, a house of fasting, a house of faith, a house of learning, a house of glory, a house of order, a house of God;

120 That your incomings may be in the name of the Lord; that your outgoings may be in the name of the Lord; that all your salutations may be in the name of the Lord, with uplifted hands unto the Most High.

121 Therefore, cease from all your light speeches, from all laughter, from all your lustful desires, from all your pride and light-mindedness, and from all your wicked doings.

122 Appoint among yourselves a teacher, and let not all be spokesmen at once; but let one speak at a time and let all listen unto his sayings, that when all have spoken that all may be edified of all, and that every man may have an equal privilege.

123 See that ye love one another; cease to be covetous; learn to impart one to another as the gospel requires.

124 Cease to be idle; cease to be unclean; cease to find fault one with another; cease to sleep longer than is needful; retire to thy bed early, that ye may not be weary; arise early, that your bodies and your minds may be invigorated.

125 And above all things, clothe yourselves with the bond of charity, as with a mantle, which is the bond of perfectness and peace.

126 Pray always, that ye may not faint, until I come. Behold, and lo, I will come quickly, and receive you unto myself. Amen.

127 And again, the order of the house prepared for the presidency of the school of the prophets, established for their instruction in all things that are expedient for them, even for all the officers of the church, or in other words, those who are called to the ministry in the church, beginning at the high priests, even down to the deacons—

128 And this shall be the order of the house of the presidency of the school: He that is appointed to be president, or teacher, shall be found standing in his place, in the house which shall be prepared for him.

129 Therefore, he shall be first in the house of God, in a place that the congregation in the house may hear his words carefully and distinctly, not with loud speech.

130 And when he cometh into the house of God, for he should be first in the house—behold, this is beautiful, that he may be an example—

131 Let him offer himself in prayer upon his knees before God, in token or remembrance of the everlasting covenant.

132 And when any shall come in after him, let the teacher arise, and, with uplifted hands to heaven, yea, even directly, salute his brother or brethren with these words:

133 Art thou a brother or brethren? I salute you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, in token or remembrance of the everlasting covenant, in which covenant I receive you to fellowship, in a determination that is fixed, immovable, and unchangeable, to be your friend and brother through the grace of God in the bonds of love, to walk in all the commandments of God blameless, in thanksgiving, forever and ever. Amen.

134 And he that is found unworthy of this salutation shall not have place among you; for ye shall not suffer that mine house shall be polluted by him.

135 And he that cometh in and is faithful before me, and is a brother, or if they be brethren, they shall salute the president or teacher with uplifted hands to heaven, with this same prayer and covenant, or by saying Amen, in token of the same.

136 Behold, verily, I say unto you, this is an ensample unto you for a salutation to one another in the house of God, in the school of the prophets.

137 And ye are called to do this by prayer and thanksgiving, as the Spirit shall give utterance in all your doings in the house of the Lord, in the school of the prophets, that it may become a sanctuary, a tabernacle of the Holy Spirit to your edification.

138 And ye shall not receive any among you into this school save he is clean from the blood of this generation;

139 And he shall be received by the ordinance of the washing of feet, for unto this end was the ordinance of the washing of feet instituted.

140 And again, the ordinance of washing feet is to be administered by the president, or presiding elder of the church.

141 It is to be commenced with prayer; and after partaking of bread and wine, he is to gird himself according to the pattern given in the thirteenth chapter of John’s testimony concerning me. Amen.

What part of this explains 107?

 

[Rescued One]

I told you the context, the context is the rest of the chapter. I've explained it multiple times, the fact you refuse to hear does not change that fact. Have a great day.

Your statement says you know more about the resurrection per Mormonism than the leaders of the LDS church know; you don't believe their published lesson manuals which they have approved.
Section 88, The Olive Leaf

Furthermore, if you are a Christian, why are you arguing with another Christian and implying that I'm not interested in presenting truth?

 

[SimplyMe]

Your statement says you know more about the resurrection per Mormonism than the leaders of the LDS church know; you don't believe their published lesson manuals which they have approved.
Section 88, The Olive Leaf

Furthermore, if you are a Christian, why are you arguing with another Christian and implying that I'm not interested in presenting truth?

So, show me again, where does Section 88 talk about becoming Gods, specifically? I mean, not proof texting the quote and then combining it with comments that do talk about become Gods to make it say what you want it to say?

Additionally, don't assign a comment to me that I did not say -- I don't believe I ever said that you weren't interested in presenting truth. Instead, I stated that you have apparently used less than reliable sources that have led you to things that Mormon's just don't believe. My interest is that you aren't going to win converts from Mormonism when they see that you are misrepresenting their facts -- whether you do it honestly or not.

In fact, your responses to me indicate exactly the type of attitude people get when you try to explain to them that what they believe to be true is not -- and they respond emotionally (attacking my religion and responding with comments that don't actually prove what you are trying to claim) and close themselves off from actually hearing what you are saying.

 

[Rescued One]

Additionally, don't assign a comment to me that I did not say -- I don't believe I ever said that you weren't interested in presenting truth. Instead, I stated that you have apparently used less than reliable sources that have led you to things that Mormon's just don't believe. My interest is that you aren't going to win converts from Mormonism when they see that you are misrepresenting their facts -- whether you do it honestly or not.

I did NOT assign a comment to you. I stated what your comments imply.

God does the converting to Christ. People didn't bring me out of the LDS church. The Holy Spirit did.

I am NOT misrepresenting their facts --- neither honestly nor dishonestly. I am not here to read LDS minds to know what each individual Latter-day Saint believes. I am not here to state what they believe. I mainly present their teachings except when I quote LDS who deviate from official teachings.

People here (other than I) are questioning your religious affiliation (perhaps because you spend so much time attacking my posts).

In fact, your responses to me indicate exactly the type of attitude people get when you try to explain to them that what they believe to be true is not -- and they respond emotionally (attacking my religion and responding with comments that don't actually prove what you are trying to claim) and close themselves off from actually hearing what you are saying.

I have no comment under these circumstances.

 

[mmksparbud]

So, show me again, where does Section 88 talk about becoming Gods, specifically? I mean, not proof texting the quote and then combining it with comments that do talk about become Gods to make it say what you want it to say?

Additionally, don't assign a comment to me that I did not say -- I don't believe I ever said that you weren't interested in presenting truth. Instead, I stated that you have apparently used less than reliable sources that have led you to things that Mormon's just don't believe. My interest is that you aren't going to win converts from Mormonism when they see that you are misrepresenting their facts -- whether you do it honestly or not.

In fact, your responses to me indicate exactly the type of attitude people get when you try to explain to them that what they believe to be true is not -- and they respond emotionally (attacking my religion and responding with comments that don't actually prove what you are trying to claim) and close themselves off from actually hearing what you are saying.

Could you please answer post #9??

 

[SimplyMe]

Could you please answer post #9??

I did quite a while ago, just in the original thread (which is now closed). I believe I may have added to my comment later, going into more detail, that Section 88 deals solely with what happens at the time of the resurrection, and has nothing to do with becoming "god" -- which Mormons don't believe they "automatically" attain with the resurrection but is something they have to work and progress toward.

 

[Rescued One]

When he was a young man, Lorenzo Snow was promised by the Lord through the Patriarch to the Church that through obedience to the gospel he could become as great as God, “and you cannot wish to be greater”(Eliza R. Snow, Biography and Family Record of Lorenzo Snow, pp. 9-10).

President Lorenzo Snow recorded this experience that occurred when he was still a young elder: “The Spirit of the Lord rested mightily upon me—the eyes of my understanding were opened, and I saw as clear as the sun shone at noon-day, with wonder and astonishment, the pathway of God and man.” Elder Snow expressed this new found understanding in these words: “As man now is, God once was: As God now is, man may be.” Later the Prophet Joseph Smith assured him: “Brother Snow, that is true gospel doctrine, and it is a revelation from God to you” (quoted by LeRoi C. Snow, in “Devotion to Divine Inspiration,” Improvement Era, June 1919, pp. 651-56).
Search These Commandments, Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, Copyright 1984, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, p. 151-152


"What evidence do we have that God does not jealously guard his position and power, but rather seeks to see that his children rise up to his position of glory, knowledge, and power that he has obtained (see Moses 1:39)?"
Ibid, p. 155

"Be careful in presenting this material that you don’t bring God down to man’s level. Our objective is to perfect ourselves and raise our level to his exalted place."
Ibid, p. 158

 

[SimplyMe]

I did NOT assign a comment to you. I stated what your comments imply.

God does the converting to Christ. People didn't bring me out of the LDS church. The Holy Spirit did.

I am NOT misrepresenting their facts --- neither honestly nor dishonestly. I am not here to read LDS minds to know what each individual Latter-day Saint believes. I am not here to state what they believe. I mainly present their teachings except when I quote LDS who deviate from official teachings.

People here (other than I) are questioning your religious affiliation (perhaps because you spend so much time attacking my posts).



I have no comment under these circumstances.

but that is just it, I spend little time attacking your posts. I took exception with one comment you made, of a whole string of comments; I tried to explain what the LDS Church actually teaches. I even had no issue with the remainder of your post and (unless I mis-remember) even stated as much. In response it seems you have made a number of posts, and I assume lots of time. Even more interestingly, at least to me, none of your other posts have really supported your claim (that Mormons can become equal to God) -- at least not without quote-mining the single verse out of D&C 88, and even then a single phrase from that verse.

I think what is amazing to me is that, with all I didn't disagree with and how that discredits Mormonism, I somehow must be a Mormon and not Christian and am defending Mormonism. Not sure how any of that makes sense.

 

[Rescued One]

I did quite a while ago, just in the original thread (which is now closed). I believe I may have added to my comment later, going into more detail, that Section 88 deals solely with what happens at the time of the resurrection, and has nothing to do with becoming "god" -- which Mormons don't believe they "automatically" attain with the resurrection but is something they have to work and progress toward.

Most Mormons won't meet the requirements to be exalted.

"3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."
Articles of Faith 1

 

[Rescued One]

...Even more interestingly, at least to me, none of your other posts have really supported your claim (that Mormons can become equal to God) -- at least not without quote-mining the single verse out of D&C 88, and even then a single phrase from that verse.

You are wrong. Mormon leaders disagree with you.


You aren't a Mormon --- I'll give you that. You need to learn what they teach and have taught in order to be able to discuss it accurately.

 

[SimplyMe]

Most Mormons won't meet the requirements to be exalted.

"3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."
Articles of Faith 1

Forgive me for not being precise in my post. I thought I'd made that clear in other posts I'd made and that you would understand it was inferred -- my apologies for not being clear enough for you. In fact, to take your comment a step further, from what I have read, not all Mormons who are exalted (go to the Celestial Kingdom) will necessarily become gods.

 

[SimplyMe]

You aren't a Mormon --- I'll give you that. You need to learn what they teach and have taught in order to be able to discuss it accurately.

Trust me, I know what they teach extremely well.