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Featured Re: the Revelation 12 "sign" in the sky

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Shempster, May 16, 2017.

  1. Dave Watchman

    Dave Watchman Well-Known Member

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    That's me too. Sometimes I see a bright star in the morning and wonder what it is. I'm not a star gazer.

    That's kind of like how it was the last time Jesus came. Only three guys could figure out the signs. Nothing's new under the sun.

    I am. I did. And I do. It just seems to confirm everything else. It confirms the solar and lunar eclipse from our 2015 tetrads. It confirms a 1290 day abomination. It slices out a third of a 1260 day time period. The Revelation sign alone wouldn't make any sense to me either. What would I do with it? It's remarkable, don't get me wrong, once in 7000 years. Some say it's the only time ever. They can't figure that part out.

    And I'm not that smart, I drive a truck. But I downloaded Stelarium only because I needed to know for sure the exact dates that Jupiter enters, and then exits the body of Virgo. And there's also a conjunction between Jupiter and Venus that the sign seems to be pointing to. I compare those dates by counting the days between two sets of solar and lunar eclipses. And it wasn't that much fun to figure Stelarium out. I had to download an older version because the current one wouldn't work with my computer. I still use windows XP.

    What I think will happen comes after the sign completes, the last seven weeks of the year. Right up until the final minutes of New Years Eve.

    I'm not in agreement with everything in this guy's video but he does a good job, beginning at around the 2 minute mark, of showing the 9 month retrograde motion of Jupiter in the body of Virgo.



    I tend to hope that we'll find out more about this as we get closer to it.

    We don't have much time to wait.
     
  2. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

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    John was in Revelation and he wasn't Jesus. The elder was a male, and he wasn't Jesus either. That kind of assumption isn't going to get one very far.

    Let's look at this male child. What are we told about him? He is born of a woman. The Dragon is waiting to devour him. He rules the nations with a rod of iron, and he is raptured (harpazo) to the throne of God as soon as he is born.

    First, who are we told rules with a rod of iron? We are told in Psalms 2 that Jesus will rule the nations with a rod of iron. So, Jesus is a part of this. We are also told in Revelation 2 that the Church will also rule the nations with a rod of iron. We now have two parties ruling with a rod of iron, Jesus and the Church.

    There are two words used to describe the ascent of Jesus in the scriptures, neither of them are 'harpazo', pertaining to a violent removal. Jesus ascended gradually, being watched by His followers. The only one of the two entities who rules with a rod of iron is described as departing as 'harpazo', and that's the Chruch (1 Then 4:17). The male child's departure is described as 'harpazo'.

    Jesus did not have the dragon waiting to devour Him when He was born and He didn't depart as soon as He was birthed. Herod's execution of the male children didn't take place until about two years after His birth.

    The male child turns out to be the gathering of the body of Christ onto one unit. We are told in numerous places that Jesus is the Head and the Church is the Body (Eph 5:23, Col 1:18, Col 2:29). The Head has already returned to the Throne, the Body (the Church) has not. When He comes back, He will receive us unto Himself, The head, and the Body members, both living and dead, will be together corporately for the first time as the single entity who we are told will rule with a rod of iron.

    This child isn't Jesus. It's Him being joined with His Church as one body. In three places we are told what John is seeing had still yet to take place (Rev 1:1, 1:19, and 22:6). There is no room to suddenly take this passage out of that framework and declare it to be a past event. Even if it were, it would be an inaccurate one.

    Jesus was not raptured at His departure.
    Jesus is not the only one described as ruling with a rod of iron.
    Jesus was not pursued by the dragon to devour Him right before His ascension.
    Jesus did not depart right after His birth either, but rather He grew and matured.
     
  3. NothingIsImpossible

    NothingIsImpossible Well-Known Member

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    Star alignments don't mean anything. And even the bible says no one will know the time or the date. All we have to go on is prophecies about what will come before hand.
     
  4. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    That doesn't work because God doesn't have "shortly".

    Otherwise we'd have God telling Adam in Genesis that Christ's coming "must Shortly take place"...

    Nothing is Shortly to God.

    He does not have near or far, short or long.

    Those are all Human time parameters.

    God doesn't have to wait "shortly" for anything.

    Notice also, We have God telling Daniel that Christ's advent was "far off" and "a long time" away.

    Then we have God telling John His parousia was "at hand" and "must shortly take place".

    It's 500 years from Daniel to Christ.
    2000 years from Christ to now.

    How is 500 years "far off" and "a long time" away to God but 2000 years is "at Hand" and "about to take place"?

    Such an interpretation renders those terms meaningless.
    I categorically reject that.
     
  5. harkaz

    harkaz New Member

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    I see your point. Well, there is also the prophecy of Jesus that the Gospel will be delivered to all nations - and then the end will come. This process was completed only recently with the World Wide Web.

    Probably Jesus wanted to encourage Christians to spread His Word, because the end comes for everyone at the moment of their death. Resurrection and Judgement come after death.
     
  6. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    If we are to believe scripture, that process was complete in the first century, no later than the mid 60's AD:

    Colossians 1:5-6 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth;

    Colossians 1:23
    if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

    Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

    Romans 16:25-26 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith;


    Men from every nation heard Peter preach the gospel (Acts 2:5,9-11,14); and Peter said it was published throughout Judaea (Acts 10:37, 1 Pet.4:6). Again, Paul says he fully preached the gospel (Romans 15:19), and it appeared to all men (Titus 2:11.), and it was preached and believed on in the world (1 Timothy 3:16). In Romans 10:18, the word "world" is oikumene, same as Mat.24:24, and the word "earth" is ge, same as Acts 1:8. In Romans 16:25-26, the word "nations" is ethnos, same as Mark 13:10. In Colossians 1:6, the word "world" is kosmos, same as Mark 16:15. In Colossians 1:23, the word "creature" is ktisis, same as Mark 16:15. Hebrews 4:2 says the gospel was preached.

    The argument has been raised: "The apostles were saying that the Gospel had been preached to the world as they knew it, but the Gospel has to reach the world as we know it before Christ will return."

    First, where does the Scripture speak of Christ's words being fulfilled during the twenty first century as we know it? This is the world's way of trying to make the Bible fit their view. Second, why would the apostles even mention the fact of the Gospel reaching its destination if there was no prophetic significance? All that would do is confuse those to whom they were writing. After all, their readers were perfectly aware that Christ had predicted His return once the Gospel had been preached in these areas. What other predictions were there besides those of the Lord? From the Scripture we can be certain that all these predictions regarding the destination of the Gospel were fulfilled.

    Many today say that the gospel has not been preached to all the world and Matthew 24:14 has not yet been fulfilled. In Contrast, The Bible says that all the nations of the world and every creature under heaven heard the gospel preached before AD 70.

    Who are you going to believe? To deny that Matthew 24:14 has was fulfilled in the 1st century when the divinely inspired apostles infallibly said it was, is to deny the clear statements of God's Holy Word; it is to call God a liar.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2017
  7. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The great and wonderous sign in heaven - The Birth of Jesus: Scripturally connected by Mt.24:30 and Rev.12:1-2


    The essential factor in interpreting the symbol of Revelation 12:1–5 is the identification of the woman. What is John signifying by mentioning her? This much is certain: the woman in the first three verses is featured as being in heaven and both the Sun and the Moon are in association with her. After the dragon casts down a third of the stars of heaven (Revelation 12:4), the woman is then found on earth (verses 6 and 14). But the important factor is the birth of the man-child and the Woman’s relationship with the heavenly signs while she is symbolically in heaven. (The first three verses of Revelation 12 shows the Sun clothing her, the Moon under her feet and the Twelve Stars on her head).

    The “birth” of the Messiah is associated with this heavenly spectacle. Since some noted heavenly bodies are a part of the picture, it could well be that John intended the woman to represent a constellation that the two primary luminaries transverse, and that she was a part of the zodiacal system which gives headship to the signs (the Twelve Stars were a “crown” upon her head). Recall that interpreting astronomical signs dominated the thinking of most people in the 1st century, whether the people were Jews or Gentiles. Indeed, the word “sign” used by the author of the Book of Revelation to describe this celestial display was the same one used by the ancients to denote the zodiacal constellations. 17

    This is made clearer when one looks closely at the text. Since the Sun and Moon are amidst or in line with the body of this woman, she could be, in a symbolic way, a constellation located within the normal paths of the Sun and Moon. The only sign of a woman which exists along the ecliptic (the track of the Sun in its journey through the stars) is that of Virgo the Virgin. She occupies, in body form, a space of about 50 degrees along the ecliptic. The head of the woman actually bridges some 10 degrees into the previous sign of Leo and her feet overlap about 10 degrees into the following sign of Libra, the Scales. In the period of Jesus’ birth, the Sun entered in its annual course through the heavens into the head position of the woman about August 13, and exited from her feet about October 2. But the apostle John saw the scene when the Sun was “clothing” or “adorning” the woman. This surely indicates that the position of the Sun in the vision was located somewhere mid-bodied to the woman, between the neck and the knees. The Sun could hardly be said to clothe her if it were situated in her face or near her feet.

    The Sun Clothed the Woman

    The only time in the year that the Sun could be in a position to “clothe” the celestial woman called Virgo (that is, to be mid-bodied to her, in the region where a pregnant woman carries a child) is when the Sun is located between about 150 and 170 degrees along the ecliptic. This “clothing” of the woman by the Sun occurs for a 20-day period each year. This 20 degree spread could indicate the general time when Jesus was born. In 3 B.C.E., the Sun would have entered this celestial region about August 27 and exited from it about September 15. If John in the Book of Revelation is associating the birth of Jesus with the period when the Sun was mid-bodied to this woman called Virgo (and this is no doubt what he means), then Jesus would have to be born within that 20-day period. From the point of view of the Magi who were astrologers, this would have been the only logical sign under which the Jewish Messiah might be born, especially if He was to be born of a virgin. Even today, astrologers recognize that the sign of Virgo is the one which has reference to a messianic world ruler to be born from a virgin. 18

    This heavenly woman called Virgo is normally depicted as a virgin holding in her right hand a green branch and in her left hand a sprig of grain. In the Hebrew Zodiac, she at first (in the time of David) denoted Ruth who was gleaning in the fields of Boaz. She then later became the Virgin when the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14 was given in the time of King Hezekiah and the prophet Isaiah. This Virgin held in her left hand a sprig of grain. This was precisely where the bright star called Spica is found. Indeed, the chief star of the constellation Virgo is Spica.

    Bullinger, in his book The Witness of the Stars (pp. 29–34), said that the word “Spica” has, through the Arabic, the meaning “the branch” and that it symbolically refers to Jesus who was prophetically called “the Branch” in Zechariah 3:8 and 6:12. And Bullinger (and Seiss in his book The Gospel in the Stars) maintains that this sign of Virgo designates the heavenly witness for the birth of the Messiah (Jesus). They say that Virgo should actually begin the zodiacal signs which give the story of the Messiah. This may be. The apostle John may have given the same indication as far as the first full sign of the zodiac is concerned. He depicted the woman of Revelation as having a crown of Twelve Stars on her head.

    This could well show that the woman (Virgo) is the constellation of headship for all the twelve signs. The “head” position of Virgo is located within the last ten degrees of Leo. It was in this very region where the story of the career of the Messiah would begin that Bullinger and Seiss referred to. Thus, the story of Jesus and his mission on earth, as related by these heavenly symbols, should logically begin with his birth from a virgin and conclude with him being crowned king in the final sign of Leo the Lion (with its chief star being Regulus ― the King star). This is no doubt what the apostle John was trying to show through the symbols found in Revelation 12.

    The birth of this child in Revelation 12 (whom John identified with Jesus) should have occurred while the Sun was “clothing” the woman, when the Sun was mid-bodied to Virgo. This period of time in 3 B.C.E. covered 20 days (August 27 to September 15). If Jesus were born within that 20-day period, it would fit most remarkably with the testimony of Luke (relative to the birth of John the Baptist and the eighth course of Abijah). Indeed, the chronological indications associated with the priestly course of Abijah place Jesus’ birth exactly within this period. But there is a way to arrive at a much closer time for Jesus’ birth than a simple 20-day period. The position of the Moon in John’s vision actually pinpoints the nativity to within a day ― even to within a period of an hour and a half (within 90 minutes) on that day. This may appear an absurd assessment on the surface, but it is quite possible.

    The key is the Moon. The apostle said it was located “under her feet.” What does the word “under” signify in this case? Does it mean the woman of the vision was standing on the Moon when John observed it or does it mean her feet were positioned slightly above the Moon? John does not tell us. This, however, is not of major consequence in using the location of the Moon to answer our question because it would only involve the difference of a degree or two. The Moon travels about 12 degrees a day in its course through the heavens. This motion of one or two degrees by the Moon represents on earth a period of only two to four hours. This difference is no problem in determining the time of Jesus’ birth. What is vital, however, is that this shows the Moon as a New Moon.

    The Precise Position of the Moon is Important

    Now note this point. Since the feet of Virgo the Virgin represent the last 7 degrees of the constellation (in the time of Jesus this would have been between about 180 and 187 degrees along the ecliptic), the Moon has to be positioned somewhere under that 7 degree arc to satisfy the description of Revelation 12. But the Moon also has to be in that exact location when the Sun is mid-bodied to Virgo. In the year 3 B.C.E., these two factors came to precise agreement for about an hour and a half, as observed from Palestine or Patmos, in the twilight period of September 11th The relationship began about 6:15 p.m. (sunset), and lasted until around 7:45 p.m. (moonset). This is the only day in the whole year that the astronomical phenomenon described in the twelfth chapter of Revelation could take place.

    This also shows one other important point. The Moon was in crescent phase. It was a New Moon day, the start of a new lunar month. (See plates one and two below which show early depictions of the celestial scene of Revelation 12:1–3 and how the Moon is shown to be in its crescent phase.)

    Modern Man and Astronomical Motions

    While ordinary people in modern times who are not professional astronomers have little knowledge of the solar, lunar, planetary and stellar motions, the people from the 1st century up to the Industrial Revolution were well accustomed to them. Even people of little education were generally knowledgeable of the main motions of the astronomical bodies — even more than most college-educated people today. When anyone of early times read Revelation 12:1–3, an astronomical relationship was realized at once. There was no doubt that a New Moon display was being shown to them. And when the woman of the sign was interpreted as Virgo the Virgin, and with the Sun mid-bodied to the Virgin, they clearly saw a New Moon day occurring sometime in late summer.

    The apostle John said this heavenly relationship occurred at the time of Jesus’ birth. And in 3 B.C.E. this exact combination of celestial factors happened just after sunset only on one day of the year. It was on September 11th. It could not have occurred at any other time of the year. Indeed, even one day before ― on September 10 ― the Moon would have been located above the Virgin’s feet with the crescent not visible, while one day farther ― on September 12 ― the Moon had moved too far beyond the feet of the Virgin, at least 25 diameters of the Moon east of her feet. Thus, only one day applies. That day was just after sunset on September 11th, 3 B.C.E.

    The Exact Day of Jesus’ Birth

    The apostle John is presenting to his readers something of profound significance in a symbolic way. Revelation 12:1–3 shows a New Moon day that could only be observed from earth just after sunset, and the day was September 11th. This fits well with Luke’s description of the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem. Recall that,
    “there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over the flock by night ... and the angel said ... unto you is born this day [which began at sundown] in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord.”

    Luke 2:8–11

    Jesus was born in early evening, and Revelation 12 shows it was a New Moon day.

    What New Moon could this have been? The answer is most amazing. It is almost too amazing! September 11, 3 B.C.E. was Tishri One on the Jewish calendar. To Jewish people this would have been a very profound occasion indeed. Tishri One is none other than the Jewish New Year’s day (Rosh ha-Shanah, or as the Bible calls it, The Day of Trumpets ― Leviticus 23:23–26). It was an important annual holy day of the Jews (but not one of the three annual festivals that required all Palestinian Jews to be in Jerusalem).

    What a significant day for the appearance of the Messiah to arrive on earth from the Jewish point of view! And remarkably, no other day of the year could astronomically fit Revelation 12:1–3. The apostle John is certainly showing forth an astronomical sign which answers precisely with the Jewish New Year Day. John would have realized the significance of this astronomical scene that he was describing.

    In the next chapter I will show the symbolic and religious meaning of this New Year’s day as interpreted by the Jews (and consequently by the apostles and early Christians) as it relates to the Messiah and his kingship. The information may provide a better understanding why the early apostles of the 1st century, and many Jews and Gentiles, so quickly came to accept Jesus as the Messiah.

    Whatever the case, the historical evidence supports the nativity of Jesus in 3 B.C.E., at the beginning of a Roman census, and (if we use the astronomical indications of the Book of Revelation) his birth would have occurred just after sundown on September 11th, on Rosh ha-Shanah, the Day of Trumpets — the Jewish New Year Day for governmental affairs. There could hardly have been a better day in the ecclesiastical calendar of the Jews to introduce the Messiah to the world from a Jewish point of view; and no doubt this is what the apostle John clearly intended to show by the sign he recorded in Revelation 12.

    By Ernest L. Martin, PhD.

    Edit: IMO, the twelve star crown the woman is wearing represents the twelve tribes of Israel, not the zodiacal signs.

    The Constellations she is in tell us exactly who she is: 80% in Virgo, the virgin, as Mary, who is pregnant andin pain, ready to give birth to Jesus. with her head 10% into the Constellation of Leo, the Lion of Judah, revealing which tribe Jesus came from, and 10% into the Constellation of Lybra, the scales of righteousness and justice, a clear representation of Jesus.


    Which is what Jesus was referring to in Mt.24:30, when He referred to the sign of the Son of Man appearing, at His second coming, in Setember of the year, at the time of the Autumnal Equinox. "Time, time and the dividing of time." Dan.7:25 KJV.

    Quasar92
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2017
  8. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    Hi Dave. I am curious . Where is it written that only three guys could figure out the signs?
     
  9. Root of Jesse

    Root of Jesse Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    Jesus was the child born of the woman. The End. Therefore, the woman of Rev 12 is Mary. The End.
     
  10. harkaz

    harkaz New Member

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    Even if we accept that the Gospel was preached to all nations as Paul says:
    Was Great Tribulation (tribulation that won't happen again in the future) an event of 1st century? Was Jewish-Roman war more severe than WWII?
     
  11. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

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    I see. Well if you are just declaring it so without evidence, then it must be true. :rolleyes:
     
  12. LutheranGuy123

    LutheranGuy123 Member

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    Isn't Revelations a vision, and therefore symbolic? Why do we assume that the bit about the sign being in the sky is literal?
     
  13. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Which we should, since Paul said it...
    Yes. Without question.
    For several reasons.

    Comparing scripture with scripture quickly demonstrates this usage of "ever shall be":

    Scripture tells us in 1 Kings 3:12that there was "no king like Solomon before or after him." Such statements are then repeated in 2 Kings 18:5-6 of Hezekiah and in 2 Kings 23:25 of Josiah. Obviously, they can't all be the greatest King there ever was nor ever shall be. (And, of course, Jesus Christ surpasses even Solomon -- Matt. 12:42). Furthermore, this same Old Testament idea of "never will be again" is employed of various judgments that have already been fulfilled such as locusts in Egypt (Ex. 10:12-15; cf. Joel 1:1-4), a cry in Egypt (Ex. 11:6), and judgment upon O.T. Israel (Ez. 5:9; Joel 2:2). The Ezekiel 5:9 passage is especially instructive to us, for it states that the Babylonian conquest of Israel (sixth-century BC) would be the greatest judgment God had ever brought upon a nation, past or future. Therefore, we recognize that the expression "ever was/nor ever shall be" is a common Hyperbolic Hebraic idiom.

    St. Luke's account of this great tribulation reads as follows:
    "These are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people." (Luke 21:22-23)
    Without question, Jesus promised his apostles that they would live to see Israel's great tribulation ("great distress in the land and wrath upon this people") and all those things come to pass in their generation (Matthew 24:33-34; Luke 21:31-32).

    Even so, AD 66-70 was the greatest Day-of-the-Lord event in Israel's history, and was, unquestionably, the one Christ's followers spoke of mere decades before it transpired. This was the same Day of the Lord concerning which the apostles stated they would remain alive unto its passing (1 Thess 5:2-4,23; Phil 1:6,10; Heb 10:25,36-39; 1 Cor 1:7-8; 1 Cor 5:5). Due to the covenantal significance of the event, that Day of the Lord's vengeance (cf. Luke 21:20-22; Isa 61:2; Jer 46:10) can never be repeated. There is no equal to the level of devastation millions of Messiah-rejecting Jews endured as they were violently excommunicated out of covenant with God (Matt 21:40-45; Acts 3:22-24).

    It seems to me that you equate the greatness of tribulation with body count. This notion can be easily refuted;

    Lets say 50 people are put to death in their sleep, not knowing it was coming, not feeling a thing, and 5 people are tortured for weeks, and put to a slow and painful death.

    By your standard, you'd have to say the 50 suffered greater tribulation than the 5, when in reality, the opposite would be true.

    Jewish Women in the seige of Jerusalem were so overwhelmed with tribulation that they killed, cooked and ate their own babies. (Just as Prophesied in Deuteronomy 28)

    I know of not one single woman, Jew or otherwise, who was documented to have killed, cooked and eaten her own baby because of the tribulation she suffered in WWII.

    I'm certainly no expert on suffering tribulation, but I'd have to say the Jewish woman of AD66-70 in Jerusalem suffered greater tribulation than the Jewish woman of the 1940's in Hitlers Germany.

    Of course I am by NO MEANS saying WWII victims didn't suffer terrible tribulation, but it apparantly wasn't bad enough to cause the murder and canibalism of ones offspring. In stark contrast, AD66-70 was.

    How bad do you suppose it would have to get before you could kill, cook and eat your own child?
    I can't even imagine.

    What is your next objection?

    Scripture has an answer to them all, and I'll be happy to show them to you every time.
     
  14. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    That the forthcoming Great Tribulation will be worse that any preceding event, is clear from the descriptions of the worldwide and cosmic disasters.
    Thinking that all these vividly and comprehensively prophesied events have already happened, or are just allegories, etc, constitutes a failure to see; firstly how prophesies about Jesus first Advent and the Jewish 70 year captivity in Babylon, etc, were accurately fulfilled and then to think our world will never experience such things, is a sheer 'head in the sand' attitude.

    God has given us all the information we need to know about what He plans for our future. To discount it is nothing short of the sin of ignoring His Word.
     
  15. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

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    Why do you assume everything in a vision has to be symbolic?
     
  16. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    First of all, there are two "wonderous" signs in Rev.12. The first one refers to a woman in the sky, who is pregnant in verses 1-2. The documentation pertains to literal events that take place in the heavenly bodies as described in my post #27. Where the woman represents Mary. The second wonder begins in verse 3 and pertains to the woman identified as Israel. The text of the second wonder, is literal prophecy yet to take place

    The first wonder, is the exact time of Jesus birth as told in the heavens and what He describes in Mt.24:30, as the "Sign of the Son of Man." This sign appears in the heavens once every year. Review #27 for the complete article.


    Quasar02
     
  17. harkaz

    harkaz New Member

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    World War II tribulation affected more people than the 66-70 AD Jewish War. Even if mothers did not eat their children, various other atrocities did take place on a much larger scale. Great tribulation prophecy is not about Israel in specific or those that call themselves "Jews", but the entire world. I am not saying that WWII IS the great tribulation because a nuclear war could come in the future.

    But let's accept that it is scriptural hyperboly. When did the Judgement of the World (not "Israel") take place? Have the dead been resurrected? Or are these metaphorical as well?
     
  18. harkaz

    harkaz New Member

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    12 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born.

    Let' s see what we have here:
    12:1 The birth of a male child
    12:2 Birthpangs
    12:3 Dragon with 7 crowns
    12:4 1/3 of the stars swept by the Dragon

    12:1 Seems too easy. It's the birth of Jesus!! Let's continue reading...
    12:2 Birthpangs. Scripture tells us it is about shock, distress. Was Israel under distress during the birth of Christ?
    12:3 Satan is ready to eat the male child. He has 7 crowns. Why? To distinguish him from the Beast of Rev 13, which has 10 crowns. But where have these crowns gone in Rev 17, when we are shown the Scarlet Beast? Just who is the Scarlet Beast? Is it a universal "code" used to interpret the creatures of Rev 12 and 13? Yes, that what's Rev 17 is about. So, 7 crowns on the heads are 7 kings of the Great Harlot in Rev 17. Without knowing who the Harlot was, we know by simply reading Rev 17 that 6 kings had reigned at the time of John/Jesus. But 7 crowns are shown in Rev 12. Inconsistency! Unless 12:1 is not about the birth of Jesus.

    In 2017, the spiritual harlot of Judaism in Jerusalem has rided on the heads of 7 kingdoms. The Rev 12:1 happens every ~5000 years. The 7th king will appear only once in history. Two time references! Combined, they specify a SINGLE date in history.

    Saturday, September 23, 2017

    No need to wait another 5000 years for the fulfillment of this sign!
     
  19. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Not in terms of covenant.

    Can you demonstrate from scripture your view that the "Greatness of Tribulation" is to be measured by number of people affected?

    Chapter and verse you believe teaches this?

    Again, point me to the scripture you believe supports this supposition so I can address it directly, and I'll be happy to.


    The bible uses the term "resurrection" of national restorations, personal salvation/baptism, the transfer of departed souls in the O.T. Hades into God's heaven, and the final state of all things.

    Which Resurrection are you referring to?
    The Resurrection of the OT dead from Hades into God's Heaven already happened, yes.
     
  20. harkaz

    harkaz New Member

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    Matthew 6:24
    6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.
    7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.
    8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

    This seems a bit more generalized than a war with Judea in 66-70 AD.
    I'm talking about the Second Resurrection of Revelation or the resurrection of the dead mentioned in Daniel 12: ("At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time; but at that time your people shall be delivered, every one whose name shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.")
     
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