Re: John 3:16 - is it important what the average Joe understands by 'world'?

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Hammster

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Great question! I've not seen any answer forthcoming. Maybe we'll see one in this thread, since that other thread was closed.

Thanks for bringing it up again. It needs to be addressed.

It was.
 
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janxharris

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That's nice eisegesis. But I'm sticking with what the verse says.

Even so, what I described as the interior is what Calvinism avers and should be explained to unbelievers so that they can be disabused of any notions of an offer and ability to accept.

And I will reiterate. Whoever looks at the Son will be saved. This in no way changes what I believe.

The poster was asked a direct question and did not give an answer. This is telling. I'll ask again:

The poster ignored the point I made: the comparison only relates to the time when the snake is lifted up. So, I ask the poster directly: to what event does John compare Jesus' crucifixion to:
A) The time during which the bronze snake was lifted up?
B) The time before this event?
C) Other (if so, what?)
 
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Hammster

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Even so, what I described as the interior is what Calvinism avers and should be explained to unbelievers so that they can be disabused of any notions of an offer and ability to accept.



The poster was asked a direct question and did not give an answer. This is telling. I'll ask again:

The poster ignored the point I made: the comparison only relates to the time when the snake is lifted up. So, I ask the poster directly: to what event does John compare Jesus' crucifixion to:
A) The time during which the bronze snake was lifted up?
B) The time before this event?
C) Other (if so, what?)

It's funny, but Calvinists are often accused of reading election into the verse. "Calvinists change 'world' into 'elect'" is a common accusation. It's one that you seem to be making.

I am saying that I don't do that, yet you continue to argue as if I am.

The bronze serpent? Those who looked at it would live. Christ? Those who look to Him will live.

I'm not sure what else you want.
 
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janxharris

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It's funny, but Calvinists are often accused of reading election into the verse. "Calvinists change 'world' into 'elect'" is a common accusation. It's one that you seem to be making.

I am saying that I don't do that, yet you continue to argue as if I am.

Perhaps you will explain your position?

The bronze serpent? Those who looked at it would live. Christ? Those who look to Him will live.

I'm not sure what else you want.

This is the 3rd time you have not answered the question I asked. When you responded to my post about the link between John 3:14 and Numbers 21:8-9 you said:

What happened to those who were bit before Moses put the serpent on the pole?
(http://www.christianforums.com/t7796376-4/#post64794037)

You were obviously trying to suggesting that since life was not offered to all regarding the bronze snake, then it follows that the same is the case with Jesus' crucifixion. Now I am going to ask you a 4th time:

The poster ignored the point I made: the comparison only relates to the time when the snake is lifted up. So, I ask the poster directly: to what event does John (sorry, I should have said Jesus) compare his crucifixion to:
A) The time during which the bronze snake was lifted up?
B) The time before this event?
C) Other (if so, what?)
 
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Hammster

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Perhaps you will explain your position?
I have. Believers will be saved.
This is the 3rd time you have not answered the question I asked. When you responded to my post about the link between John 3:14 and Numbers 21:8-9 you said:

What happened to those who were bit before Moses put the serpent on the pole?
(http://www.christianforums.com/t7796376-4/#post64794037)

You were obviously trying to suggesting that since life was not offered to all regarding the bronze snake, then it follows that the same is the case with Jesus' crucifixion.
That's not what I was suggesting.
Now I am going to ask you a 4th time:

The poster ignored the point I made: the comparison only relates to the time when the snake is lifted up. So, I ask the poster directly: to what event does John (sorry, I should have said Jesus) compare his crucifixion to:
A) The time during which the bronze snake was lifted up?
B) The time before this event?
C) Other (if so, what?)

Jesus said that He must be crucified so that everyone who believes in Him can have eternal life. In the same manner, the serpent was lifted up so that whoever looked upon it would live.

So, if you believe that looking at the serpent would save you, you would be saved. If you believe in the Son, you will be saved.

But I think I've said that already.
 
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janxharris

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That's not what I was suggesting.

janx: The 'Just as' cannot be ignored; nobody was withheld from doing that which saved their life after being bitten by a snake and the same is true with the eternal life that is offered to all men.

Hammster: What happened to those who were bit before Moses put the serpent on the pole?

janx: They died. The 'just as' refers to the moment when the snake was lifted up, not before.

Hammster: So it's not universal. Thanks.

Your meaning is clear from these exchanges. If I am wrong then shouldn't you explain?

Jesus said that He must be crucified so that everyone who believes in Him can have eternal life. In the same manner, the serpent was lifted up so that whoever looked upon it would live.

So, if you believe that looking at the serpent would save you, you would be saved. If you believe in the Son, you will be saved.

But I think I've said that already.

The poster's 4th time of not answering the question is noted.
 
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AndOne

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janx: The 'Just as' cannot be ignored; nobody was withheld from doing that which saved their life after being bitten by a snake and the same is true with the eternal life that is offered to all men.

Hammster: What happened to those who were bit before Moses put the serpent on the pole?

janx: They died. The 'just as' refers to the moment when the snake was lifted up, not before.

Hammster: So it's not universal. Thanks.

Your meaning is clear from these exchanges. If I am wrong then shouldn't you explain?



The poster's 4th time of not answering the question is noted.

Just because he doesn't answer to someone's specific expectations doesn't mean he didn't answer...
 
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Hammster

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Yes, you have done that, but you have not answered my specific question. That is significant.
Then your question must not be relative to the text we are discussing.
 
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pshun2404

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It's funny, but Calvinists are often accused of reading election into the verse. "Calvinists change 'world' into 'elect'" is a common accusation. It's one that you seem to be making.

I am saying that I don't do that, yet you continue to argue as if I am.

The bronze serpent? Those who looked at it would live. Christ? Those who look to Him will live.

I'm not sure what else you want.

Janx just said that any can look to Him and be saved and not only those created to look to Him...as opposed to those not created to look to Him (post-Dordt Reformed) or created not to look to Him (Calvinism).

Paul
 
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pshun2404

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Free you said "3 words translated "elect" as verb and adjective, and "election" as a noun. eklektos (adjective), eklegomai (verb), and ekloge (noun).

Can you find any verse that uses any of these 3 words in the sense of being chosen for salvation
?

Really good point I never really noticed before so thanks, but in all fairness Hamm didn't literally mention "election" (though contrary to Hamm's view that is indeed how Calvin and most Reformed people interpret this verse...who ever believes are assumed to be those God created to believe and these in their view are the elect...not saying thats Hamm's view and it is certainly NOT what the verse says)

In His love

Paul
 
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Hammster

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Janx just said that any can look to Him and be saved and not only those created to look to Him...as opposed to those not created to look to Him (post-Dordt Reformed) or created not to look to Him (Calvinism).

Paul

I have no idea what that has to do with what I've said about this verse.
 
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Hammster

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In what way is it not relative?

I have no idea. All I know is that I've addressed the verses more than once. If you don't want to deal with that, then okay.
 
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Hammster

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Free you said "3 words translated "elect" as verb and adjective, and "election" as a noun. eklektos (adjective), eklegomai (verb), and ekloge (noun).

Can you find any verse that uses any of these 3 words in the sense of being chosen for salvation
?

Really good point I never really noticed before so thanks, but in all fairness Hamm didn't literally mention "election" (though contrary to Hamm's view that is indeed how Calvin and most Reformed people interpret this verse...who ever believes are assumed to be those God created to believe and these in their view are the elect...not saying thats Hamm's view and it is certainly NOT what the verse says)

In His love

Paul

In all fairness, this verse doesn't talk if election. Can I say that those who believe are elect? Yes. But that doesn't mean that this verse talks if election. Janx is the one that insinuated that I use this verse to prove election.
 
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janxharris

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I have no idea. All I know is that I've addressed the verses more than once. If you don't want to deal with that, then okay.

My question was specific and the poster has not responded:
The poster ignored the point I made: the comparison only relates to the time when the snake is lifted up. So, I ask the poster directly: to what event does Jesus compare his crucifixion to:
A) The time during which the bronze snake was lifted up?
B) The time before this event?
C) Other?​
 
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Hammster

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My question was specific and the poster has not responded:
The poster ignored the point I made: the comparison only relates to the time when the snake is lifted up. So, I ask the poster directly: to what event does Jesus compare his crucifixion to:
A) The time during which the bronze snake was lifted up?
B) The time before this event?
C) Other?​

And I've addressed the question. You are now goading.
 
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