Re: John 3:16 - is it important what the average Joe understands by 'world'?

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Hammster

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Let's not forget that Christ shed his blood for the likes of Judas Iscariot:

Luke 22:19-21
And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table.

Completely irrelevant to what John 3:16 says.
 
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janxharris

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Completely irrelevant to what John 3:16 says.

On the contrary, 'God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son...'. The word 'gave' is defined in the previous two verses.

Explain, please, why it is irrelevant?
 
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janxharris

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The truth? Okay.

Indeed, this is what is expected of all christians - that they tell the truth.

So now the unbeliever is disabused of his initial impression that 'whomsoever' means 'anyone', but rather just the ones God elected. Pretty shocking.
 
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janxharris

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And you believe that He does? That's universalism.

And I am not a universalist.

it doesn't in most of John's writings, either.

Nothing in this Chapter would suggest it means the 'elect'. As you know, 'world' never explicitly means 'elect'.

It just means that whoever believes is saved

Fine. We don't need to drop any bombshells about God choosing who would believe then? We don't need to tell the crowd that salvation is not necessarily available to some. 'Whomsoever' certainly implies capability.

Or, it's world away from your presuppositions.

No presupposition. The plain meaning of the words and the entire verse is crystal clear.

What happened to those who were bit before Moses put the serpent on the pole?

They died. The 'just as' refers to the moment when the snake was lifted up, not before.

It seems you have a problem with the transparent clarity of the comparison: the offer of eternal life by believing in Christ is just as the offer of life by looking at the snake.

The meaning is incontrovertible.
 
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Hammster

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On the contrary, 'God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son...'. The word 'gave' is defined in the previous two verses.

Explain, please, why it is irrelevant?

There's nothing about the atonement in John 3:16.
 
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Hammster

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Indeed, this is what is expected of all christians - that they tell the truth.

So now the unbeliever is disabused of his initial impression that 'whomsoever' means 'anyone', but rather just the ones God elected. Pretty shocking.

Why do you find the truth so shocking?
 
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Hammster

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And I am not a universalist.
I'm sure you're not. But you keep using universalist arguments.

Nothing in this Chapter would suggest it means the 'elect'. As you know, 'world' never explicitly means 'elect'.
I never said it did.
Fine. We don't need to drop any bombshells about God choosing who would believe then? We don't need to tell the crowd that salvation is not necessarily available to some. 'Whomsoever' certainly implies capability.
Whoever believes just means whoever believes. It's not a difficult concept.
No presupposition. The plain meaning of the words and the entire verse is crystal clear.
Except that's not what the author intended.

They died. The 'just as' refers to the moment when the snake was lifted up, not before.
So it's not universal. Thanks.
It seems you have a problem with the transparent clarity of the comparison: the offer of eternal life by believing in Christ is just as the offer of life by looking at the snake.

The meaning is incontrovertible.

I agree with that. I'm not sure why you think I have a problem.
 
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janxharris

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Why do you find the truth so shocking?

The initial impression is that anyone can believe, but now you tell him that only members of an elect group will believe. Nothing about foreknown faith or otherwise is in consideration.
 
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janxharris

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So it's not universal. Thanks.

The poster ignored the point I made: the comparison only relates to the time when the snake is lifted up.

I ask the poster directly: to what event does John compare Jesus' crucifixion to?

A) The time during which the bronze snake was lifted up?
B) The time before this event?


I agree with that. I'm not sure why you think I have a problem.

Then you agree that nobody is denied.
 
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The initial impression is that anyone can believe, but now you tell him that only members of an elect group will believe. Nothing about foreknown faith or otherwise is in consideration.

You seem to be thinking I have a view of this verse that I don't hold. I see it as an if/then statement. If you believe, you will be saved. That's it.
 
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janxharris

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You seem to be thinking I have a view of this verse that I don't hold. I see it as an if/then statement. If you believe, you will be saved. That's it.

Except that Jesus compares his crucifixion to the offer of life to those who look to the snake that was lifted up. It is an offer that anyone can take up...if they believe. This does not fit your theology.
 
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Hammster

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Except that Jesus compares his crucifixion to the offer of life to those who look to the snake that was lifted up. It is an offer that anyone can take up...if they believe. This does not fit your theology.

I believe that those who look to the Son will be saved. Why do you think that I don't?
 
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janxharris

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I believe that those who look to the Son will be saved. Why do you think that I don't?

That is the exterior; the interior is a little different:

Me: Actually no, you believe God elects that certain individuals will believe. Make sure you tell the unbeliever this.

You: The truth? Okay.

None of which equates to an offer. But Jesus equates it as 'Just as Moses lifted up the snake.'
 
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Hammster

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That is the exterior; the interior is a little different:

Me: Actually no, you believe God elects that certain individuals will believe. Make sure you tell the unbeliever this.

You: The truth? Okay.

None of which equates to an offer. But Jesus equates it as 'Just as Moses lifted up the snake.'

That has nothing to do with what I said, or the verse. Whoever looks to the Son will be saved. There's nothing about election in that verse. It's not one I'd use to defend election.
 
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janxharris

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That has nothing to do with what I said, or the verse. Whoever looks to the Son will be saved. There's nothing about election in that verse. It's not one I'd use to defend election.

?

You assert that it is an if/then statement: If you believe then you will be saved.

That is the exterior.

The interior is: If God decided to elect you (and not because He foresaw you would be less evil and choose to believe) then and only then would He regenerate you so that belief was irresistible. Thus, it is not an offer implying ability, rather it is a statement that reveals that which has already taking place in God's eternal decree. Essentially, you are either in, or you are out. If you are out then the only outcome is eternal doom.

The exterior and interior are quite different.

This was posted previously:

The poster ignored the point I made: the comparison only relates to the time when the snake is lifted up. So, I ask the poster directly: to what event does John compare Jesus' crucifixion to:
A) The time during which the bronze snake was lifted up?
B) The time before this event?
Perhaps I should also add:
C) Other (and, if so, what?)


(It was a response to your: What happened to those who were bit before Moses put the serpent on the pole?)
 
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FreeGrace2

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That has nothing to do with what I said, or the verse. Whoever looks to the Son will be saved. There's nothing about election in that verse. It's not one I'd use to defend election.
Since you brought up election, what verse do you use to defend the RT view that election is unto salvation?

Keep in mind that there are 3 words translated "elect" as verb and adjective, and "election" as a noun.
eklektos (adjective), eklegomai (verb), and ekloge (noun).

Can you find any verse that uses any of these 3 words in the sense of being chosen for salvation?
 
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FreeGrace2

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You assert that it is an if/then statement: If you believe then you will be saved.

That is the exterior.

The interior is: If God decided to elect you (and not because He foresaw you would be less evil and choose to believe) then and only then would He regenerate you so that belief was irresistible. Thus, it is not an offer implying ability, rather it is a statement that reveals that which has already taking place in God's eternal decree. Essentially, you are either in, or you are out. If you are out then the only outcome is eternal doom.

The exterior and interior are quite different.

This was posted previously:

The poster ignored the point I made: the comparison only relates to the time when the snake is lifted up. So, I ask the poster directly: to what event does John compare Jesus' crucifixion to:
A) The time during which the bronze snake was lifted up?
B) The time before this event?​

(It was a response to your: What happened to those who were bit before Moses put the serpent on the pole?)
Great question! I've not seen any answer forthcoming. Maybe we'll see one in this thread, since that other thread was closed.

Thanks for bringing it up again. It needs to be addressed.
 
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Hammster

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You assert that it is an if/then statement: If you believe then you will be saved.

That is the exterior.

The interior is: If God decided to elect you (and not because He foresaw you would be less evil and choose to believe) then and only then would He regenerate you so that belief was irresistible. Thus, it is not an offer implying ability, rather it is a statement that reveals that which has already taking place in God's eternal decree. Essentially, you are either in, or you are out. If you are out then the only outcome is eternal doom.

The exterior and interior are quite different.
That's nice eisegesis. But I'm sticking with what the verse says.
This was posted previously:

The poster ignored the point I made: the comparison only relates to the time when the snake is lifted up. So, I ask the poster directly: to what event does John compare Jesus' crucifixion to:
A) The time during which the bronze snake was lifted up?
B) The time before this event?
Perhaps I should also add:
C) Other (and, if so, what?)
And I will reiterate. Whoever looks at the Son will be saved. This in no way changes what I believe.

(It was a response to your: What happened to those who were bit before Moses put the serpent on the pole?)
Okay.
 
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Hammster

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Since you brought up election, what verse do you use to defend the RT view that election is unto salvation?

Keep in mind that there are 3 words translated "elect" as verb and adjective, and "election" as a noun.
eklektos (adjective), eklegomai (verb), and ekloge (noun).

Can you find any verse that uses any of these 3 words in the sense of being chosen for salvation?

I didn't bring up election. In fact, that was my point.
 
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