• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Re: John 3:16 - is it important what the average Joe understands by 'world'?

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by janxharris, Jan 3, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. janxharris

    janxharris Veteran

    +48
    United Kingdom
    Married
    Probably because that is what would be assumed by those preached to but also because of the immediate context:

    John 3:14
    Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”

    Numbers 21:8-9
    The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2014
  2. janxharris

    janxharris Veteran

    +48
    United Kingdom
    Married
    Well, you are not suggesting the monergist preacher could just state John 3:16 and walk off are you?
     
  3. janxharris

    janxharris Veteran

    +48
    United Kingdom
    Married
    http://www.christianforums.com/t7794118-8/#post64729263

    (Just in case) :)
     
  4. Kings servant

    Kings servant GOD'S WARRIOR.

    119
    +8
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution

    Maybe I did.
     
  5. Hammster

    Hammster Who has believed our report? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +14,379
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Maybe you did what?
     
  6. Hammster

    Hammster Who has believed our report? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +14,379
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    So that's how you study scripture? You just use what's assumed by those preached to?
     
  7. Hammster

    Hammster Who has believed our report? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +14,379
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    You have a point. A monergist preacher would actually explain the text and not let the hearers just assume incorrect meanings.
     
  8. janxharris

    janxharris Veteran

    +48
    United Kingdom
    Married
    Most would take a straightforward understanding of the words in question, and their legitimate assumptions would be correct.

    I would be interested to hear how you would explain such a verse to an unbeliever. As far as I can see, you would have to qualify 'love', 'world' and 'whomsoever'.

    Pretty daunting I would say, but please do have a go.
     
  9. janxharris

    janxharris Veteran

    +48
    United Kingdom
    Married
    John 3:16 is clear in its meaning but poles apart from TULIP.
     
  10. janxharris

    janxharris Veteran

    +48
    United Kingdom
    Married
    Also 'gave' might need some explaining too...apparently Christ died so that the reprobate might continue to experience the sun and the rain and the gospel preached throughout the world...

    That is a lot of explaining.
     
  11. bottomofsandal

    bottomofsandal Well-Known Member

    +257
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    I see what you are saying. I think...

    Skala is stressing the intent of John, more precisely The Holy Ghost.

    OTOH, you are wondering about the hearer's perspective.



    Words like world, love, etc would need to be qualified and expounded upon, or possibly even minimalized if necessary to depict and describe the desired position. A man would hear love and world with a predisposition to what those words convey. The man would need to be taught what the ramifications are for world definition #1, definition #2, or #10.



    Words have there own unique weight in a given environment when they are employed by a certain culture or class of individuals. Restaurant kitchens use words/terms in a certain way that mainstream society does not. Retail has a specific phraseology that does not function in society. Tech has all kinds of esoteric words used that many do not comprehend. Doctors have their own language (latin) that they universally communicate with in discussion. The Bible has it's own Spirit language. It must be taught to the unbeliever. He is absolutely clueless as to what The Bible is talking about. The Holy Spirit will teach as Jesus said.
     
  12. Hammster

    Hammster Who has believed our report? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +14,379
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Why is it daunting to explain? You just do it. I think Skala gave a pretty good explanation, though.
     
  13. Hammster

    Hammster Who has believed our report? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +14,379
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Non sequitur.
     
  14. janxharris

    janxharris Veteran

    +48
    United Kingdom
    Married
    After the Calvinist has explained John 3:16 to the unbeliever then I can't see that much of it would survive:

    God does not love all men unto salvation.
    'World' does not mean every person.
    'Whomsoever' does not mean that anyone can, but rather those that God chose (and IRRESPECTIVE of any foreknowledge that they would believe).

    This is a world away from the plain meaning of John 3:16 which has for its immediate context:

    John 3:14
    Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”

    Numbers 21:8-9
    The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.

    The 'Just as' cannot be ignored; nobody was withheld from doing that which saved their life after being bitten by a snake and the same is true with the eternal life that is offered to all men.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2014
  15. Hammster

    Hammster Who has believed our report? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +14,379
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    So you actually believe that God loves every man unto salvation? That's universalism. I believe that only those who believe get eternal life. That's what the verse says.
     
  16. janxharris

    janxharris Veteran

    +48
    United Kingdom
    Married
    You know I am not a universalist.
    Perhaps you might deal with the entirety of my post?
     
  17. janxharris

    janxharris Veteran

    +48
    United Kingdom
    Married
    Actually no, you believe God elects that certain individuals will believe. Make sure you tell the unbeliever this.
     
  18. janxharris

    janxharris Veteran

    +48
    United Kingdom
    Married
    Let's not forget that Christ shed his blood for the likes of Judas Iscariot:

    Luke 22:19-21
    And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table.
     
  19. Hammster

    Hammster Who has believed our report? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +14,379
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    And you believe that He does? That's universalism.
    it doesn't in most of John's writings, either.
    It just means that whoever believes is saved
    Or, it's world away from your presuppositions.
    What happened to those who were bit before Moses put the serpent on the pole?
     
  20. Hammster

    Hammster Who has believed our report? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +14,379
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    The truth? Okay.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...