Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists

[Dave L]

I did not say He is - nor did Daniel. You assumed that.
There IS a gap and Daniel wrote it so. Verse 26 IS A GAP. It tells of events BETWEEN the 69 weeks and the 70th week.

Of course you won't believe it until you actually SEE it begin to take place - and you may be so confused then you can't believe what you see. My question is: when Jesus comes pretrib FOR His saints, are you going to be expecting Him.

You are reading in a gap to fit your needs. But if a gap exists, it is no longer 70 weeks. It is 70+ weeks.

 

[Dave L]

Now, the problem with not holding to a Pre-Trib Rapture or not holding to a Rapture of any kind (With a reliance upon just a Second Coming or some other idea) is that Jesus relates a person to someone who thinks the Lord is coming later (rather than at any moment) with that of an evil servant.

"If that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;" ~(Matthew 24:48-49)

So if you are against the Pre-Trib Rapture, then the Lord is not coming now or at any moment but He is delaying His coming to a time you think it says or worse yet, He is not coming at all.

For Matthew continues to say,

"The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder" ~ (Matthew 24:50-51a)

In other words, this passage is saying that the Lord will come in a day or hour when you will not looking for Him. For the moment you ignore His return that could happen at any moment or if you pinpoint a certain period of time of His return and look for Him in that time frame is a direct violation of this verse and others that warn us to be ready at any moment.

In fact, Jesus Christ warned us that if a church does not repent of it's wickedness, it will go thru the great tribulation...

"And unto... the church in Thyatira... And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds." ~ (Revelation 2:18, 21-22)

How else would an entire church miss out on the great tribulation if they are not Raptured? Will God kill them instead?

Paul had written to Titus and said this to him in his letter...

• Titus 2:13

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

To put it to you another way, Paul believed in looking for the imminent return of His Savior Jesus Christ. If Paul believed he would have had to go thru the tribulation, he would not have said this.

Also, Paul used the words "Last Trump" in Corinthians as a reference to the Jewish "Last Trumpet" of the Feast of Trumpets. The Corinthians at that time would have had no knowledge of John's written Revelation about the Last Trumpet Judgment because it was not written yet. So Paul mentioned a name to something that the Corinthians would have already been familiar with.

Many think God’s restoration of Israel happens 7 years after the rapture in a 1000 year long millennium. But this has several difficulties. One, nobody but the Father knows the time for Israel’s restoration.

“When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.” (Acts 1:6–7)

 

[Dave L]

What is another bread crumb or clue that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is true? Well, when we want to verify a truth within God's Word, we know that the Bible testifies of itself by the fact that it repeats the same message or idea over and over thru out the whole of Scripture.

So one came make the parallel that...

1. The Church is sent out to spread the Gospel (Revelation 1)
2. Some in the Church are warned of His Return & Judgment (Revelation 2-3)
3. Rapture of Faithful Church (Revelation 4)
4. Judgment of Daniel's 70th Week Begins that will bring the End (Revelation 6)

In fact, the same parallel can be made with Noah and the Flood, too.

For there were 3 groups of people facing the Judgment of the Flood:

1. Those that perished in the Global Flood.
2. Those that were preserved thru the time of the Global Flood.
3. Those that were removed prior to the Global Flood.

For Enoch was translated before the Flood, right?
And Noah and his family went thru the Judgment of the Flood but were protected by God, right? Sort of like the 144,000 Jewish Christians who will be protected or sealed by God thru the tribulation.

So a Pre-Trib Rapture proves to be Biblical and true not only in straight forward teaching but by paralleling the beginning and ending stories within the Bible, too.

Many think God’s restoration of Israel happens 7 years after the rapture in a 1000 year long millennium. But this has several difficulties. One, nobody but the Father knows the time for Israel’s restoration.

“When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.” (Acts 1:6–7)

 

[Dave L]

There are some interesting things to notice that are different about the Rapture (i.e. The Appearing) and the Second Coming.

At the rapture, only those who are looking for him will see him:

• Hebrews 9:28 ESV

So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Now contrast that with the second coming to the earth:

• Revelation 1:7

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

At the rapture, Jesus comes FOR His church :

• 1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

• John 14:3

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

However, at the second coming (after the tribulation period) , Christ comes WITH His saints:

• Jude 1:14

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints.

• Revelation 19:14

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

At the rapture, the LORD calls His church up to a wedding/marriage:

• Matthew 25:10

And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

But at the second coming to earth, He is returning from a wedding:

• Luke 12:36

And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

Many think God’s restoration of Israel happens 7 years after the rapture in a 1000 year long millennium. But this has several difficulties. One, nobody but the Father knows the time for Israel’s restoration.

“When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.” (Acts 1:6–7)

 

[BABerean2]

Sorry, again you knowingly misrepresent the truth. You know full well what covenant I believe in. Have you no fear in knowingly misrepresenting the truth to lead others astray?The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

Are you saying that all of the Old Testament promises are fulfilled by the New Covenant, through Christ's blood at Calvary? (Matthew 26:28, Galatians 3:16)

Anything else is a form of Dual-Covenant Theology.

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[Douggg]

Are you saying that all of the Old Testament promises are fulfilled by the New Covenant, through Christ's blood at Calvary? (Matthew 26:28, Galatians 3:16)

Anything else is a form of Dual-Covenant Theology.

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The issue is the fulfillment of the 70 weeks by which Jerusalem and Daniel's people Israel receive
"...salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ:..." Revelation 12:10.

When you signed onto the church has become Israel, you closed the bible and put a padlock on it. That's the problem, BaB2. I just got through making the same comment on a You Tube video. I am not just picking on you.

 

[Douggg]

Many think God’s restoration of Israel happens 7 years after the rapture in a 1000 year long millennium. But this has several difficulties. One, nobody but the Father knows the time for Israel’s restoration.

Dave do a copy and paste of that verse(s) in Acts from the bible translation you are using. I want to see what you are reading and basing your comment(s) on.

 

[Dave L]

Dave do a copy and paste of that verse(s) in Acts from the bible translation you are using. I want to see what you are reading and basing your comment(s) on.

That was from the NET. Here it is in KJV
“When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.” (Acts 1:6–7)

 

[Douggg]

That was from the NET. Here it is in KJV
“For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” (Acts 2:15–21)

No, Dave, I was talking about the passage in Acts about the restroration of Israel.

In the KJV, the verses read like this...

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

It is not talking about restoring Israel (in non-specific terms), but about restoring the kingdom to Israel. Which, the disciples were really asking Jesus if he was about to take over as the King of Israel, to sit on David's throne, and rule the nation.

 

[BABerean2]

The issue is the fulfillment of the 70 weeks by which Jerusalem and Daniel's people Israel receive
"...salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ:..." Revelation 12:10.

When you signed onto the church has become Israel, you closed the bible and put a padlock on it. That's the problem, BaB2. I just got through making the same comment on a You Tube video. I am not just picking on you.

If the New Covenant was promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and Christ fulfilled the New Covenant in His blood at Calvary, how can you deny Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and the New Covenant being specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8?


It is a simple exercise in logic, that must be ignored to make your doctrine work.

It is a denial of Matthew 26:28, and Galatians 3:16, and James 1:1-3.

If the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ is not the fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:31-34, then what is it? Have you cut Hebrews 10:16-18 out of your Bible?

The New Covenant: Bob George

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[Dave L]

No, Dave, I was talking about the passage in Acts about the restroration of Israel.

In the KJV, the verses read like this...

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

It is not talking about restoring Israel, but about restoring the kingdom to Israel. Which, the disciples were really asking Jesus if he was about to take over as the King of Israel, to sit on David's throne, and rule the nation.

Peter says Jesus is on David's Throne in heavenly Jerusalem now.
“Therefore [David] being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.” (Acts 2:30–31)

 

[Douggg]

It is a simple exercise in logic, that must be ignored to make your doctrine work.

The logic you are using - that the church has become Israel - needs to be discarded, because it closes the bible and puts a padlock on it.

The prophecies in the bible don't need my help to work.

 

[Dave L]

The logic you are using - that the church has become Israel - needs to be discarded, because it closes the bible and puts a padlock on it.

The prophecies in the bible don't need my help to work.

Read Romans 11 carefully and notice, the only way the broken off from Israel are reattached is through faith in Christ. That should settle it. If not I have some other proofs.

 

[Douggg]

Peter says Jesus is on David's Throne in heavenly Jerusalem now.
“Therefore [David] being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.” (Acts 2:30–31)

Jesus has been raised up from the grave to sit on David's throne when He returns to earth. David's throne is not in heaven, but God's throne.

God entered this world to add to his being God by becoming a man descended from David through Mary.

David throne, that of a man, is here on earth. God's throne is in heaven.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

God's throne, not David's.

 

[Dave L]

Jesus has been raised up to sit on David's throne when He returns to earth. David's throne is not in heaven, but God's throne.

God entered this world to add to his being God by becoming a man descended from David through Mary.

David throne, that of a man, is here on earth. God's throne is in heaven.

David's Throne IS God's Throne and Jesus IS God. Please observe;

“Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly.” 1 Kings 2:12 (KJV 1900)

“Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him.” 1 Chronicles 29:23 (KJV 1900)

“To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.” Revelation 3:21 (KJV 1900)

“And of all my sons, (for the LORD hath given me many sons,) he hath chosen Solomon my son to sit upon the throne of the kingdom of the LORD over Israel.” 1 Chronicles 28:5 (KJV 1900)

“Blessed be the LORD thy God, which delighted in thee to set thee on his throne, to be king for the LORD thy God: because thy God loved Israel, to establish them for ever, therefore made he thee king over them, to do judgment and justice.” 2 Chronicles 9:8 (KJV 1900)

“And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:” Revelation 22:1–3 (KJV 1900)

 

[Douggg]

Read Romans 11 carefully and notice, the only way the broken off from Israel are reattached is through faith in Christ. That should settle it. If not I have some other proofs.

That doesn't happen in a vaccuum, Dave. There are all the end-times prophecies that lead up to it.

 

[Dave L]

That doesn't happen in a vaccuum, Dave. There are all the end-times prophecies that lead up to it.

It still remains, no faith in Christ - No membership in Israel

 

[Biblewriter]

The hard truth is that, although the scriptures very clearly and explicitly describe the event that has been called the "rapture," they simply do not state its timing, in regard to other end time events which are also explicitly prophesied. ALL theories on when this event will take place are based on interpretation of various scriptures.

Some of these interpretations are based in a rank assumption that Christ will only return one time. This is something that no scripture states.

Others of these interpretations are based on assumptions abut the meanings of various Greek words used in the original texts of the scriptures. These may or may not be correct.

Others of these interpretations are based on a general knowledge of the prophetic scriptures. But these are correct only if the student actually understands the prophetic scriptures as well as he (or she) imagines himself (or herself) to be.

 

[Dave L]

The hard truth is that, although the scriptures very clearly and explicitly describe the event that has been called the "rapture," they simply do not state its timing, in regard to other end time events which are also explicitly prophesied. ALL theories on when this event will take place are based on interpretation of various scriptures.

Some of these interpretations are based in a rank assumption that Christ will only return one time. This is something that no scripture states.

Others of these interpretations are based on assumptions abut the meanings of various Greek words used in the original texts of the scriptures. These may or may not be correct.

Others of these interpretations are based on a general knowledge of the prophetic scriptures. But these are correct only if the student actually understands the prophetic scriptures as well as he (or she) imagines himself (or herself) to be.

This is what we are talking about. Rapturists have no scripture to support their claims. Paul places the rapture after the resurrection which according to Jesus happens on the last day.

 

[Douggg]

David's Throne IS God's Throne and Jesus IS God. Please observe;

“Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly.” 1 Kings 2:12 (KJV 1900)

here on earth, not in heaven

“Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him.” 1 Chronicles 29:23 (KJV 1900)

here on earth, not in heaven

“To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.” Revelation 3:21 (KJV 1900)

Jesus speaking as he was sitting on God's throne in heaven. Not David's.

“And of all my sons, (for the LORD hath given me many sons,) he hath chosen Solomon my son to sit upon the throne of the kingdom of the LORD over Israel.” 1 Chronicles 28:5 (KJV 1900)

here on earth, not in heaven

“Blessed be the LORD thy God, which delighted in thee to set thee on his throne, to be king for the LORD thy God: because thy God loved Israel, to establish them for ever, therefore made he thee king over them, to do judgment and justice.” 2 Chronicles 9:8 (KJV 1900)

Jesus sitting on God's throne in heaven, to be placed as King over Israel when he Returns, begotten as King on that day....Psalms 2

6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

“And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:” Revelation 22:1–3 (KJV 1900)

In the New Jerusalem, following Jesus's millennium rule on this present earth and the present Jerusalem.