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Rapture or No Rapture?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by new2calvin, Dec 25, 2002.

  1. Yes, there is a rapture.

  2. No, there is not a rapture.

  3. I don't know enough on the subject to answer.

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  1. Mr. John

    Mr. John New Member

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    Thank you sister Terri!

    Mr. John
     
  2. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Note that all Paul said was a mystery in 1 Corinthians 15:51 was that "we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed," that is, that not all Christians will have to die before being changed into their immortal bodies. The rapture and resurrection themselves weren't a mystery, for Jesus had clearly already taught both: "I will come again, and receive you unto myself" (John 14:3); "The Son of man coming... and shall gather together his elect" (Mark 13:26-27); "That every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40).

    Could all of the following passages speak of the same rapture at the same coming: John 14:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; Matthew 24:30-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:23, 52?

    Note that we Christians are referred to throughout Revelation (6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4), and there are no Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5).

    Note that the Bible doesn't refer to grace ending, but instead says "that in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace" (Ephesians 2:7). I believe the covenant of grace (Hebrews 10:29) is the "everlasting covenant" (Hebrews 13:20), and the gospel of grace (Acts 20:24) is the "everlasting gospel" (Revelation 14:6). We Christians who will be in the tribulation who have washed our "robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14) and have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13) will be in his grace.

    "Grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began" (2 Timothy 1:9).

    And grace will continue even after the tribulation, for at the 2nd coming Jesus "will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced" (Zechariah 12:10).

    God has always given grace: "Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD" (Genesis 6:8); "The LORD said unto Moses... thou hast found grace in my sight" (Exodus 33:17); "Found grace in the wilderness; even Israel" (Jeremiah 31:2); "Grace hath been shewed from the LORD our God" (Ezra 9:8); "He giveth grace" (Proverbs 3:34).

    I believe "a great multitude, which no man could number" of us Christians will be in the great tribulation (Revelation 7:9, 14) for the same reasons Christians have always gone through "much tribulation." "Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22). Note that the Greek word for "much" in Acts 14:22 is translated 59 times in the New Testament as "great." "And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience" (Romans 5:3). "That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation" (1 Thessalonians 3:3-4).

    During the coming great tribulation the Lord will allow the enemy to try some of us to the limit, just as the enemy tried Job to the limit, not because he had done anything wrong, but to show that his love for God wasn't based on his material wealth, his family, or his health, but on the simple fact that God was his creator and sustainer, and had shown him great kindness (Job 2:10). Job did not sin when faced with every trial a man can face. He remained loyal to God unto the end.

    I believe we are to look to the patient suffering of Job as our example: "Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy" (James 5:10-11). We Christians will need such patience in the coming tribulation: "Here is the patience and the faith of the saints" (Revelation 13:10). "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12-13).

    I believe Jesus said the tribulation will be cut short because we the elect will still be here: "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's (eklektos) sake those days shall be shortened" (Matthew 24:21-22).

    I believe we in the church are the elect, and need to put on longsuffering: "Put on therefore, as the elect (eklektos) of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering" (Colossians 3:12).

    Note that at the 2nd coming some of us elect will still be "alive and remain" (1 Thessalonians 4:15) on the earth: "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect (eklektos) from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven" (Mark 13:27).

    Note that we Christians who will be in the tribulation are Christians after the cross and after Pentecost who have washed our "robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14) and have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13), so we must be in his body (Ephesians 4:4-5).

    Note that the apostles had new believers baptized:

    Jesus: "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matthew 28:19).

    Peter: "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38); "Baptism doth also now save us" (1 Peter 3:21); "Can any man forbid water, that these [Gentiles] should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?" (Acts 10:47).

    Paul: "One Lord, one faith, one baptism" (Ephesians 4:5); "We are buried with him by baptism" (Romans 6:4); "Buried with him in baptism" (Colossians 2:12); "As many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ" (Galatians 3:27); "And many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized" (Acts 18:8); "When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus" (Acts 19:5); "And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway" (Acts 16:33); "And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there" (Acts 16:15); "I baptized also the household of Stephanas" (1 Corinthians 1:16).
     
  3. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Note that there is only one gospel, "the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Romans 1:16), in which "there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision" (Colossians 3:11); "for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain" (Acts 28:20).

    "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature" (Mark 16:15); "The gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister" (Colossians 1:23); "He which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed" (Galatians 1:23); "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:8-9).

    "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins" (Matthew 26:28); "hath made us able ministers of the new testament" (2 Corinthians 3:6); "Whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43); "the remission of their sins" (Luke 1:77); "through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins" (Romans 3:25).

    "And [Jesus] said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations" (Luke 24:46-47); "I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles" (Acts 26:22-23); "I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures" (1 Corinthians 15:3-4); "Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 20:21).

    "It is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith" (Romans 3:30); "the just shall live by faith" (Hebrews 10:38); "the just shall live by faith" (Romans 1:17); "the righteousness which is by faith" (Hebrews 11:7); "the righteousness of God which is by faith" (Romans 3:22).

    Note that the apostles preached the cross and the resurrection:

    Jesus: "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins" (Matthew 26:28); "And [Jesus] said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations" (Luke 24:46-47).

    John: "If we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin" (1 John 1:7); "Him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood" (Revelation 1:5); "For thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (Revelation 5:9); "Washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14); "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 12:11).

    Peter: "Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole... Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:10, 12); "Through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ... his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:2-3); "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ" (1 Peter 1:18-19).

    Paul: "I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures" (1 Corinthians 15:3-4).

    "Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they" (Acts 15:10-11).

    "Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment" (Acts 15:24).

    While Jesus directly revealed the gospel to Paul (Galatians 1:11-12), does Paul's use of "mystery" require that he was the only person to whom Jesus directly revealed "the mystery of the gospel" (Ephesians 6:19) regarding the salvation of the Gentiles (Ephesians 3:3-6)? Didn't Jesus directly reveal this also to Peter? "God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean" (Acts 10:28). Didn't the Gentiles first receive the gospel and the Holy Spirit through Peter, not Paul? "Through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord" (Acts 10:43-48).

    Isn't this why James refers to Simon Peter's prior experience and to the prophecies of the OT in support of Paul's ministry to the Gentiles? "Simeon [Peter] hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things" (Acts 15:14-17); and isn't this why Paul could say: "It is now revealed unto his holy apostles [plural] and prophets by the Spirit. That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel" (Ephesians 3:5-6); "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:13)?
     
  4. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    I also believe there will be a rapture. "Rapture" is from the Latin "rapiemur," which is how the old Latin translation of the Bible translated "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. But many Christians believe that they will be "caught up" all the way into heaven, and that this will happen before the tribulation, when the Bible doesn't promise us either of these things. It says that we Christians must go through the coming tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13), that we will be caught up into the clouds to meet Jesus as he descends at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), that this will happen "after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and that Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).
     
  5. Mr. John

    Mr. John New Member

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    Postrib, you still fail to see. Why did it take 10 years for the conversion of the gentiles? Did you notice that the Holy Spirit fell on the gentiles before water baptism? Why the difference? Did you notice the conversion of Saul in the previous chapter? Though you are correct with what Jesus said; however, Israel was to take the "gospel of the kingdom" to the rest of the world. Israel's leaders rejected it and the nation never repented. Those events led to a change in programs.

    Peter wrote his epistle many years later and he listened to Paul and became a member of the body of Christ. Look what he had to say about Paul [1 Peter 3:15,16]. Look at Galations 2 and tell me why there was a gospel of the circumcision and uncircumcision vrs 7and 8? Why did Paul withstood Peter when certain men from James came and he acted the hypocrite by having gentiles observe the Law that even Barnabus was caught up into it? Why did those from James observe the Law? You can quote scripture from Revelation but it is not for us to keep. That is conditional salvation and what Paul taught and wrote was grace apart from the Law. Tell me this: why did Jesus give Peter the keys to the kingdom and then James ended up being the head of the Jerusalem church?

    Mr. John

    http://bereanbiblesociety.org
     
  6. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    I believe Jesus and Paul preached the gospel of the kingdom:

    "Seek ye first the kingdom of God" (Matthew 6:33).

    "That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom" (1 Thessalonians 2:12).

    "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

    "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 15:50).

    "The kingdom of God is... righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost" (Romans 14:17).

    "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom" (Colossians 1:13).

    "I [Paul] have gone preaching the kingdom of God" (Acts 20:25).

    "Paul... received all that came in unto him, preaching the kingdom of God" (Acts 28:30-31).

    "We must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22).

    "That ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God" (2 Thessalonians 1:5).

    "Though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:8).

    "It is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith" (Romans 3:30); "the just shall live by faith" (Hebrews 10:38); "the just shall live by faith" (Romans 1:17); "the righteousness which is by faith" (Hebrews 11:7); "the righteousness of God which is by faith" (Romans 3:22).

    Note again that there is only one gospel, "the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Romans 1:16), in which "there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision" (Colossians 3:11), "for there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him" (Romans 10:12), in which "neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision" (Galatians 5:6, Galatians 6:15), in which "circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing" (1 Corinthians 7:19).

    Note that Paul even expressly reminds Peter that there was only one gospel: "When I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified" (Galatians 2:14-16).

    Note that Peter himself taught that no one could bear the law, but that all are saved by grace: "Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they" (Acts 15:7-11).

    Note that in the verse which says "the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter" (Galatians 2:7), in the original Greek there is no "the gospel of" before "the circumcision." The verse simply means that Paul's primary ministry would be to take "the" gospel (Galatians 2:5) of which there is "not another" (Galatians 1:7) to the uncircumcised while Peter's primary ministry would be to take it to the circumcised.

    But Peter's ministry of the gospel was not solely to the circumcised (Acts 15:7-11) just as Paul's ministry of the gospel was not solely to the uncircumcised (Acts 9:15). Peter not only preached the gospel also to the uncircumcised, he was the first one to preach it to them: "Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe" (Acts 15:7).

    Note that Paul preached the gospel also to the circumcised throughout his ministry, both before and after Acts 15 (Acts 13:16-39; Acts 14:1; Acts 17:1-4; Acts 17:10-12; Acts 17:17; Acts 18:4-8; Acts 18:19), as was ordained by Christ from the beginning of his ministry: "He is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel" (Acts 9:15).

    "Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience" (Acts 13:16); "Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent" (Acts 13:26); "Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses" (Acts 13:38-39).

    "And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed" (Acts 14:1).

    "They came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ. And some of them believed" (Acts 17:1-4).

    "And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed" (Acts 17:10-12).

    "Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews" (Acts 17:17).

    "He reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks. And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ... And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house" (Acts 18:4-5, 8).

    "And he came to Ephesus, and... entered into the synagogue, and reasoned with the Jews" (Acts 18:19).

    Note again, as did Peter: "Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they" (Acts 15:10-11).

    "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9). This means that God did not give us the gift of faith based upon our prior works, for "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us" (Titus 3:5). But once we have received the gift of faith it must be accompanied by works, for "By grace are ye saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8), but "faith, if it hath not works, is dead" (James 2:17); "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" (James 2:24).

    A work of faith, "remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love" (1 Thessalonians 1:3), "the work of faith with power" (2 Thessalonians 1:11), is not a work of the law (Romans 3:28) or a work of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21).
     
  7. Terri

    Terri Senior Veteran

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    Postrib I think we disagree on this--can't say for sure since your posts are just too long for me.

    I don't argue my position anyway--I leave that up to my evil twin--Jerri  [​IMG]She enjoys arguing!! 
     
  8. Mr. John

    Mr. John New Member

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    Good point Terri. I pointed out differences in early Acts and he still does not see that there was a gradual change of programs. From an earthly kingdom promised to Israel [Acts 2:39; 1:6,7] where water baptism (washings) was for the remission of sins [Acts 2:38; a very Jewish ritual]. Israel was to repent and bring Christ to the nations. The gentiles had no claims on God whatsoever [Eph 2:12] and what most people don't realize is that Jesus was sent unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel [Matt 15:21-27]. The apostles were sent out to preach to the lost sheep of the house of Israel [Matt 10:1-23]. Peter was given the keys to the kingdom [Matt 16:19] to open the kingdom to Israel. and it was God's pleasure and intention to give them the kingdom [Luke 12:32].

    The body of Christ's position is in the heavenlies and not on the earth [Eph 1:3; 2:6] and that it was a "mystery" [Eph 3:2-6; Rom16:25; Col 1:26]. The straw that broke the camel's back was the stoning of Stephen by the very high priest himself and others with him. They were so enraged that they were biting him [Acts 7:54] before they stoned him. We even see Jesus ready to return vs 56. God knew they would not repent so this is why Paul was raised up. He was not one of the 12 nor should he be considered Judas' replacement. Paul will not be sitting on one of the 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel [Matt 19:28]. That belongs to Matthias [Acts 1:21-26 *note the qualification]. No, Paul was the apostle to the gentiles [Rom 11:13]. The very same chapter of which he speaks of Israel being set aside. We, in the body of Christ, partake in the spiritual blessings of the Abrahamic Covenant and have no claims on Israel's promises or blessings.

    I gotta go. Things of importance needs to be taken care of. I am not responding no more. I got better things to do than to argue. You got the website link on post #65. Use it.

    Mr. John
     
  9. Terri

    Terri Senior Veteran

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    Mr John I have added your link to my favorites.

    Mr John is this your sequence of events.

    1) Falling Away
    2) Man of Sin is revealed
    3) Rapture
    4) Great Tribulation
    5) Second Coming

    One question: is the Great Tribulation broken up into two parts, one called the Wrath OR is the Great Tribulation and the Wrath the same thing?  This still confuses me. I'm not sure if I am pre-trib or pre-wrath.  Although, I do agree with you that someone's position on it is not worth arguing over. :)



      
     
     
  10. Terri

    Terri Senior Veteran

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    [​IMG]DeafPosttrib the Jews of Jesus day made the same mistake when they didn't see two "comings"!
     
  11. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    No doubt, the rapture was then, is now, and will always be a great mystery until it becomes the past, but it will still continue to be a mystery even after that, for the ones who believe the strong delusion that God will send in the tribulation.

    The Rapture = the mystery of mysteries of the King of kings and Lord of lords!!
     
  12. Mr. John

    Mr. John New Member

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  13. Terri

    Terri Senior Veteran

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    Mr John was this directed to me?  I don't even know what a dispensationalist is, although I have certainly heard of it--I just look for the truth where ever I can find it! 

    I'm sorry if I offended you with my questions![​IMG]
     
  14. Smilin

    Smilin Spirit of the Wolf

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    I voted no...

    I've started threads on this topic as well...

    From everything I've read within the Bible, as well as studying history, I conclude that the symbology in Revelations was related to the destruction of Jerusalem...

    Just my thoughts...
     
  15. Mr. John

    Mr. John New Member

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    No, no offence Terri. The site was directed toward everyone.

    Mr. John
     
  16. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Note that the church will rule on the earth during the millennium:

    "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father... He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches" (Revelation 2:26, 27, 29).

    "We shall reign on the earth" (Revelation 5:10).

    "They lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" (Revelation 20:4).

    "Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth" (Matthew 5:5).

    Note that the land covenant is for all those in Christ: "I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land" (Genesis 17:8); "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ... And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Galatians 3:16, 29).

    So that the land of Israel will be divided among both Jews and Gentiles in the millennium: "So shall ye divide this land unto you according to the tribes of Israel. And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel. And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord GOD" (Ezekiel 47:21-23).

    "Many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee" (Zechariah 2:11).

    I believe Jesus and Paul preached the gospel of the kingdom:

    "Seek ye first the kingdom of God" (Matthew 6:33).

    "That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom" (1 Thessalonians 2:12).

    "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

    "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 15:50).

    "The kingdom of God is... righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost" (Romans 14:17).

    "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom" (Colossians 1:13).

    "I [Paul] have gone preaching the kingdom of God" (Acts 20:25).

    "Paul... received all that came in unto him, preaching the kingdom of God" (Acts 28:30-31).

    "We must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22).

    "That ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God" (2 Thessalonians 1:5).

    "Though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:8).

     
    Note that the apostles had new believers baptized:

    Jesus: "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matthew 28:19).

    Peter: "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38); "Baptism doth also now save us" (1 Peter 3:21); "Can any man forbid water, that these [Gentiles] should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?" (Acts 10:47).

    Paul: "One Lord, one faith, one baptism" (Ephesians 4:5); "We are buried with him by baptism" (Romans 6:4); "Buried with him in baptism" (Colossians 2:12); "As many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ" (Galatians 3:27); "And many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized" (Acts 18:8); "When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus" (Acts 19:5); "And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway" (Acts 16:33); "And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there" (Acts 16:15); "I baptized also the household of Stephanas" (1 Corinthians 1:16).

     
    Note that the gospel has always included the Gentiles:

    "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature" (Mark 16:15); "the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister" (Colossians 1:23).

    "In thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed" (Genesis 22:18, 26:4); "and the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed" (Galatians 3:8); "And [Jesus] said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations" (Luke 24:46-47).

    "And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth" (Isaiah 49:6); "I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles" (Acts 26:22-23); "for mine eyes have seen thy salvation, which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; a light to lighten the Gentiles" (Luke 2:30-32); "and in his name shall the Gentiles trust" (Matthew 12:21).

    "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).

    "Simeon [Peter] hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things" (Acts 15:14-17).

    "I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation" (Deuteronomy 32:21); "I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you" (Romans 10:19); "as he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God" (Romans 9:25-26).

    "I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh" (Joel 2:28); "I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh" (Acts 2:17).

     
    "Jesus should die for that nation; And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad" (John 11:52); "Other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd" (John 10:16), "one body, and... one Lord" (Ephesians 4:4-5).

     
    Note that Paul preached the gospel also to the circumcised throughout his ministry, both before and after Acts 15 (Acts 13:16-39; Acts 14:1; Acts 17:1-4; Acts 17:10-12; Acts 17:17; Acts 18:4-8; Acts 18:19), as was ordained by Christ from the beginning of his ministry: "He is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel" (Acts 9:15).

    "Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience" (Acts 13:16); "Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent" (Acts 13:26); "Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses" (Acts 13:38-39).

    "And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed" (Acts 14:1).

    "They came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ. And some of them believed" (Acts 17:1-4).

    "And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed" (Acts 17:10-12).

    "Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews" (Acts 17:17).

    "He reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks. And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ... And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house" (Acts 18:4-5, 8). "And he came to Ephesus, and... entered into the synagogue, and reasoned with the Jews" (Acts 18:19).

     
    "Blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25).

    Note that it is only a blindness "in part" that has come upon physical Israel, for the church was begun by Israelites: "For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin" (Romans 11:1), and there still are a great many Jewish believers today: "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:13).
     
  17. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Note that all of us Christians who will be in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4) will not be appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9) because during the tribulation nobody in heaven says God's wrath "is come" until near the end of the tribulation, after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 15:1; Revelation 16), and none of the 7 vials are poured out on those of us who have obtained salvation. I believe we are even blessed at the 6th vial (Revelation 16:15), that we might endure to the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12), which is the day I believe Jesus will come back (Revelation 19).
     
  18. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Note that the Old Testament did distinguish between Jesus' two comings: the one in Isaiah 53 where he dies, and the one in Zechariah 14 where he comes to conquer and rule, but neither the Old Testament nor the New teaches a 3rd coming.
     
  19. Mr. John

    Mr. John New Member

    77
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    Postrib,

    Let agree to disagree because I have a job. A wife who had a major stroke six years ago at the age of 38. A kidney transplant in 1980. A son who I have to keep an eye on. A daughter and two grandchildren whom we visit twice a month in another state. I am way too busy to respond to your viewpoint. Why don't you argue with Carlaimpinge who has a great website:

    http://themidweekrapture.com

    Mr. John
     
  20. Faithful1

    Faithful1 Member

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    Thanks; Deafposttrib>>> YOU"RE A BLESSING - glad to have you here preaching truth and taking a stand against pre-trib falsehood. Sorry, it took so long to respond.....for the last 2 weeks I've been out WITNESSING; so fighting against false doctrine on this thread had to take second place; (I'm sure rollingthunder won't be happy to realize that, but forcing him to remaining in his error for another two weeks is mild punishment for anyone willfully choosing to reject the truth.). :D :D

    You said,
    >>"I do not see split or two phases of the Second Advent in the Bible. I can see there is only ONE future coming in the Bible. "<<

    Of course you don't see two more Advents coming because you are abiding in the Holy Spirit and it is obvious He is not going to show you something that isn't going to happen..... As Jesus said, "And He ( the Spirit of truth) will show you the things to come". Two more advents would make a total of THREE comings of Christ! - (I guess these guys want us to believe Christ will come as often as it takes to get EVERYONE saved!)

    I always have to laugh at these 'two advent' folks .....as if Christ comes back for a schizophenic Bride; Yea, " Hey I'll come back in 2000 years to get 1/2 of your lovely body, and the other half I'll get later (after another 3.5 years)!! THEN we'll get married!!" HA HA :D

    Faithful1

    "...For the marriage of the Lamb is come , and His Wife (not half His wife) hath made herself ready". (Rev.19:7)
     
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