Rapture or No Rapture?

[rollinTHUNDER]

Originally posted by Reformationist
Where in Revelations does it mention the anti-Christ?  Have you ever really studied this modern day belief of end times for biblical accuracy?  Revelations is not about the end of the world.  It's a letter written to first century Christians telling them pertinant information that they needed to know regarding the end of the old covenant, culminating with the destruction of the Temple.  What good would it do to tell the first century Christians of events that weren't going to take place for thousands of years?  Let me guess.  You think THE anti-Christ is going to be some guy from the middle east?  Do you know who "the Beast" is in Revelations?  How about the false prophet?  The Harlot?  No where in Revelations does it even suggest that there is a separate rapture of believers and non-believers.  You should really read the book "Paradise Restored."  It will show you that this belief of the contemporary church that has been commercialized in the Left Behind series is bunk.

God bless

No thanks!!  I don't read books put out by scoffers.  Also, you assume that the book of Revelations was just fot 1st century christiams, but where did you get this idea??  Wasn't it Jesus Himself that said He didn't know the day or the hour, nor the angels, but only His Father in heaven??  You seem to think that all  prophecy is found in only the book of Revelation, when in fact, over 25% of the Bible is prophecy.  You don't even realize that your very words are fulfilling end time prophecy. 

2 Peter 3: 3-4 - "First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. (4)They will say, "Where is this coming He promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."

 

 

[Mr. John]

I am posting here something I wrote on a different thread.

Brothers and sisters....all I have to say is tsk, tsk, tsk. Arguing whether or not the rapture comes first or confusing it with the Second Coming.

Well I am going to teach you something that makes total sense. First of all think about this...Who, what, where and why is the first order of things to understand scriptures. When reading ask, who is this addressed to, where is this taking place, what point in time was this written, and why this was written? Okay now, here we go (I am going to do this one post at a time so not to overwhelm anyone here).

The Second Coming of Christ [Rev. 19:11-16; Matt 24:16-30] is related to the nation of Israel. You know, that place which is on the other side of the planet. Where is the touch down point? the Mount of Olives from which he accended [Acts 1:9-11] which occurs at the close of the Great Tribulation. Who is the Great Tribulation meant for? Israel [Daniel 12:1]. Of course it encompases the entire planet but the G.T. will cause Israel to do national repentance and acceptence of Jesus as their Messiah So the Davidic Kingdom can be established [Acts 1:6-7].

I am closing now since I am busy. This was a really light lesson and I intend to follow up on this to show why the Rapture has nothing to do with the Second Coming. Here is a clue: different program. Bye

 

[Mr. John]

I gave a clue in my last post: different program. First of all, I want everyone who is interested to bear with me. I need to explain a few things before I get to the different program.



In early Acts, after Jesus was taken up to Heaven, the Apostles began to offer Israel the Davidic Kingdom [Acts 2:1-36]. If you notice Peter message was not directed toward any gentile but to "devout Jews" dwelling in Jerusalem out of every nation. Pentecost was one of Israel's annual feast in which every male was required to appear at the sanctuary at Jerusalem [Ex.23:14-17]. Even the obtaining of salvation was different [Acts 2:38]. Water baptism was required for the remission of sins and then the receiving of the Holy Spirit followed.



In verse 39, For the promise is unto you (Israel), and to your children, and to all that are afar off (Jews in distant lands), even as many as the Lord, our God (Israel's claim) shall call. In Chapter 3, after the healing of the lame man at the temple, Peter made his second sermon to "Ye men of Israel" [verse 12]. Now read on down to verse 19-21, repent and be converted...verse 20, and He shall send Jesus (back to rule Israel, ie, Second Coming)...verse 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution (restoration of the Davidic kindom to Israel which Christ would come back to rule [Acts 1:6; 2 Sam 7:13,16 I Chron. 17:3-15]).



I am not going to do heavy duty scripture study here. i only have time to give this information a little at a time because I have a busy schedual. I also work for a living. I do hope you are getting the gist of what I am written so far. I want to skip right to the point of where Stephen [please read Acts 7.]is being stoned. Stephen had just addressed the Sanhedrin which Israel's high priest and other high ranking officals of Israel's religion was in attendance. If you look closely at Act 7:56, You see Stephen exclaim that Jesus was standing on the right hand of God. Mainstream Christianity teaches that Jesus was welcoming the martyr Stephen. I beg to differ. I have come to the conclusion that Jesus was ready to return if Israel's leaders would have repented. Yes, Israel was that close to having the Davidic Kingdom established. But things did not work out that way at all.

My next post I will go more into a bit more detail (time permitting) to what happens next. The answer to the clue: different program. Until next time.

 

[Mr. John]

I have to work today. But I will continue. I don't know if I will have to continue with another post to complete this. To continue: Previously I wrote that "Jesus was standing, ready to return," and how I interpreted (among those of the Bearean Bible Society) that if the governing body of Israel would have repented that national repentance would have occured. This is not saying the Great Tribulation would not have happened because it was prophesied in the O.T. that it would. It has to come first before the Second Coming.

As we can see from Acts 8 that a great presecution occured from none other than Israel's spiritual leaders against the apostles and Hebrew believers. Note: I should have also called them the Kingdom church. Saul (also known as Paul) made havoc of the church , verse 3, and the believers scattered out of Jerusalem but preached the word wherever they went, verse 4. In Chapter 9 we have Saul desiering letters from THE HIGH PRIEST to the synagoges of Damascus that if he found any Hebrew believers, no matter what the gender, he would bring them bound to Jerusalem. Now we all should know about the conversion of Saul on his way to Damascus. However, this conversion marked a turning point. A begining of a transition period.

Has anyone realised that Jesus and the apostles lived under the Law and that the Hebrew church of early Acts lived under the Law? Something happened when Paul because the "apostle to the gentiles" [Romans 11:13.] Even through the entire book of Acts the Davidic Kingdom was still offered to Israel and Israel continured to reject her Messiah. What God did under Paul ministry was the formation of "The Body of Christ." This was not prophesied in the O.T. If you would please read Eph 3:1-7 you will see that the dispensation of grace was given to him by revelation of the "mystery of Christ" that the gentiles should be fellow heirs and partakers of his promises. Notice in verse 5 that this was not known in other ages but it is now revealed. "It is now" is present tense. See also Colossians 1:25,26.

Now what did God do to make the "Body of Christ" possible? If you look at Romans 9:4 which says that Israel received the covenants, giving of the Law, service of God, and the promises that belonged to them in which Christ came in the flesh--see also Romans 15:8. What happen was that Israel was nationally set aside by God [Romans 11:32, For God hath concluded them ALL in unbelief that he might have mercy upon all]. Romans 10:12 says that there is now no difference between Jew or gentile. The Jews no longer have that special relation with God but are counted among us gentiles to accept salvation through the shed blood of Christ with the forgiveness of sins to become part of his Body. Salvation through the blood of Christ was never mentioned in early Acts.

Now we see that Israel had to be nationally set aside to be counted in unbelief with the gentiles so that God could create the "Body of Christ" which both were never prophesied nor was the Rapture [I Thess 4:13-18]. God's prophetic clock ground to a halt in Acts 28:28 but will resume after the Rapture because in Romans 11:29, "The gifts and calling of God are without repentance."

After the Rapture the prophetic clock will resume and the method of salvation will be: "Repent, and be baptized for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost [Acts 2:38]. Yes, this is the time when the actual outpouring of the Spirit will occur and the offering of the Davidic Kingdom will once again be offered to Israel who will accept it this time around. The "Body of Christ" has to be removed so that the Law can be reinstated.

I hope you enjoyed this rather simple Bible study and it is my hope that it clears up a few misconceptions about the Rapture and Second Coming. Till next time--God Bless.



Mr. John

 

[Mr. John]

The Book of Revelation was written for the future "Kingdom Church" after the Body of Christ is removed. An unknown number of gentiles will be converted to this Kingdom program during the Tribulation. The Jew, who has recieved the outpouring of the Spirit [Joel 2:28-32] will understand the book of Revelation and all prophecies related to this time period. They will understand what Jesus was saying in regard to the kingdom program. We, the Body of Christ, should be paying more attention to what Paul has written since he is our apostle.

Mr. John

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
No thanks!!  I don't read books put out by scoffers.

Scoffers of what?  A hundred year old theology?

Also, you assume that the book of Revelations was just fot 1st century christiams, but where did you get this idea??

I never said that.  I said it was a letter written to first century Christians telling them what they should expect to see in their lifetime.  Why in the world would John have told somone in 68 A.D. about a guy who was going to rise up in a foreign government 2000 years later?  That just plain silly.  For the record, all Scripture is useful for many things, including Revelations.  The issues that are applicable today are ethical, not prophetic.  Yes, there are some verses in Revelations that deal specifically with Heaven and THE last day.  But, for the most part, the book of Revelations was about the persecution that the first century Christians were, could expect, to experience.  It was about the Roman government of their day.  It was about the Judaizers that combined forces with the Roman government to stamp out Christianity.  It was about the moral sewer of the world, Rome.  It was about standing by the Truths that they had been taught and not being led away by false teachings.  It WAS NOT about the crappola that is in the Left Behind series of non-biblically based fiction books.

Wasn't it Jesus Himself that said He didn't know the day or the hour, nor the angels, but only His Father in heaven??  You seem to think that all  prophecy is found in only the book of Revelation, when in fact, over 25% of the Bible is prophecy.

Where did you get this idea.  I never made such a claim.

You don't even realize that your very words are fulfilling end time prophecy. 

2 Peter 3: 3-4 - "First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. (4)They will say, "Where is this coming He promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."

LOL!  Oh, I see.  Because I think your interpretation of Revelation is ridiculously unbiblical then I'm one of the scoffers spoken of in the Bible?  Sure.  Okay.  LOL!!

God bless

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

Originally posted by Mr. John
The Book of Revelation was written for the future "Kingdom Church" after the Body of Christ is removed. An unknown number of gentiles will be converted to this Kingdom program during the Tribulation. The Jew, who has recieved the outpouring of the Spirit [Joel 2:28-32] will understand the book of Revelation and all prophecies related to this time period. They will understand what Jesus was saying in regard to the kingdom program. We, the Body of Christ, should be paying more attention to what Paul has written since he is our apostle.

Mr. John

Amen to that Mr. John!!!

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Mr. John
The Book of Revelation was written for the future "Kingdom Church" after the Body of Christ is removed. An unknown number of gentiles will be converted to this Kingdom program during the Tribulation. The Jew, who has recieved the outpouring of the Spirit [Joel 2:28-32] will understand the book of Revelation and all prophecies related to this time period. They will understand what Jesus was saying in regard to the kingdom program. We, the Body of Christ, should be paying more attention to what Paul has written since he is our apostle.

Mr. John

Let me get this straight.  You believe the book of Revelations, which was written around 68 A.D., was written for people that weren't even going to be born for thousands and thousands of years?  Am I just misunderstanding you?

God bless

 

[JesusServant]

Originally posted by Reformationist
Let me get this straight.  You believe the book of Revelations, which was written around 68 A.D., was written for people that weren't even going to be born for thousands and thousands of years?  Am I just misunderstanding you?

God bless

It's "Revelation" and if you don't believe it was written for future generations, then you're a preterist ref.  I believe the letters to the churches were for then and certainly act as valid warnings for how different churches have become even today, but obviously most of the last half of Revelation has not happened yet, so who was it written for if not for us or a future generation?

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by JesusServant
It's "Revelation" and if you don't believe it was written for future generations, then you're a preterist ref.  I believe the letters to the churches were for then and certainly act as valid warnings for how different churches have become even today, but obviously most of the last half of Revelation has not happened yet, so who was it written for if not for us or a future generation?

Let me re-word as what I said was, understandably, not clear.  Yes, I believe that much of what is spoken of in Revelations is relevent to today and future generations.  I just don't think the major prophetic revelations in that book are concerned with something to happen in the future.  I believe that most of what is spoken of was a direct contemporary response to what those Christians were encountering.  I believe in a Second Coming, yet to come, so, no, I am not a preterist.  I am, in fact, a postmillennialist.  My point was that most of the prophetic statements were regarding what was then modern day concerns, i.e., the Roman empire, the Jewish leaders, Israel, the Old Covenant, the destruction of the Temple, persecution of Christians, etc.  The theme of biblical prophecy is ethical in nature.  Therefore, they most certainly have ramifications for Christians who lived after the destruction of the Temple.

Hope that clears up my point of view.

God bless

 

[kern]

I agree with Reformationist(!!!!!) -- Preterism means that you think the second coming of Christ has already happened, which is not the same thing as believing that most of Revelation prophecy is geared towards 1st-century Christians. Even if you ignore Revelation completely there are many verses that speak to a second coming of Christ -- you do not need to be a pure dispensationalist to be a futurist.

-Chris

 

[JesusServant]

Originally posted by Reformationist
Let me re-word as what I said was, understandably, not clear.  Yes, I believe that much of what is spoken of in Revelations is relevent to today and future generations.  I just don't think the major prophetic revelations in that book are concerned with something to happen in the future.  I believe that most of what is spoken of was a direct contemporary response to what those Christians were encountering.  I believe in a Second Coming, yet to come, so, no, I am not a preterist.  I am, in fact, a postmillennialist.  My point was that most of the prophetic statements were regarding what was then modern day concerns, i.e., the Roman empire, the Jewish leaders, Israel, the Old Covenant, the destruction of the Temple, persecution of Christians, etc.  The theme of biblical prophecy is ethical in nature.  Therefore, they most certainly have ramifications for Christians who lived after the destruction of the Temple.

Hope that clears up my point of view.

God bless

Sure does, thanks.  Could you help me to define postmillenialism?  I've never fully understood this view.  Maybe start a thread someone on it and link me in?    I may have this view and don't even know it, but I don't think I do since I believe there will be a 1000 year reign of Christ to come.

 

[JesusServant]

Originally posted by kern
I agree with Reformationist(!!!!!) -- Preterism means that you deny a second coming of Christ,

In all fairness, no, they think He came already, not that there was no second coming.  They do deny a future coming of Christ.

 

[kern]

Originally posted by JesusServant
In all fairness, no, they think He came already, not that there was no second coming.  They do deny a future coming of Christ.

You are absolutely correct; I changed the wording of my post about 10 minutes ago.

-Chris

 

[Mr. John]

Reformationist quote:

 

Let me get this straight.&nbsp; You believe the book of Revelations, which was written around 68 A.D., was written for people that weren't even going to be born for thousands and thousands of years?&nbsp; Am I just misunderstanding you? <IMG alt="" src="http://www.christianforums.com/images/smilies/scratch.gif" border=0>

My Reply:

Actually, Revelation was written around 95 A.D. but I do think you are misunderstanding me and I am not going to pretend to have all the answers. Early Acts was the offering of the kingdom to Israel which was rejected. God had a hidden plan that was never prophesied or written anywhere in the Bible except in the letters that the apostle Paul wrote [see Eph. 3:4,5; Col. 1:26; Rom. 16:25]. This mystery was kept secret since the world began but was given, by revelation, to Paul that Israel would be set aside and Israel cast into unbelief with the gentiles so that he could have mercy upon all [Rom 11:30-32]. The original intent was that "all Israel shall be saved [Rom 11:26,27] and salvation to the world would come through Israel [John 4:22; Heb 8:8-12] with a new covenant where all will know the Lord and there will be no need for anyone to teach His ways because God would write them in the heart. If this covenant existed today we would not be having this discussion.

On the other hand, the Jews became enemies of the gospel, rather, Paul's gospel, for our sake&nbsp;but God will have to, once again, offer the Kingdom to Israel for the fathers' sake for "the gifts and calling of God are without repentance" [Rom 11:29]. This can only happen when the Body of Christ is removed from the Earth and the prophetic clock can once again begin to tick. To&nbsp;this day,&nbsp;the majority of&nbsp;Jews are hostile to the gospel as they were in Paul's day and very few have been saved over the centuries. After the Rapture, the Jews of Israel and in distant lands will know that Jesus is their Messiah. Too bad that it will take the Great Tribulation for them to realise this.

Mr. John

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Mr. John
Actually, Revelation was written around 95 A.D.

Actually, no it wasn't.&nbsp; It was written before the fall of the Temple.&nbsp; So while I can't say it was exactly 68 A.D. I can tell you it was most definitely before 70 A.D.

God bless

 

[kern]

Some theologians do place the writing of Revelation in 95 AD, but a lot of them view Revelation as not prophetic at all -- they claim that John was symbolically (in the manner of the Jewish apocalypses) of the tribulations and trials that the 1st-cent Christians were experiencing.

-Chris

 

[Mr. John]

C.I.Scofield placed it at 95 A.D. Another thought from a dispensational viewpoint is that 70 A.D. was when Israel was nationally set aside and placed&nbsp;fully in&nbsp;unbelief with the gentiles when the temple was destroyed. On the other hand,&nbsp;the Body of Christ went into full effect at this point (the transition completed) where God could have mercy upon all.

However, I don't care when the book of Revelation was written. Christianity has always been a hodge podge of different belief systems. All I did here was explain a viewpoint that is not popular among mainstream christianity. Accept it or reject it makes no difference to me so long as you are saved and under the bood of Christ. That is what matters most.

&nbsp;

Mr. John

 

[postrib]

...The Body of Christ was not prophesied...

Note that the gospel has always included the salvation of Gentiles: "In thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed" (Genesis 22:18, 26:4); "and the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed" (Galatians 3:8).

"And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth" (Isaiah 49:6); "for mine eyes have seen thy salvation, which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; a light to lighten the Gentiles" (Luke 2:30-32); "and in his name shall the Gentiles trust" (Matthew 12:21).

"Jesus should die for that nation; And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad" (John 11:52); "Other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd" (John 10:16), "one body, and... one Lord" (Ephesians 4:4-5).

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).

"Simeon [Peter] hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things" (Acts 15:14-17).

"I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation" (Deuteronomy 32:21); "I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you" (Romans 10:19); "as he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God" (Romans 9:25-26).

"Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature" (Mark 16:15); "the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister" (Colossians 1:23).

...The rapture will be pre-trib...

Note that no scripture promises us a rapture before the tribulation. Jesus says he will come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and Paul says Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). We Christians must go through the coming tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13).

...the Rapture has nothing to do with the Second Coming...

I believe all of the following passages speak of the same rapture at the same coming:

"I will come again, and receive you unto myself" (John 14:3).

"The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him" (2 Thessalonians 2:1).

"The Son of man coming in the clouds... with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect" (Matthew 24:30-31).

"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord... with the trump of God... shall be caught up together" (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

"They that are Christ's at his coming... at the last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:23, 52).

I believe the doctrine of a pre-trib rapture would require that the 2nd coming be a 3rd coming (Hebrews 9:28), that the last trumpet be the 9th from last (1 Corinthians 15:52; Revelation 8:6; Matthew 24:31), and that the 1st resurrection be the 2nd (Revelation 20:4-6), so that it would not really make sense of scripture.

 

[Faithful1]

Absolutely correct; Postrib.

The same scriptures that speak of the 'catching away' always say it happens simultaneously with Jesus' Second Coming in Glory AND with the RESURRECTION.
Only those trying to substitute their own philosophy would believe otherwise; and they do so by trying to rationalize away the clear Word of God. The scriptures (see below) clearly say all three events occur together:

"For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trump of God (Second Coming in power & glory), and the dead in Christ shall rise first (resurrection); then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together WITH THEM to meet the Lord in the air....(rapture)" 1Thess.5:16

"Immediately after the tribulation........They shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory (2nd Coming); And he shall send his angels with the sound of a great trumpet, and thay shall gather his elect....(rapture) - - Jesus (Matt 24)

"Behold I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (rapture), at the last trump, for the trumpet shall sound (2nd Coming), and the dead shall be raised incorruptible...(resurrection). 1Corin.15:51

All three events occur at the same time; That's the way Jesus taught it ; that's the way the early Church and Apostles believed it, and that's what I'm sticking to.

Trying to seperate these events is clearly false doctrine promoted by false teachers of which Jesus clearly warned us to be aware in the last days. They can cry and scream and carry on all they want but it doesn't change what Jesus said.

Faithful1