Rapture Believers, question about post-rapture faith

[dfw69]

No, see that's the difference, pretrib and many pre wrath, who still see Revelation 19 as the second coming (or 3rd coming in most pre wrath) see Jesus as coming down from heaven in Revelation 19,

Ok

like for pre trib He comes down, resurrects, raptures the saints in secret (which disagrees with how the bible portrays it, as a very noisy and overt event),

I don’t believe it will be in secret

Noisy as in 2 trumpets sound ?
And overt as in the world will see us go up? Possibly

But just so you understand me ,the timing of the rapture has nothing to do with the second coming

Those that believe that run into all sorts of problems

then "the 7 year tribulation" happens

Actually I believe the rapture happens before the false messianic age

(the cornerstone of their position depends on all "the tribulation" being the wrath of God,

Yea the tribulation of the false messianic age is different from the wrath of god

But during the wrath of god there is great trib going on when the AOD is set up

and they will espouse "7 year tribulation" because their doctrine starts showing cracks as soon as the "7 year" tribulation is shown to be unblblical.)

It is , how?

, while Jesus has returned to heaven, and then Jesus comes back down for "the second coming" in Revelation 19 on flying white horses.

I’ll have to give that vision more attention

The way I see it, actually agrees with many post trib... He only comes down from heaven one more time in the future,

Yes

except, I see Him coming back earlier than they do, because of the difference between tribulation and the wrath of God. Revelation 19 Jesus is already on Earth, He never returned to Heaven after coming down at the 7th seal or just after Revelation 14 (parallel narratives). He comes down, the saints are with God the Father in heaven, while Jesus is on Earth alone doing the things that are throughout the old testament, then at Revelation 19, the saints rejoin Jesus on Earth, to witness His triumph.

But rev 7 hints no return nor rev 14

It’s hidden

This leaves that space in time where Jesus said He tread the winepress of His wrath alone.

Yes

A passage of scripture that neither pre trib, nor post trib have an answer to other than to deflect and claim Isaiah 63 was about the Babylonian invasion or some such nonsense.. really, Jesus came down from heaven during the babylonian invasion? But for many people, they ignore a lot of old testament prophecy, they consider the old testament wrapped up already, all fulfilled by Jesus' first coming.

Yes I agree many Old Testament prophecies are yet to be fulfilled

But there is so much end times 2nd coming prophecy contained in them. Revelation is loaded with references to it.

Yes

well He went up on a cloud from the Mount of Olives, we know from the Old Testament (Zechariah 14) that He comes down on the mount of loves, and Matthew 24 and Revelation 1 and Revelation 14 and other places have Jesus (or in the Old Testament, God) coming down on a cloud.... not a white horse.

Ok so if not on a white horse eventually he gets on one right?

Nope, it's Jesus already on Earth, then the saints rejoin Him... for the wedding supper of the Lamb.

So u believe the wedding supper takes place on earth

it's funny, so many people view the Wedding Supper of the Lamb as being a feast for US in heaven before the 2nd Coming.

Why is it funny and why do u believe it’s in earth?

but... and I actually laughed out loud when I realized this... that's not what it is at all. Like I said, you don't actually see Jesus in heaven in Revelation 19, they talk about Him and refer to Him but they don't deign to worship Him along with God the Father but only God the Father?

Yea I’ll have to do more searching on this part

Then I realized it. the Angel talking about the Wedding Supper of the Lamb was talking about a "feast" on Earth, where the bride rejoins Jesus on Earth, but the feast... is for the birds.

I can see what your saying

the saints come down, and there's no feasting for humans in the passage, but the angels call all the carrion birds to feast on the flesh of all the people killed at Armageddon. That is the wedding supper of the lamb, the supper of the great God.

Nice

Oh we will feast in the Millennial Kingdom, that is what Tabernacles depicts after all... but the specific "wedding supper of the Lamb" is actually the carrion birds feasting on the flesh of Jesus' enemies.

Seems so

Well Matthew 24 has the same signs as Revelation 6, but if in Revelation 7 they're worshiping Jesus in heaven then He's still in heaven, Jesus would be lying if Matthew 24 was the signs of His return but He doesn't return around them.

But they ask him what are the signs in Matt 24

I see the 6th seal, 7th seal, and 1st trumpet all happening on the same day, that way it fits passages talking about the 2nd coming involving the world being set on fire, because that's what the 1st trumpet is.. the world being set on fire. So the heavens open up, the saints go up, they worship Jesus in heaven, while the heavens are still open, then Jesus comes down, silence in heaven, and then the first trumpet.

Yea something doesn’t sit well here

It is, but we don't see the Lamb in heaven any time after Revelation 7, and in the second narrative, Revelation 14 shows Him on the clouds, but He is not in heaven in Revelation 15, or 19.


but it's a very overt event, every eye shall see.

Thanks fir your views

 

[dfw69]

Oh, that verse, okay.. you gotta take context into account. Paul was talking about the dead in Christ, loved ones that had passed away, people were worried they'd miss the second coming. Paul was telling them about the resurrection and that it in fact happens before the rapture.

That's the comfort. Paul wasn't talking about pretrib. Paul was talking about nobody missing out from being gathered to the Lord.


consider that the Thessalonians were confused by this first letter and some quit their jobs just waiting for the imminent return of the Lord, that's why Paul wrote the second letter, and in 2 Thessalonians 2, Paul actually says that the rapture is not imminent, but comes after 2 signs: apostasy and the abomination of desolation.

So basically don't quit your job until the abomination of desolation.

Jamdoc how it going


Where do u see in scripture when these scriptures takes place on your timeline of prophecy?

1 cor 15:51-53
1 thes 4:13-18

Do u believe they are related?

 

[Timtofly]

So basically don't quit your job until the abomination of desolation.

Why would one quit their job for any reason listed in Scripture concerning eschatology? If you told you boss you are quitting in two weeks because of a prophecied event, and it never happens, how does that look?

If you have to flee, won't all be fleeing from war at the same time? Fleeing only deals with those living near Jerusalem.

Pretty sure no one will have to quit premature. One day they won't show up for work, because they are no longer on earth, or just leave their dead body at work for the lost to dispose of.

 

[Jamdoc]

Ok

I don’t believe it will be in secret

Noisy as in 2 trumpets sound ?
And overt as in the world will see us go up? Possibly

Definitely. it's very overt, there's no secret to be covered up as most pretrib believe, that you have to hide the rapture and claim it's alien abduction or anything like that. 1 Thessalonians 4, Matthew 24, it's very overt, noisy, and people know what has happened, and in Revelation 6, they are very conscious and know that wrath comes next.

But just so you understand me ,the timing of the rapture has nothing to do with the second coming

Those that believe that run into all sorts of problems

Paul connected the two over and over and over. 1 Thessalonians 4, 2 Thessalonians 2, even 1 Corinthians 15, the order of the resurrection, "then they that are Christ's at His coming" Titus 2:13, is the blessed hope a pretribulation rapture? No it's the 2nd coming.

Actually I believe the rapture happens before the false messianic age



Yea the tribulation of the false messianic age is different from the wrath of god

But during the wrath of god there is great trib going on when the AOD is set up

nope, that's part of the problem. You don't see the 6th seal as being the same signs that Jesus gave as happening "immediately after the tribulation"

if the 6th seal is the end of the great tribulation, then that means only the stuff that happened before the 6th seal can be considered great tribulation, and seeing Revelation as 2 parallel narratives, you get a pattern of tribulation, deliverance, saints in heaven, wrath of God.

Consider for a moment this: the 4 horsemen are pre 70th week events, Antichrist needs to have power and authority before he can enter into any kind of international covenant after all.
So first 4 seals
then
Antichrist gains power, returns world to a new normalcy, confirms the covenant with Israel (you can see this in Daniel 11:21), and so... 3.5 years of false Messianic era, though the Antichrist is at war with Egypt at this time according to Daniel 11. After being unable to subdue Egypt, Antichrist moves back to his seat of power in the north, and then comes against Israel and the holy covenant. Going to Daniel 11:31 is when you see Antichrist, having made league with Israel, and then works deceitfully, finally invades and pollutes the sanctuary, and that is when the great tribulation (5th seal) begins.
There's a 42 month reign.. but it will be cut short.
During this time, according to Daniel 11, Jordan (Ammon, Edom, and Moab) splits from Antichrist, probably having helped Antichrist invade Israel (and Jesus deals with them personally later), and Antichrist has to invade Egypt again and reign in Cush and Put, but then distressing news comes from the east and north and Antichrist comes back to Jerusalem.
I believe it's the 2 witnesses and he returns to Jerusalem to shut them up.
Then Jesus comes.
Then it's the wrath of God

It is , how?

Jesus describes great tribulation beginning after the Abomination of desolation. That instantly makes it no longer than 3.5 years.
Jesus also says it will be cut short.

I’ll have to give that vision more attention




Yes

But rev 7 hints no return nor rev 14

It’s hidden

have to compare scripture to scripture. Jesus says He comes when the sun and moon are darkened, and that's 6th seal. It can't be years after the 6th seal, but it could be the same day.

Yes


Yes I agree many Old Testament prophecies are yet to be fulfilled




Yes

Ok so if not on a white horse eventually he gets on one right?

Yeah, eventually, it's to contrast with His first entrance into Jerusalem being on a donkey, a lowly suffering servant, Here He is riding in as a king.

but He comes down on a cloud, gets a white horse later. Not sure when. Isaiah 63 doesn't say He was mounted, but at the same time, it doesn't say He was walking or traveling on a cloud or anything either, just that He is glorious, mighty to save, and His clothes are stained in blood.

So u believe the wedding supper takes place on earth


Why is it funny and why do u believe it’s in earth?




Yea I’ll have to do more searching on this part


I can see what your saying



Nice


Seems so

But they ask him what are the signs in Matt 24


Yea something doesn’t sit well here

What exactly? Jesus said that the sun and moon go dark and they see Him coming on the clouds in Matthew 24.
if it's not for years after the sun and moon go dark, then Jesus was lying.

But Jesus is in heaven in Revelation 7 being worshiped.

so what alternative are you left with? a 3rd coming? Jesus went down and then came back up and then comes down again on a white horse and the saints don't even worship Him while they worship God the Father on the throne?

Thanks fir your views

 

[Jamdoc]

Jamdoc how it going


Where do u see in scripture when these scriptures takes place on your timeline of prophecy?

1 cor 15:51-53
1 thes 4:13-18

Do u believe they are related?

Absolutely. Take the entire context of 1 Corinthians 15, Paul is talking about the resurrection and rapture, they take place in tandem, the resurrection first then the rapture, In Old Testament prophecy it was understood that there was a resurrection, but what about the people who were still alive at that time? what happens to them? Paul clarifies that with an instant transformation to a perfected body, and caught up to be with the Lord.

and note that in both of those contexts, involve the 2nd coming

1 Corinthians 15

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

I want to stress here, Paul is not talking about a resurrection before the second coming, Paul is talking about the resurrection at His second coming.

Okay continuing on

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Emphasizing that this actually comes before the end, some people want to say that the resurrection is right before the GWT judgement, but it's earlier than that, the 2nd resurrection is then, but you want to be a part of the first resurrection.

Moving on

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

So, for all the amills, there is a reign of Christ after His return, until death is destroyed, Millennial Kingdom.


Okay and 1 Thessalonians 4

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So this is not a rapture before the second coming it's a rapture at the second coming.

Now with that established, do you still want to believe that Revelation 19 is the second coming? Where's the blood on His robes come from if this is not referring to Isaiah 63 where He comes from Edom and it's the blood of His enemies? Do remember that Jesus said it will be normal life going on when He returns, and the trumpets and bowls are anything but normal life.

Here's the facts:
1. The resurrection and rapture happen at the second coming.
2. The second coming comes at the end of the tribulation of those days
3. The second coming comes during a period of normal life for those in the world, meaning it can't be after the wrath of God.

With those things all in mind.

the first 4 seals have to be pre 70th week, they destroy the current world order, but time passes after them where there's rebuilding, a return to normal Antichrist is a big part of that. That's that more "peaceful" false messianic reign, the first 3.5 years, the first 4 seals must happen before this, otherwise you don't have normal life. After the 3.5 years, the abomination of desolation, and great tribulation, the 5th seal, and mark of the beast. Now, for those not persecuted, life will go on as normal. The picture of Noah and Lot are multi-layered. Not only was Jesus talking about the condition of wickedness in the world, the violence of Noah's days, and the homosexuality of Lot's days, not only was Jesus talking about the planting and sowing and marrying and giving in marriage, so normal life for the world...
But Jesus was also showing a picture of those who would be saved. Lot in particular was mocked when he tried to warn people, and the men of the town threatened him. Lot was persecuted, Lot is a picture of believers in the end times, persecuted but ultimately saved before the wrath of God.
Finally Christ was painting a picture, that as soon as the righteous were taken to safety.. it was the wrath of God, no gap period as I've seen some teach. It's the same day.

Luke 17

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

So.. that in mind..

what do you think here?

Revelation 6

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

using the pictures Jesus gave of Noah and Lot, wouldn't the righteous be taken to safety just before this happens?
We see evidence of it in Revelation 7.

Remember, 5th seal, the saints cry out how long will they have to wait until God judges the world and avenges them. God doesn't tell them it's already happening, God tells them to wait awhile.

6th seal, announcement of the wrath of God.

Could I peg a date for it? absolutely not.
But when it happens it will be overt. Not secret.

 

[Leaf473]

Thank you for the question.

1 Thess 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

These passages pretty much summed up Paul's narrative and leads the diligent scholar to understand that only those who are not in Christ will be caught off guard by the coming of the Lord. Verse 3 highlights those who are deceived with false peace and safety. The key that unlocks the text is understanding who is giving the false promise of peace and safety. Remember this is the time of the great tribulation, the church is proscribed and in hiding (those that are caught will be forced to take the mark or beheaded), so the only left to make such a public proclamation of peace and safety to allay the fears of the world population is no one else than the FALSE PROPHET!

Notice the contrast between those that fall for the lie in v-3 and those in v-4? In v4, Paul was clearly referring to believers. The reference to the "children of light and of the day" corroborates with John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

To put it simply - there are two categories of people - the world and those in Christ. The believers know that the Lord is coming (even though they don't know the exact day or time) but know of a surety that he's coming. On the other hand, the people of the world have no clue about the Lord's return. Most likely their concern over the calamitous events of those days will be explained away as natural events that will pass away, and life will return to normal - just like life is seemingly returning back to normal after the COVID lockdowns. That's what the false promise of peace and safety is all about.

I hear what you're saying. At the same time, a different Thief in the night passage from Luke 12

But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what hour the thief was coming, he would have watched, and not allowed his house to be broken into. 40 Therefore be ready also, for the Son of Man is coming in an hour that you don’t expect him.

I grew up with the idea that Jesus could come this afternoon. That still sounds the most right to me, to be honest. If Jesus comes at the end of the Great tribulation, and if the events in Revelation are reasonably literal, then there's no way he could come in the next 24 hours. The locust plague alone lasts 5 months.

So keeping with the master and thief metaphor above, there's no reason to lock your door tonight. There's no way Jesus can come tonight.

Let your waist be dressed and your lamps burning. 36 Be like men watching for their lord, when he returns from the wedding feast; that when he comes and knocks, they may immediately open to him.

Peace be with you all!

 

[Leaf473]

Why would one quit their job for any reason listed in Scripture concerning eschatology? If you told you boss you are quitting in two weeks because of a prophecied event, and it never happens, how does that look?

If you have to flee, won't all be fleeing from war at the same time? Fleeing only deals with those living near Jerusalem.

Pretty sure no one will have to quit premature. One day they won't show up for work, because they are no longer on earth, or just leave their dead body at work for the lost to dispose of.

I once had a job where I could have been dead for several hours and no one would have noticed any difference

 

[Jamdoc]

I hear what you're saying. At the same time, a different Thief in the night passage from Luke 12

But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what hour the thief was coming, he would have watched, and not allowed his house to be broken into. 40 Therefore be ready also, for the Son of Man is coming in an hour that you don’t expect him.

I grew up with the idea that Jesus could come this afternoon. That still sounds the most right to me, to be honest. If Jesus comes at the end of the Great tribulation, and if the events in Revelation are reasonably literal, then there's no way he could come in the next 24 hours. The locust plague alone lasts 5 months.

So keeping with the master and thief metaphor above, there's no reason to lock your door tonight. There's no way Jesus can come tonight.

Let your waist be dressed and your lamps burning. 36 Be like men watching for their lord, when he returns from the wedding feast; that when he comes and knocks, they may immediately open to him.

Peace be with you all!

Except the locust plague isn't great tribulation.

Let's do some critical thinking.

Armageddon is a known date to Satan, that's why he moves his troops up to Armageddon and times it correctly, you don't move an army and camp them out in the wilderness waiting for "non man knows the day or the hour", That's a logistical nightmare. So Satan, and by extension the antichrist and false prophet, know the day that Jesus will be back. Satan knows scripture better than any of us.
Why doesn't Satan have his army at the mount of olives and try to intercept Jesus when he comes?

Because of logistics nightmare of trying to camp troops in a spot for an unknown amount of time. But God has promised to gather the nations in Armageddon, the valley of decision, and has given the exact date from the Abomination of desolation, which Satan will most clearly know out of any of us when that happens.

So Armageddon, is not the coming at the end of the tribulation There's no darkening of the sun and moon in Revelation 19 either. the tribes of the earth aren't mourning.

Instead they're ready to fight.

The mourning and wailing and sun and moon darkening happened back at the 6th seal Nobody was prepared for that. That's the unknown date.

 

[dfw69]

Definitely. it's very overt, there's no secret to be covered up as most pretrib believe, that you have to hide the rapture and claim it's alien abduction or anything like that. 1 Thessalonians 4, Matthew 24, it's very overt, noisy, and people know what has happened, and in Revelation 6, they are very conscious and know that wrath comes next.

I’m my view both the rapture and the 2 coming are overt

Matthew does show jesus coming to earth and gathers the elect with one trumpet call sending out angels …. But that’s gathering the wheat into his barn

There is no mentioning of a rapture in Matthew as described by Paul

Paul connected the two over and over and over. 1 Thessalonians 4,

In 1 thes 4 he mentions the rapture with on mentioning of the 2 coming nor does he mentions the signs of the second coming

2 Thessalonians 2,

Mentions his appearance for a people that belong to him and mentioned the blessed hope which is referring to the rapture

No mention of the day of the lord or sign here as well

even 1 Corinthians 15, the order of the resurrection, "then they that are Christ's at His coming"

Yes another rapture scripture

Not the second coming again no mentioning of the signs nor day of the lord

Titus 2:13, is the blessed hope a pretribulation rapture? No it's the 2nd coming.

I disagree we have the hope of salvation the Redeeming of our bodies

nope, that's part of the problem. You don't see the 6th seal as being the same signs that Jesus gave as happening "immediately after the tribulation"

Yes I do and I agree it refers to the same thing but… that the signs Jesus mentioned and the six seal are the same thing


But Jesus went back to referring to after the tribulation of those days he just mentioned to the disciples before the great trib ..he is not talking about the great trib though he did mention the AOD and Jerusalem fleeing

He went back to the tribulation of the false Messianic age

The reason is because in rev 6 it’s a specific sign to announce the wrath
Jesus does not return till after great tribulation

So immediately after the tribulation of the false messianic age the sun moon and stars are effected which is the 6th seal sign takes place

6th seal is the wrath which includes 7 trumpets and 7 bowls

Then the AOD takes place
Great tribulation takes place and then the return of jesus comes to gather those that are scattered

if the 6th seal is the end of the great tribulation,

It’s not though
Jesus mentions 2 time periods 2 tribulations …

the first tribulation is here
Matt 24:4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Here is where this verse should be inserted because this is what Jesus meant …
Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’


The second trib also known as the great tribulation is here Matt 24:15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house.18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

Then to finish it off Matt 24:30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven,with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call,and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

then that means only the stuff that happened before the 6th seal can be considered great tribulation,

Not if he was referring to a lesser tribulation when he said immediately after the tribulation of those days

and seeing Revelation as 2 parallel narratives, you get a pattern of tribulation, deliverance, saints in heaven, wrath of God.

Please elaborate this in a possible timeline

Consider for a moment this: the 4 horsemen are pre 70th week events, Antichrist needs to have power and authority before he can enter into any kind of international covenant after all.
So first 4 seals
then
Antichrist gains power, returns world to a new normalcy, confirms the covenant with Israel (you can see this in Daniel 11:21), and so... 3.5 years of false Messianic era, though the Antichrist is at war with Egypt at this time according to Daniel 11. After being unable to subdue Egypt, Antichrist moves back to his seat of power in the north, and then comes against Israel and the holy covenant. Going to Daniel 11:31 is when you see Antichrist, having made league with Israel, and then works deceitfully, finally invades and pollutes the sanctuary, and that is when the great tribulation (5th seal) begins.
There's a 42 month reign.. but it will be cut short.
During this time, according to Daniel 11, Jordan (Ammon, Edom, and Moab) splits from Antichrist, probably having helped Antichrist invade Israel (and Jesus deals with them personally later), and Antichrist has to invade Egypt again and reign in Cush and Put, but then distressing news comes from the east and north and Antichrist comes back to Jerusalem.
I believe it's the 2 witnesses and he returns to Jerusalem to shut them up.
Then Jesus comes.
Then it's the wrath of God


Jesus describes great tribulation beginning after the Abomination of desolation. That instantly makes it no longer than 3.5 years.
Jesus also says it will be cut short.

Yes but this all crumbles down when you realize that he confirms the covenant (whatever that means I don’t know?) for 1 whole week (7years) but then it says in the middle of that week he breaks covenant and sets up the AOD

In the middle of the week means 3 and 1/2 years after he confirms the covenant

Yeah, eventually, it's to contrast with His first entrance into Jerusalem being on a donkey, a lowly suffering servant, Here He is riding in as a king.

Yes

but He comes down on a cloud, gets a white horse later. Not sure when. Isaiah 63 doesn't say He was mounted, but at the same time, it doesn't say He was walking or traveling on a cloud or anything either, just that He is glorious, mighty to save, and His clothes are stained in blood.

in rev, the 6th seal is open and one sign is the clouds disappear, then it says in another verse he returns with the clouds so he could come down on a horse with the clouds to bring back rain

Yes because he treads the winepress of the wrath of god and other things you mentioned

What exactly?

The wedding supper is mentioned in rev 19:9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this:Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!”And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

This is in heaven

Rev19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come,gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

This great supper is not the wedding feast it’s a supper for vultures

Jesus said that the sun and moon go dark and they see Him coming on the clouds in Matthew 24.
if it's not for years after the sun and moon go dark, then Jesus was lying.

Not if after the trib refers to the lesser trib

But Jesus is in heaven in Revelation 7 being worshiped.

so what alternative are you left with? a 3rd coming? Jesus went down and then came back up and then comes down again on a white horse and the saints don't even worship Him while they worship God the Father on the throne?

I mean he can go up and down as many times as he please at this point

 

[dfw69]

Now with that established, do you still want to believe that Revelation 19 is the second coming?

I believe it describes what he does when he comes to earth

Where's the blood on His robes come from if this is not referring to Isaiah 63 where He comes from Edom and it's the blood of His enemies?

From treading the winepress
Armageddon
From all the slain

Do remember that Jesus said it will be normal life going on when He returns, and the trumpets and bowls are anything but normal life.

Yes normal life until the 6th seal takes place

Here's the facts:
1. The resurrection and rapture happen at the second coming.

Not how I see it

2. The second coming comes at the end of the tribulation of those days

Yes but after the lesser trib …the 6 th seal takes place

After the AOD and great trib …he returns

3. The second coming comes during a period of normal life for those in the world, meaning it can't be after the wrath of God.

Most definitely after the wrath , the wrath is upon those who have the mark who worship the beast after the AOD and great trib ….he comes after great tribulation

the first 4 seals have to be pre 70th week, they destroy the current world order, but time passes after them where there's rebuilding, a return to normal Antichrist is a big part of that. That's that more "peaceful" false messianic reign, the first 3.5 years, the first 4 seals must happen before this, otherwise you don't have normal life. After the 3.5 years, the abomination of desolation, and great tribulation, the 5th seal, and mark of the beast. Now, for those not persecuted, life will go on as normal. The picture of Noah and Lot are multi-layered. Not only was Jesus talking about the condition of wickedness in the world, the violence of Noah's days, and the homosexuality of Lot's days, not only was Jesus talking about the planting and sowing and marrying and giving in marriage, so normal life for the world...
But Jesus was also showing a picture of those who would be saved. Lot in particular was mocked when he tried to warn people, and the men of the town threatened him. Lot was persecuted, Lot is a picture of believers in the end times, persecuted but ultimately saved before the wrath of God.
Finally Christ was painting a picture, that as soon as the righteous were taken to safety.. it was the wrath of God, no gap period as I've seen some teach. It's the same day.

Interesting view but I think it’s more simple

There is a gap just before Jesus returns
When the world rejoices over the death of the 2 witnesses even giving gifts and so there may be a brief time of the feeling of victory

what do you think here?

Revelation 6
using the pictures Jesus gave of Noah and Lot, wouldn't the righteous be taken to safety just before this happens?
We see evidence of it in Revelation 7.

144,000 Jews are sealed from wrath…
The rest of the world will be caught unaware at the 6th seal

Remember, 5th seal, the saints cry out how long will they have to wait until God judges the world and avenges them. God doesn't tell them it's already happening, God tells them to wait awhile.

That’s because it happens at the start of the 6th seal

6th seal, announcement of the wrath of God.

Yes but not his coming

 

[Jamdoc]

I’m my view both the rapture and the 2 coming are overt

Matthew does show jesus coming to earth and gathers the elect with one trumpet call sending out angels …. But that’s gathering the wheat into his barn

There is no mentioning of a rapture in Matthew as described by Paul





In 1 thes 4 he mentions the rapture with on mentioning of the 2 coming nor does he mentions the signs of the second coming


Mentions his appearance for a people that belong to him and mentioned the blessed hope which is referring to the rapture

No mention of the day of the lord or sign here as well



Yes another rapture scripture

Not the second coming again no mentioning of the signs nor day of the lord



I disagree we have the hope of salvation the Redeeming of our bodies




Yes I do and I agree it refers to the same thing but… that the signs Jesus mentioned and the six seal are the same thing


But Jesus went back to referring to after the tribulation of those days he just mentioned to the disciples before the great trib ..he is not talking about the great trib though he did mention the AOD and Jerusalem fleeing

He went back to the tribulation of the false Messianic age

The reason is because in rev 6 it’s a specific sign to announce the wrath
Jesus does not return till after great tribulation

So immediately after the tribulation of the false messianic age the sun moon and stars are effected which is the 6th seal sign takes place

6th seal is the wrath which includes 7 trumpets and 7 bowls

Then the AOD takes place
Great tribulation takes place and then the return of jesus comes to gather those that are scattered





It’s not though
Jesus mentions 2 time periods 2 tribulations …

the first tribulation is here
Matt 24:4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Here is where this verse should be inserted because this is what Jesus meant …
Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’


The second trib also known as the great tribulation is here Matt 24:15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house.18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

Then to finish it off Matt 24:30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven,with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call,and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.



Not if he was referring to a lesser tribulation when he said immediately after the tribulation of those days


Please elaborate this in a possible timeline




Yes but this all crumbles down when you realize that he confirms the covenant (whatever that means I don’t know?) for 1 whole week (7years) but then it says in the middle of that week he breaks covenant and sets up the AOD

In the middle of the week means 3 and 1/2 years after he confirms the covenant




Yes



in rev, the 6th seal is open and one sign is the clouds disappear, then it says in another verse he returns with the clouds so he could come down on a horse with the clouds to bring back rain

Yes because he treads the winepress of the wrath of god and other things you mentioned




The wedding supper is mentioned in rev 19:9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this:Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!”And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

This is in heaven

Rev19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come,gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

This great supper is not the wedding feast it’s a supper for vultures







Not if after the trib refers to the lesser trib



I mean he can go up and down as many times as he please at this point

Context of Matthew 24 has Jesus referring back to the great tribulation.
Jesus describes none of the trumpets or bowls.

Why?
Because His audience was believers, and He was answering the question of signs of His coming.

If He comes before any of the trumpets and bowls, then the trumpets and bowls are not signs of His coming, and are irrelevant to believers since they will not be here for them.
He only mentions up to the 6th seal.


and come on man.

1 Thessalonians 4, Paul says Jesus comes down from heaven, that's the second coming.
2 Thessalonians 2 Paul says by the coming

It's clear that Paul linked it. Pretribulationists unlink them, but that is not biblical.

 

[dfw69]

Context of Matthew 24 has Jesus referring back to the great tribulation.
Jesus describes none of the trumpets or bowls.

Why?
Because His audience was believers, and He was answering the question of signs of His coming.

If He comes before any of the trumpets and bowls, then the trumpets and bowls are not signs of His coming, and are irrelevant to believers since they will not be here for them.
He only mentions up to the 6th seal.

Hey man how’s it going?

So let me see if I understand you correctly

Matt 24 Jesus comes to rapture the saints to heaven

Then he rules from Jerusalem and the trumpet and bowls takes place while he is ruling in Jerusalem?

The two witnesses already finished with their testimony?
The AOD took place already ?
All before the 6th seal ?

and come on man.

1 Thessalonians 4, Paul says Jesus comes down from heaven, that's the second coming.
2 Thessalonians 2 Paul says by the coming

It's clear that Paul linked it. Pretribulationists unlink them, but that is not biblical.

Im sorry but I’m pretrib
I definitely see two comings
one in the air for his children
one to rule on earth

these 2 events take place many years apart from each other

 

[Jamdoc]

Hey man how’s it going?

So let me see if I understand you correctly

Matt 24 Jesus comes to rapture the saints to heaven

Then he rules from Jerusalem and the trumpet and bowls takes place while he is ruling in Jerusalem?

The two witnesses already finished with their testimony?
The AOD took place already ?
All before the 6th seal ?

No. He comes down from heaven, the saints are resurrected and raptured, then Jesus goes south to tread out the winepress of His wrath while the trumpets and bowls take place. I'm not sure how long this phase takes.

The 2 witnesses die 3 days before Jesus returns (great earthquake, and a resurrection and rapture). The first part of Revelation 11 is not chronological, it actually is part of the same explanatory out of chronology segment as Revelation 10. Chapter breaks are not Inspired after all.
There's not 3.5 years between the 6th and 7th trumpets.

Im sorry but I’m pretrib
I definitely see two comings
one in the air for his children
one to rule on earth

these 2 events take place many years apart from each other

 

[Leaf473]

Except the locust plague isn't great tribulation.

Let's do some critical thinking.

Armageddon is a known date to Satan, that's why he moves his troops up to Armageddon and times it correctly, you don't move an army and camp them out in the wilderness waiting for "non man knows the day or the hour", That's a logistical nightmare. So Satan, and by extension the antichrist and false prophet, know the day that Jesus will be back. Satan knows scripture better than any of us.
Why doesn't Satan have his army at the mount of olives and try to intercept Jesus when he comes?

Because of logistics nightmare of trying to camp troops in a spot for an unknown amount of time. But God has promised to gather the nations in Armageddon, the valley of decision, and has given the exact date from the Abomination of desolation, which Satan will most clearly know out of any of us when that happens.

So Armageddon, is not the coming at the end of the tribulation There's no darkening of the sun and moon in Revelation 19 either. the tribes of the earth aren't mourning.

Instead they're ready to fight.

The mourning and wailing and sun and moon darkening happened back at the 6th seal Nobody was prepared for that. That's the unknown date.

Well... The locust plague is before the second coming in Revelation 14 / 19 isn't it?

 

[dfw69]

No. He comes down from heaven, the saints are resurrected and raptured,

But this is not the rapture there is no mentioning of a rapture here

Matthew 24:31
Is the gathering of the scattered elect after the tribulations of those days

In the description of the rapture, 2 trumpets sound , a resurrection takes place and change takes place putting on glorifying body’s with no mention of angels going forth to gather us … it says the lord himself comes down from heaven

then Jesus goes south to tread out the winepress of His wrath while the trumpets and bowls take place. I'm not sure how long this phase takes.

Jesus rides a white horse and the armies of heaven are with him to face the beast and false prophet and to tread the winepress


Here is the description of them …notice John says heaven is open and there before me (still in heaven)

11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True.With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood,and his name is the Word of God.14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: king of kings and lord of lords


Then the call of the birds to gather implies the treading has not yet taken place ……


17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair,“Come,gather together for the great supper of God,18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people free and slave, great and small.”

Then the antichrist and false prophet gather to war against the rider and his armies from heaven ……..they are captured and thrown into the lake of fire and are not even judged … the Passover judgement to their detags

19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Then the birds eat the armies

21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse,and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

As for the dipped in blood clothing ….
It says he is dressed with it ( a blood Stain clothing ) perhaps he is clothed with the clothing when he was crucified ?

It’s a thought ,what you think? It’s possible?

 

[Jamdoc]

Well... The locust plague is before the second coming in Revelation 14 / 19 isn't it?

No, as I said earlier, split Revelation into 2 halves Chapters 1-11, and Chapters 12-22.

Otherwise you have Jesus taking the Kingdom at the 7th trumpet.. and as His first act as King of the Earth... is to give it back to Satan so taht Satan can give his power and authority to the beast.

It also means you would have Jesus on the clouds at the 6th seal, and Revelation 14, so twice on the clouds, the 144000 twice, and 2 great tribulations and 2 wraths of God.

 

[Jamdoc]

But this is not the rapture there is no mentioning of a rapture here

Matthew 24:31
Is the gathering of the scattered elect after the tribulations of those days

The gathering is the rapture, Paul refers to it in 2 Thessalonians 2:1.

In the description of the rapture, 2 trumpets sound , a resurrection takes place and change takes place putting on glorifying body’s with no mention of angels going forth to gather us … it says the lord himself comes down from heaven


Jesus rides a white horse and the armies of heaven are with him to face the beast and false prophet and to tread the winepress

It says HE treadeth the winepress, not we treadeth.

and He already had been treading the winepress, that's why His clothes are dipped in blood, Armageddon is just the final triumph, the end of a campaign.

Here is the description of them …notice John says heaven is open and there before me (still in heaven)

Yeah, he sees the vision of Christ on Earth.
If Christ had been in heaven, they would have worshiped Him as they do in Revelation 7.

Then the call of the birds to gather implies the treading has not yet taken place ……


17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair,“Come,gather together for the great supper of God,18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people free and slave, great and small.”

Then the antichrist and false prophet gather to war against the rider and his armies from heaven ……..they are captured and thrown into the lake of fire and are not even judged … the Passover judgement to their detags

19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Then the birds eat the armies

21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse,and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

As for the dipped in blood clothing ….
It says he is dressed with it ( a blood Stain clothing ) perhaps he is clothed with the clothing when he was crucified ?

It’s a thought ,what you think? It’s possible?

No because Isaiah 63 defines who's blood that is.

 

[dfw69]

The gathering is the rapture, Paul refers to it in 2 Thessalonians 2:1.

Yes Paul refer to a gathering of the church

But again you cannot assume that gathering and this gathering is the same gathering without the specific details describe to connect them

If one truly studies the descriptions then it’s clear that they are two different descriptions describing 2 different events taking place at two different times with 2 different destinations

It says HE treadeth the winepress, not we treadeth.

I don’t expect to tread the winepress but perhaps the gt saints will they are worthy they gave their life for him

and He already had been treading the winepress, that's why His clothes are dipped in blood, Armageddon is just the final triumph, the end of a campaign.

When and where shows him treading the winepress before rev19?

Yeah, he sees the vision of Christ on Earth.
If Christ had been in heaven, they would have worshiped Him as they do in Revelation 7.

read carefully…rev 19:11 …I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True.

Do you see what John is saying? He sees heaven standing open and there before him was Jesus on a White Horse

There , before him, in heaven

If Jesus is already on earth then so was John but that’s not the case

No because Isaiah 63 defines who's blood that is.

But John sees Jesus is heaven before he descends to battle against the AC and FP

So it seems to me he’s dressed with his old clothing that he wore at the cross . the women never changed his linen so that means he arose with it on …. They went into the tomb it was empty….. thanks for the revelation

Also note , his blood stained clothes will mingle with the blood of his slain … doesn’t it sound like some Old Testament ritual?

 

[Jamdoc]

Yes Paul refer to a gathering of the church

But again you cannot assume that gathering and this gathering is the same gathering without the specific details describe to connect them

If one truly studies the descriptions then it’s clear that they are two different descriptions describing 2 different events taking place at two different times with 2 different destinations



I don’t expect to tread the winepress but perhaps the gt saints will they are worthy they gave their life for him


When and where shows him treading the winepress before rev19?

Revelation 14, Isaiah 63.

Most specifically Isaiah 63 has Him tread the winepress alone, not with anyone else.

read carefully…rev 19:11 …I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True.

Do you see what John is saying? He sees heaven standing open and there before him was Jesus on a White Horse

There , before him, in heaven

No, the heavens were opened up while John was in Heaven, that means John can see outside of heaven, see Earth, and there on Earth, before him that is, in his sight, was Jesus on a white horse.

If Jesus was in heaven at that time, they would have worshiped Him along with God on the Throne.
They worship both, specifically designating both God on the Throne, and the Lamb in Revelation 7.
But they do not worship the Lamb in heaven in Revelation 19.

Zechariah 9 God blows the trumpet, raises His people up like ensigns above the land, and then heads south
Isaiah 34 the day of the Lord happens, the heavens roll back like a scroll, and the Lord goes to Idumea to bathe His sword in blood, Idumea is south of the Mount of Olives
Isaiah 63 Jesus is coming from Edom stained in blood, coming from the south of the Mount of Olives.

Revelation 19 if this is Jesus coming from Heaven He descends and then goes to Armageddon, which is north of the Mount of Olives

One of these things is not like the other.

But John sees Jesus is heaven before he descends to battle against the AC and FP

So it seems to me he’s dressed with his old clothing that he wore at the cross . the women never changed his linen so that means he arose with it on …. They went into the tomb it was empty….. thanks for the revelation

Also note , his blood stained clothes will mingle with the blood of his slain … doesn’t it sound like some Old Testament ritual?

I don't think the clothes Jesus wore on the cross would be "glorious" appearing.

Isaiah 63

1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.

Until you can answer Isaiah 63 with your position I think it's pointless to go on.

Key details of Isaiah 63, Jesus says He tread the winepress alone, if Revelation 19 is the second coming, then Jesus is not alone, he has an uncountable multitude of saints and angels with Him.

 

[dfw69]

Most specifically Isaiah 63 has Him tread the winepress alone, not with anyone else.

Ok

No, the heavens were opened up while John was in Heaven, that means John can see outside of heaven, see Earth, and there on Earth, before him that is, in his sight, was Jesus on a white horse.

I don’t believe that’s not what John meant …why didn’t he mention looking down or seeing Jesus on earth? No it says before him as in ..in his presence ..

If Jesus was in heaven at that time, they would have worshiped Him along with God on the Throne.
They worship both, specifically designating both God on the Throne, and the Lamb in Revelation 7.
But they do not worship the Lamb in heaven in Revelation 19.

Jesus is still in heaven ..you cannot have a weddings supper without the groom


7 Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.
8 Fine linen, bright and clean,
was given her to wear.”
(Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)

9 Then the angel said to me,“Write this Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

Zechariah 9 God blows the trumpet, raises His people up like ensigns above the land, and then heads south
Isaiah 34 the day of the Lord happens, the heavens roll back like a scroll, and the Lord goes to Idumea to bathe His sword in blood, Idumea is south of the Mount of Olives
Isaiah 63 Jesus is coming from Edom stained in blood, coming from the south of the Mount of Olives.

Yes but the assembly with the armies of Heaven takes place in Heaven

Revelation 19 if this is Jesus coming from Heaven He descends and then goes to Armageddon, which is north of the Mount of Olives

One of these things is not like the other.

Armageddon is just the place where they gather but then they descend to Jerusalem and kill the 2 witnesses

They get the victory over the 2 witnesses and send gift to one another .. they marry one another and there is great rejoicing as if the victory is won

Then the antichrist may then go to edom and Moab to finish off the rest of Israel where Israel is being nourished

I don't think the clothes Jesus wore on the cross would be "glorious" appearing.

He appears as a god not as a man his eyes are as flames his face shines like the sun so yea it will be awesome

Until you can answer Isaiah 63 with your position I think it's pointless to go on.

Key details of Isaiah 63, Jesus says He tread the winepress alone, if Revelation 19 is the second coming, then Jesus is not alone, he has an uncountable multitude of saints and angels with Him.

Let’s me take a look and I’ll get back to you …peace

I found an answer for you …as I was reading I notice something … the scripture goes like this…..

Isaiah 63:3 “I have trodden the winepress alone;
from the nations no one was with me.

And this one

Isaiah 63:5 I looked, but there was no one to help,
I was appalled that no one gave support;

So do you see what I see?

He’s referring to the living nations on earth to help him fight against the antichrist and FP

He’s looking for allies to go to war with him

Not that he needs them to help but the offer is there …. But it’s sad that no one was able to give support

This shows the position the world will be when he arrives , not in his favor