Rapture Believers, question about post-rapture faith

[Jamdoc]

It says God, not the Father, just God. Father, Son/Word, and Holy Spirit are one God.

Revelation 7

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

It's one God, but 3 persons, and Revelation 7 makes this distinction on purpose that there are 2 persons (really all 3 but the Holy Spirit is indwelling) being worshiped.

Revelation 19 doesn't have Jesus riding down from heaven on a white horse. Jesus comes down from heaven on the clouds, it is repeated through the old testament and new testament, that it is on the clouds.
Not a flying horse.
What Revelation shows is Jesus on a white horse...... already covered in blood.
He was not stained in blood in heaven, but on Earth.

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

So if you believe in a pre-tribulation rapture and that the reason for said rapture is God removing the church to spare them from wrath and deal with Israel in the final days. This question is for you.

That's a very brief synopsis of course, but I'm trying to establish the basis of my question. So God, Jesus raptures the church and now He begins to deal with the Jews.

QUESTION:
Does this mean that after the rapture, Gentiles are no longer able to be saved?

If God removes Gentile believers (the Church) so that he may begin to deal with the Jews, does scripture teach, does your denomination or theology teach that after the rapture, God will still grant salvation to Gentiles? Or post-rapture, is His focus solely on the Jews and their salvation?

Salvation is always possible until one recieves the number on their forhead or hand (the number i'd rather not say)

 

[Think...]

The vials of God's wrath are poured out during the great tribulation.

Nope, nope, nope.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Matthew 24:29 says after the tribulation of those days - not after the great tribulation of those days.

It's not needed. Matthew 24:3 makes very clear that the rest of that chapter prior to verse 29 IS describing the Great Tribulation.

"Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
Matthew 24:3

Matthew 24:29-30a is the sixth seal event, the sign of the Son of Man in heaven.

So many insist on the events of Revelation having a definite time/date, but Scripture does not distinguish them that way at all. John relates what he sees in vision. He is not relating specific, detailed prophecy of sequential events.

Some have already happened, some have not, but none of them distinguish themselves in Scripture as having a specific date. To say that they all have to happen a certain way, in a certain order, at certain times is just a baseless argument with no Sound Doctrine to support it. Revelation is a book of signs and symbols, just as Jesus tells us it is in Revelation 1:1.

There is no Pre-Trib Rapture. And selling such heresy to inexperienced Christians is very fragmenting to their faith and disjointing to their structural understanding of Scripture.

NONE of the end times passages in the Bible support such a theory. None of them.

 

[Jamdoc]

Nope, nope, nope.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

It's not needed. Matthew 24:3 makes very clear that the rest of that chapter prior to verse 29 IS describing the Great Tribulation.

"Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
Matthew 24:3

So many insist on the events of Revelation having a definite time/date, but Scripture does not distinguish them that way at all. John relates what he sees in vision. He is not relating specific, detailed prophecy of sequential events.

Some have already happened, some have not, but none of them distinguish themselves in Scripture as having a specific date. To say that they all have to happen a certain way, in a certain order, at certain times is just a baseless argument with no Sound Doctrine to support it. Revelation is a book of signs and symbols, just as Jesus tells us it is in Revelation 1:1.

There is no Pre-Trib Rapture. And selling such heresy to inexperienced Christians is very fragmenting to their faith and disjointing to their structural understanding of Scripture.

NONE of the end times passages in the Bible support such a theory. None of them.

It's consistent through all scripture that God comes down from heaven to deliver the righteous OUT of a time of trouble and persecution and war, and then comes the wrath of God as recompense.

People want to unhitch the old testament from the new and read the new in a vacuum, and say "oh that's just the Jews" for the Old Testament, and "oh, well these people in Daniel 7 and Revelation that go through tribulation, that's these *other* Christians, but not me"

and it's largely based on this theory of "tribulation saints" people getting saved after the rapture.
But I don't read that in the bible at all. I don't read that people get saved after Christ returns, and Paul equated the rapture to when Christ returns, Jesus equated the rapture to when He returns, but somehow people think "oh this is different" and come up with quaint, cute idoms like "The rapture is when Jesus comes back for His bride the second coming is when Jesus comes back with His bride"

It's almost as ironic as "flat earth is growing in popularity all around the globe"

 

[Think...]

It's almost as ironic as "flat earth is growing in popularity all around the globe"

That's good. Hadn't heard that one.

Yeah, believe it or not, it's actually not so much people reading their Bible wrong, or getting crazy ideas from lack of understanding of Scripture, but the wolves who are spreading this heresy about the Pre-Trib Rapture in almost every modern mainstream church and on most mainstream TV sermons, as well as radio.

The wolves don't hide among the congregation, or wear sheep's-skin clothing, anymore; they stand boldly at the pulpits and growl and bark their dark lies and the uninitiated eat it without question.

Sadly, only so many Christians will take the time to look a bit deeper than what they are told by men in popular standing among other men.

It's only God who tells us the Truth about these things, and nobody's seeking HIS Words much these days.

God bless 'em.

 

[Jamdoc]

That's good. Hadn't heard that one.

Yeah, believe it or not, it's actually not so much people reading their Bible wrong, or getting crazy ideas from lack of understanding of Scripture, but the wolves who are spreading this heresy about the Pre-Trib Rapture in almost every modern mainstream church and on most mainstream TV sermons, as well as radio.

The wolves don't hide among the congregation, or wear sheep's-skin clothing, anymore; they stand boldly at the pulpits and growl and bark their dark lies and the uninitiated eat it without question.

Sadly, only so many Christians will take the time to look a bit deeper than what they are told by men in popular standing among other men.

It's only God who tells us the Truth about these things, and nobody's seeking HIS Words much these days.

God bless 'em.

I don't see it as a wolves in sheep's clothing issue I see it as misunderstanding the difference between the tribulation Jesus talked about, and the wrath of God. People have combined the two and not in a maliced way, but just misunderstanding.
Pastors who teach pretrib are not rubbing their hands together scheming about how they're going to mislead their flocks. They simply don't have a good understanding of what tribulation is.
I would say that all of us as Christians, have blind spots in what the bible reveals to us. For me, my blind spot is taking literally statements about the New Earth and finding them troubling, I have trouble seeing heaven/new earth as "home" when it's missing aspects of Earth that God said were good and makes me wonder why God changed His mind, and we're constantly told we're only going there by grace, that we don't belong there and don't deserve to be there.
It makes it feel less like a home and more like a foster parent, who gave you a room that was decorated for a 6 year old girl.

But that is why it is the BODY of Christ and we are all members, some people will find things in scripture that other people don't grasp, and that is intentional so that we rely on each other as a community.

 

[Think...]

I don't see it as a wolves in sheep's clothing issue I see it as misunderstanding the difference between the tribulation Jesus talked about, and the wrath of God. People have combined the two and not in a maliced way, but just misunderstanding.

Nope because nobody reads the Bible and comes to these conclusions on their own.

Pastors who teach pretrib are not rubbing their hands together scheming about how they're going to mislead their flocks. They simply don't have a good understanding of what tribulation is.

The world just isn't that innocent, sorry. These pastors are taught by Seminary/University Professors who are in on the lies, or are charged with teaching these things by those who are. And it is the SPIRIT of the message itself, the heresy from hell, that is the wolf. Even if the Pastor is not consciously aware that he is speaking lies from the pit of hell, he is sending souls to hell who believe him and die in their unbelief of the Truth.

Just as Jesus says "If you do not believe that I AM (God), you will die in your sins."
John 8:24

That's just the way it is. That's why the Bible is so adamant about us being aware of the devil's schemes. If we die in wrong-belief, we are lost. Period.

None of it is simple, innocent, misunderstanding of Scripture because there is no Scripture that even APPEARS to teach Pre-Trib. And if anybody, just like myself, reads the Bible on their own without any guidance, or misdirection, from others, they do not misunderstand the difference between the Great Trib and God's Wrath.

It doesn't happen.

Those who believe in these things ARE TAUGHT them by mainstream popular doctrine teachers. It is the same that is taught everywhere.

... we're constantly told we're only going there by grace, that we don't belong there and don't deserve to be there.

Constantly told by who? Who is constantly telling us things like that?

But that is why it is the BODY of Christ and we are all members, some people will find things in scripture that other people don't grasp, and that is intentional so that we rely on each other as a community.

No, I'm sorry. That's not the way the Bible works at all.

You need to take a closer look at 1 John 2:27.

The Bible is the final word on everything and God doesn't one bit expect us to learn it from others who are mistaken, or have been blinded by wolves and blind guides. Churches are about the last place a True Christian should be at this point in history. And that only sounds harsh if you are completely blind to the reality of the state of the Christian world at present and you have a very poor grasp of Scripture.

 

[Jamdoc]

Nope because nobody reads the Bible and comes to these conclusions on their own.

The world just isn't that innocent, sorry. These pastors are taught by Seminary/University Professors who are in on the lies, or are charged with teaching these things by those who are. And it is the SPIRIT of the message itself, the heresy from hell, that is the wolf. Even if the Pastor is not consciously aware that he is speaking lies from the pit of hell, he is sending souls to hell who believe him and die in their unbelief of the Truth.

Just as Jesus says "If you do not believe that I AM (God), you will die in your sins."
John 8:24

That's just the way it is. That's why the Bible is so adamant about us being aware of the devil's schemes. If we die in wrong-belief, we are lost. Period.

I don't think pretribulationism is a damnable heresy. It is almost entirely just misunderstanding the difference between tribulation and wrath. Most pretrib would agree we're expected to weather persecution in faith, they'll say things like "we go through tribulations but not THE tribulation". and The difference in what they understand and what I understand is really not that great, it's not a huge schism. Post trib actually has a similar misunderstanding and some funny ideas namely hyperliteral interpretation of the Day of the Lord being a single 24 hour period and they start allegorizing passages about the wrath of God trying to somehow work them into a "spiritualized" meaning for "all these things happen in 1 24 hour day" even though some like the 5th trumpet, are 5 months long. Or they will consider the trumpets and bowls to be not God's wrath but "tribulation" even though the trumpets and bowls all involve supernaturally caused events, not events caused by men (contrast with the first 5 seals which are acts of men), and Revelation 6:17 identifies that the wrath of God has come, and Revelation 15 identifies the bowls as the wrath of God explicitly. Ultimately if we used the same language and understanding of terminology I think we'd agree on 95% of the stuff in eschatology, but because there are misunderstandings, and you are right a lot of them are taught rather than read, but the terminology is inadvertently misused, and therefore can lead to erroneous doctrines, not with any ill intent, but just not understanding what they read.

None of it is simple, innocent, misunderstanding of Scripture because there is no Scripture that even APPEARS to teach Pre-Trib. And if anybody, just like myself, reads the Bible on their own without any guidance, or misdirection, from others, they do not misunderstand the difference between the Great Trib and God's Wrath.

Plenty of people conflate the two, all the time, they see the 7 seals as "judgements" by God and thus, the wrath of God, so they consider "tribulation" to be God's wrath.

It doesn't happen.

Those who believe in these things ARE TAUGHT them by mainstream popular doctrine teachers. It is the same that is taught everywhere.

A lot of it is taught but they do have their proof verses, such as Revelation 3:10, 1 Thessalonians 5:9, John 14:1-3, again, the problem is not understanding that God's wrath is retribution for the great tribulation not the great tribulation itself. They misunderstand what tribulation means, and they get to verses about God taking us to a place made for us, God keeping us from an hour of trial, and God not appointing us to wrath... and well, when you think that tribulation is the wrath of God.. pretrib is not that far fetched.

But in understanding the difference, you see what is taught biblically, and consistently, is pre wrath, a pattern of persecution/tribulation, God descending from heaven and delivering the faithful, followed by the indignation/wrath of God. I can show it in Psalm 18, I can show it in Isaiah 26, I can show it in Zechariah 9, Matthew 24, Revelation 6-7, Revelation 14-15, Daniel 12.

But a lot of it was because I decided to disregard teaching and just .. read.

Constantly told by who? Who is constantly telling us things like that?

Oh people like Paul, who teaches that it is by grace you are saved, not of works, lest any man should boast.
You know, just, statements that you don't deserve to go to heaven, and it's only because of how good God is that you're there are all.
Doesn't make you feel "at home", but more like..... a friend having you over to their place, oh the host is most hospitable, but it's not home.

No, I'm sorry. That's not the way the Bible works at all.

You need to take a closer look at 1 John 2:27.

The Bible is the final word on everything and God doesn't one bit expect us to learn it from others who are mistaken, or have been blinded by wolves and blind guides. Churches are about the last place a True Christian should be at this point in history. And that only sounds harsh if you are completely blind to the reality of the state of the Christian world at present and you have a very poor grasp of Scripture.

Okay well, everyone who is saved is indwelt, everyone prays for the Holy Spirit to interpret scripture for them, and for thousands of years, people have had different interpretations... of the same text, in the same book, and they all pray to the Holy Spirit to not lean on their own understanding and receive wisdom from God who gives liberally.

I can't claim that I'm right on my interpretations, I can only describe what I see in scripture, and relay the convictions that weigh on me (such as post rapture salvation being seemingly impossible, trust me I want to be wrong on that one, but it is a heavy conviction none the less).

 

[Think...]

hyperliteral interpretation of the Day of the Lord being a single 24 hour period

I could tell your beliefs were not Biblical right off the bat.

The Bible makes clear, in many passages, that the Day of the Lord IS quite definitively a single day. To claim otherwise is to open the door to multiple other heresies like the Millennium nonsense theory of Pre-Mil and others.

You are under the very common wrong-teaching and belief that the events of Revelation somehow set a sequentially identifiable standard for other aspects of the end times when they absolutely do not. Those who claim this particular event can't happen because of this bowl or that trumpet and so on and so forth are completely wrong.

All of Revelation MUST coincide with the rest of the Bible and those who believe the nonsense you are peddling reverse that order and claim that all of the rest of the Bible cannot be correct unless it aligns with the very symbolic and signified work of Revelation.

You're wrong. Period.

And the Bible is a Witness against you.

But a lot of it was because I decided to disregard teaching and just .. read.

You have failed to do that and you've misunderstood the nature of Revelation that is made plain by Jesus Himself, as well as the KJV intro to the book. You are destroyed for lack of knowledge and for lack of developing a love for the Truth.
Hosea 4:6
2 Thessalonians 2:10

everyone prays for the Holy Spirit to interpret scripture for them, and for thousands of years, people have had different interpretations... of the same text, in the same book, and they all pray to the Holy Spirit to not lean on their own understanding and receive wisdom from God who gives liberally.

Nope.

It's not people who have different interpretations of Scripture from the Holy Spirit. It is different heretical explanations that are sown into the Christian mindset by those who intend harm.

True Christians who study the Scriptures with guidance from the Holy Spirit don't all come to different interpretations based on sincere Bible study on their own. Those who study, who actually have the Holy Spirit (and many do not,) come to the same exact conclusions.

Pre-Trib is found nowhere in Scripture, The Day of Wrath - Day of the Lord is ONE single day - just as Jesus repeats The Last Day 12 times in John, nobody is OSAS, there is no Trinity and Jesus is God, ... among many other Truths that are NOT TAUGHT in modern Christendom and are found very plainly in Scripture.

 

[Timtofly]

The Bible makes clear, in many passages, that the Day of the Lord IS quite definitively a single day. To claim otherwise is to open the door to multiple other heresies like the Millennium nonsense theory of Pre-Mil and others.

To ignore the Day of the Lord is what Peter warns against.

You don't "open the door to other heresies".

You are not ignorant when declaring the Day of the Lord is a coming Millennium.

Is this how you read this verse: 2 Peter 3:8


"But, beloved, we open the door to heresies when we declare this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

Or like this:

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

Who is being ignorant and at the same time spreading heresy?

The day of the Lord cannot be both 24 hours and 1,000 years. One is the figurative day of the Lord, and the other is 1,000 years. The term Day of the Lord is figurative and does not equal 24 hours.

Neither does it make sense to say our literal 24 hour day, is actually 1,000 years to God. God has not viewed His creation in the billions of years of him waiting 1,000 years for every single 24 hour time period humans have lived. This is not a comparison between two human time frames. This is comparing the figurative Day of the Lord with the human time frame of 1,000 years. That way we know that the 1,000 years in Revelation 20 is clearly the figurative Day of the Lord mentioned throughout the Bible.

John gives us the key in Revelation 20, and many just simply refuse to accept that key.

 

[Think...]

To ignore the Day of the Lord is what Peter warns against.

You don't "open the door to other heresies".

You are not ignorant when declaring the Day of the Lord is a coming Millennium.

Is this how you read this verse: 2 Peter 3:8


"But, beloved, we open the door to heresies when we declare this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

Or like this:

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

Who is being ignorant and at the same time spreading heresy?

The day of the Lord cannot be both 24 hours and 1,000 years. One is the figurative day of the Lord, and the other is 1,000 years. The term Day of the Lord is figurative and does not equal 24 hours.

Neither does it make sense to say our literal 24 hour day, is actually 1,000 years to God. God has not viewed His creation in the billions of years of him waiting 1,000 years for every single 24 hour time period humans have lived. This is not a comparison between two human time frames. This is comparing the figurative Day of the Lord with the human time frame of 1,000 years. That way we know that the 1,000 years in Revelation 20 is clearly the figurative Day of the Lord mentioned throughout the Bible.

John gives us the key in Revelation 20, and many just simply refuse to accept that key.

You're being plain ignorant by showing that whole verse and claiming it means that a Day in the Bible means a Thousand years. Most who are trying to wrongfully use that verse only use the first part. To post the second makes you look pretty foolish.

One day (with man) is as a thousand years with the Lord.
AND a thousand years (with man) is as one day with the Lord.

That doesn't come close to defining a day as a thousand years in Scripture, it merely means that God is outside of time. Look at the rest of the chapter prior to that verse. What is it talking about? It is talking about those who grow impatient for the return of Christ and that verse is saying that we shouldn't become impatient as there is no time where God exists. He created time and space, and He exists outside of it. He knows when He will come back and it will be when He decides that things upon the earth have come to full fruition, and only He can decide when that is.

The 'Day = 1000 years' nonsense is contradicted by so much Scripture it's amazing to me that people are still parroting that trash false doctrine. It is a desperately needed foundational lie to support Pre-Mil and other false doctrines. Without it, they have not a leg to stand upon.

 

[Jamdoc]

I could tell your beliefs were not Biblical right off the bat.

The Bible makes clear, in many passages, that the Day of the Lord IS quite definitively a single day. To claim otherwise is to open the door to multiple other heresies like the Millennium nonsense theory of Pre-Mil and others.

You are under the very common wrong-teaching and belief that the events of Revelation somehow set a sequentially identifiable standard for other aspects of the end times when they absolutely do not. Those who claim this particular event can't happen because of this bowl or that trumpet and so on and so forth are completely wrong.

All of Revelation MUST coincide with the rest of the Bible and those who believe the nonsense you are peddling reverse that order and claim that all of the rest of the Bible cannot be correct unless it aligns with the very symbolic and signified work of Revelation.

You're wrong. Period.

And there you go, you're doing what they do, taking something hyperliteral and then resorting to allegorizing the rest of scripture to make it fit
you're taking a square peg and trying to fit it into a round hole.

And the Bible is a Witness against you.

You have failed to do that and you've misunderstood the nature of Revelation that is made plain by Jesus Himself, as well as the KJV intro to the book. You are destroyed for lack of knowledge and for lack of developing a love for the Truth.
Hosea 4:6
2 Thessalonians 2:10

Nope.

It's not people who have different interpretations of Scripture from the Holy Spirit. It is different heretical explanations that are sown into the Christian mindset by those who intend harm.

True Christians who study the Scriptures with guidance from the Holy Spirit don't all come to different interpretations based on sincere Bible study on their own. Those who study, who actually have the Holy Spirit (and many do not,) come to the same exact conclusions.

Pre-Trib is found nowhere in Scripture, The Day of Wrath - Day of the Lord is ONE single day - just as Jesus repeats The Last Day 12 times in John, nobody is OSAS, there is no Trinity and Jesus is God, ... among many other Truths that are NOT TAUGHT in modern Christendom and are found very plainly in Scripture.

and the 5th trumpet, part of the wrath of God, after He returns, is 5.
months.
long.

I suppose I can try to dispel the nonsense, but it's unlikely to work. once you guys get locked onto this hyperliteral 24 hour day of the Lord you never let it go even if it requires allegorizing the entire rest of the bible to force it to fit.

But I'll try anyway

Isaiah 34

1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.
2 For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

So, language like the 6th seal, the heavens rolled up like a scroll, stars falling like figs off a fig tree, coming with the indignation of God..
and it's the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses.
The day and the year are used interchangeably here.

Isaiah 63

1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

This is Jesus, on the earth, Isaiah meeting Him coming from Edom, meaning He came down from heaven previously, which from other scripture (such as Acts 1) we know He comes down on the Mount of Olives, so He came down and then He DID things, like go to Edom, and did something (probably Obadiah 1, killed all the descendants of Esau)
but again, He uses the day and the year interchangeably.

Don't get fixated on one thing and then try to force all scripture to fit it, even when it contradicts "the day" and "the hour" being at hand is a common figure of speech. It does not necessarily mean 24 hours, or 60 minutes.

still fixated on the 24 hour thing?

Revelation 10

6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But [b[in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound[/b], the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The 7th trumpet is multiple days, itself, even if you hold to that goofy doctrine that the 7th trumpet is "the last trump" that Paul was referring to in 1 Corinthians 15 (which it isn't, The Lord blows the trumpet for the resurrection, an Angel blows the 7th trumpet of the wrath of the Lamb, see Zechariah 9, it is the Lord that blows the trumpet, not an angel, so they are in fact different)... but even if you hold that doctrine it is STILL not a single 24 hour day.

 

[Think...]

and the 5th trumpet, part of the wrath of God, after He returns, is 5.
months.
long.

Yeah, the Bible just doesn't teach that at all.

Your eschatology is a jumbled mess that is not aligned with Scripture in the least.

The only way to confirm it to yourself is to cherry-pick verses, some here and some there, to assume the motions of supporting your disjointed doctrinal structure.

Good luck with that.

 

[Jamdoc]

Yeah, the Bible just doesn't teach that at all.

Your eschatology is a jumbled mess that is not aligned with Scripture in the least.

The only way to confirm it to yourself is to cherry-pick verses, some here and some there, to assume the motions of supporting your disjointed doctrinal structure.

Good luck with that.

Uh, excuse me?

Revelation 9

1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

It's right there in the text, they are tormented for 5 months, and it is multiple days during the first woe. The 3 woes are certainly not "tribulation" caused by men. It's supernatural, it's the wrath of the lamb, which is, the wrath of God.

 

[Think...]

Uh, excuse me?

Revelation 9


It's right there in the text, they are tormented for 5 months, and it is multiple days during the first woe. The 3 woes are certainly not "tribulation" caused by men. It's supernatural, it's the wrath of the lamb, which is, the wrath of God.

Yeah, I'm familiar with Revelation.

It says nowhere in the entire Bible that it takes place after Christ returns.

Take care.

 

[Jamdoc]

Yeah, I'm familiar with Revelation.

It says nowhere in the entire Bible that it takes place after Christ returns.

Take care.

So you have the wrath of God before Christ returns.

That is exactly what I'm talking about with not understanding the difference between the wrath of God and tribulation.

People latch onto one particular doctrine or another, and then force the entire rest of the bible to fit that doctrine.
For pre trib, it's "we are not appointed to wrath", therefore they conflate tribulation with the wrath of God, and boom, declare pretribulation rapture, and they will invent things like an alien deception to "cover up" the rapture, and "tribulation saints" to make their doctrine fit, and they always stress "the seven year tribulation" in order to force their position, even though the bible never once says "seven year tribulation"

For post trib, it is often they latch onto "the Day of the Lord" as being 1 24 hour day, and will force all scripture showing the wrath of God taking place over multiple days as allegory, or they will allegorize it and claim that those events are not supernatural but in fact "tribulation"
Square peg, round hole, and they often combine it with the doctrine of "immediately after the tribulation of those days" which is, conflating tribulation with the wrath of God so they are in essence "post wrath" rapture position. Though they will claim 1 Thessalonians 5:9 doesn't refer to the things in Revelation that the text describes as the "wrath of the Lamb" or "the wrath of God" as the wrath of God they will say, those are tribulation, and the wrath of God is 1 day at the 7th trumpet or in Revelation 19 whichever they've latched onto being the day Jesus returns, ignoring that the 6th seal has the signs that Jesus gave for His return, and Jesus being on the clouds in Revelation 14, or the saints in heaven in Revelation 7 before the 7 trumpets, or the saints in heaven in Revelation 15 as the bowls of God's wrath are coming out of the temple in heaven, and they'll say "oh, flash forward" or something like that.

and frankly neither position, can reconcile Isaiah 63.

Which has Jesus coming back from Edom, stained in blood, and Jesus Himself said that nobody was with Him while He tread the winepress of His wrath.

The only reconciliation is that Jesus came down while the saints were raptured, Jesus tread the winepress alone, and the saints rejoined Him on Earth later.

 

[Timtofly]

The 'Day = 1000 years' nonsense is contradicted by so much Scripture it's amazing to me that people are still parroting that trash false doctrine. It is a desperately needed foundational lie to support Pre-Mil and other false doctrines. Without it, they have not a leg to stand upon.

Yet you have offered no other Scripture. And you change the words in the verse to fit your denial of God's Word.

 

[Think...]

Yet you have offered no other Scripture. And you change the words in the verse to fit your denial of God's Word.

Nokay.

 

[Diamond7]

Does this mean that after the rapture, Gentiles are no longer able to be saved?

After the rapture, they say only martyrs are saved.
Revelation 20
4 Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

 

[Diamond7]

I've always wondered what happens to all the dead unbelieving Jews before the pre-trib rapture. They are also out of luck because they were born in the wrong generation.

Rapture is not the resurrection. It means we leave our body behind - our spirit and soul go to be with Jesus. All born-again believers are raptured and have been for the last 2,000 years of the Church age. Before Calvery, they went to Abraham's bosom. They were resurrected when Jesus went to Calvery.

Matthew 27
…51At that moment the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53 After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.…