Rape: A Crime Some Women Deserve?

[Prophetable]

We are in no way conducting a study. We are conducting an internet debate. A scientific study is this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

Please don't misquote me. I said we are partially having a study. We all know this is a debate but study is involved.

Statstics that are gathered by statiticians and researchers are not man-on-the-street are not studies nor do they produce scientific statistical results.

And, every study presented as shown that blame of rape is not to be blamed on the victim, but instead, on the perp, and often on the society that supports the perp.

Of course the studies show that the perpetrator is to blame. Of course! But where is some evidence to show that Provocative Dress cannot contribute in increasing the chances of rape? Can you give us a clear example of this from your various resources?

 

[fatpie42]

Just to dispell this rubbish that 'sexual attraction has NOTHING to do with it':

"While sexual attraction may be influential, power, control and anger are the primary motives."

Of course this isn't a contradiction of this:

"Rapists are motivated by the desire to have power and control over another person, not by sexual attraction. "

http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jhamlin/3925/myths.html

(Very informative site - you should check it out )

 

[k]

As I thought. With all of the various links and resources you can't provide one piece of evidence to denounce my argument.

NO argument has been presented. Stating an opinion is NOT the same as an argument.

http://www.rapehelp.com/rape-myths.html

That is just ONE source.

Also, it should be pointed out it is a logical fallacy to include the word, "never." The only absolute is there are no absolutes, except God.

I find it ironic you have ignored the plethora of links provided yet demand more without addressing the ones already posted.

 

[k]

Just to dispell this rubbish that 'sexual attraction has NOTHING to do with it':

"While sexual attraction may be influential, power, control and anger are the primary motives."

Of course this isn't a contradiction of this:

"Rapists are motivated by the desire to have power and control over another person, not by sexual attraction. "

http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jhamlin/3925/myths.html

(Very informative site - you should check it out )

Myth:
Rape is all about sex. The man just needed to have sex with someone.
Fact:
Rape is NOT about sex. Rape is an act of VIOLENCE and CONTROL.
http://www.rapehelp.com/rape-myths.html

The point is that whatever sexual attraction may be present, it is such a small part it is irrelevant.

AGAIN, there is a diff between NORMAL sexual attraction and a rapist's version of what counts as "sexual attraction."

 

[k]

Please don't misquote me. I said we are partially having a study. We all know this is a debate but study is involved.




Of course the studies show that the perpetrator is to blame. Of course! But where is some evidence to show that Provocative Dress cannot contribute in increasing the chances of rape? Can you give us a clear example of this from your various resources?

What is this incessant need to find SOME way to blame the victim?

 

[fatpie42]

Myth:
The point is that whatever sexual attraction may be present, it is such a small part it is irrelevant.

Irrelevant to what? To whether the woman gets raped - yes, I know. I never disputed this. What I disputed was whether the rapist would NEVER care about how attractive the victim was.

AGAIN, there is a diff between NORMAL sexual attraction and a rapist's version of what counts as "sexual attraction."

So rapists get attracted to people in different way? What are they, aliens from outer space?

Rapists are human beings. Nasty ones, but humans nonetheless. They get attracted to women just like we do. What is abnormal about them is their wish to have sex with someone against their will - and the motivation to do THAT is not about attractiveness.

What I am cautioning people about, is taking the argument so far to extremes that they pretend that rapists are not influenced by attractiveness AT ALL. Rapists ARE influenced by attractiveness, however it is FAR from being the deciding factor. Okay?

Honestly, the way you are talking we'd have thought that all rapists are all monstrous space aliens that can never feel sexual attraction. They are human beings, the attractiveness of a woman has an affect on their decisions. This does not mean, of course, that a woman is safe from rape (not even just from most rapists) if she only dresses modestly.

 

[wanderingone]

They are human beings, the attractiveness of a woman has an affect on their decisions. This does not mean, of course, that a woman is safe from rape (not even just from most rapists) if she only dresses modestly.

Except rape is generally not a crime that has much to do with sexual attraction and everything to do with power.


Myth: Women "ask for it" by their dress or actions.

FACT

Rapists look for victims they perceive as vulnerable, not women who dress in a particular way. Assuming that women provoke attacks by where they are or the way they dress is victim-blaming. No person, whatever their behaviour, "deserves" to be raped.​

Myth: Rape only happens to young attractive women.

Fact: Rape can and does strike anyone at anytime. Age, social class, ethnic group and has no bearing on the person a rapist chooses to attack. Research data clearly proves that a way a woman dresses and / or acts does not influence the rapists choice of victims. His decision to rape is based on how easily he perceives his target can be intimidated. Rapists are looking for available and vulnerable targets.​

Myth: Rape is a crime of passion.

Fact: Rape is an act of VIOLENCE, not passion. it is an attempt to hurt and humiliate, using sex as the weapon.​

Myth: Only certain kinds of people get raped. It cannot happen to me.

FACT​

Rapists act without considering their victim's physical appearance, dress, age, race, gender, or social status. Assailants seek out victims who they perceive to be vulnerable. The Orange County Rape Crisis Center has worked with victims from infancy to ninety-two years of age and from all racial and socioeconomic backgrounds.


Myth: Rape is an impulsive, uncontrollable act of sexual gratification. Most rape are spontaneous acts of passion where the assailant cannot control him/herself.

FACT​

Rape is a premeditated act of violence, not a spontaneous act of passion. 71% of rapes are planned in advance. 60% of convicted rapists were married or had regular sexual partners at the time of the assault. Men can control their sexual impulses. The vast majority of rapists are motivated by power, anger, and control, not sexual gratification

http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jhamlin/3925/myths.html




​

 

[KCDAD]

Um... let me try and translate this, because it seems to me that there is a very obvious clue to suggest that in the 'date rape drug' case they actually were attracted to the victim: the fact that they were on a date!

Either you are VERY naive or are just a trouble maker...

The purpose of the date was to rape her. Whether she was attractive or not was less important than whether she would she be a possible victim. You REALLY think human beings plan a nicee romantic evening and then all of sudden slip in a little Rohypnol in their date's drink BECAUSE THEY LIKE THEM SO MUCH? In case you didn't know it, when the lights are out it doesn't matter what your sexual victim looks like or what she was wearing...

 

[k]

Irrelevant to what? To whether the woman gets raped - yes, I know. I never disputed this. What I disputed was whether the rapist would NEVER care about how attractive the victim was.



So rapists get attracted to people in different way? What are they, aliens from outer space?

Rapists are human beings. Nasty ones, but humans nonetheless. They get attracted to women just like we do. What is abnormal about them is their wish to have sex with someone against their will - and the motivation to do THAT is not about attractiveness.

What I am cautioning people about, is taking the argument so far to extremes that they pretend that rapists are not influenced by attractiveness AT ALL. Rapists ARE influenced by attractiveness, however it is FAR from being the deciding factor. Okay?

Honestly, the way you are talking we'd have thought that all rapists are all monstrous space aliens that can never feel sexual attraction. They are human beings, the attractiveness of a woman has an affect on their decisions. This does not mean, of course, that a woman is safe from rape (not even just from most rapists) if she only dresses modestly.

The problem is the meaning and use of the phrase "sexual attraction."

If rapists were truly influenced by "attractiveness" then more rapists would be attacking women in the open view of the public. Instead, they wait and plan their attacks when the victims are at the most vulnerable places....the POWER is what is attractive.

 

[KCDAD]

As I thought. With all of the various links and resources you can't provide one piece of evidence to denounce my argument.

Proof proof proof...
You have been hanging with the Atheists too much... you want proof...

You show me proof of one example of a rapist for whom sexual attraction was the motivation for the rape...

An erection is not proof of anything... babies get erections...

I wouldn't argue that some rapists are NOT sexually attracted to their victims... only that sexual attraction is not what MOTIVATES them to rape.

 

[KCDAD]

Irrelevant to what? .

The difference between causation and correlation is that one is relevant.

If a rapist rapes some "attractive" women and some "ugly" women then there may be a correlation as to attractiveness but obviously no causation... the exceptions eliminate attractiveness as a causal factor.

If all rapes involve power and control and terror, then that can possibly be identified as either a correlate or causal factor... more research would be needed to isolate other factors... genetics, social identity, education, prior history of violence, whatever.
But with the information available, power and control and terror are much more appropriate factors to be considered than attractiveness...

 

[fatpie42]

If a rapist rapes some "attractive" women and some "ugly" women then there may be a correlation as to attractiveness but obviously no causation... the exceptions eliminate attractiveness as a causal factor.

Yes, but if there are some rapists who don't rape women they find unattractive then there may be other rapists who DO. The point is that not all rapists will act in the same way.

For example, not ALL rapists will be prepared to rape old ladies. Why is that? They can still express power over them can't they? If attraction can be an influence in deciding who NOT to rape, why can't it be an influential factor in who they DO rape too?

I don't mean in every case. I mean that in some cases attrative sexual attraction might act as an influence (even though it is NOT the deciding factor by any means).

 

[fatpie42]

Either you are VERY naive or are just a trouble maker...

The purpose of the date was to rape her. Whether she was attractive or not was less important than whether she would she be a possible victim. You REALLY think human beings plan a nicee romantic evening and then all of sudden slip in a little Rohypnol in their date's drink BECAUSE THEY LIKE THEM SO MUCH? In case you didn't know it, when the lights are out it doesn't matter what your sexual victim looks like or what she was wearing...

I guess I'm naive. Obviously the rapist has no respect for women, but you don't need to have respect for women to ask them out on a date.

I was simply suggesting that some rapists might ask someone out on a date because they are attracted to them sexually and want to have sex with them. They probably don't even consider using a date-rape drug to be rape.

Sure the decision to rape the girl isn't about how attractive she is, but I am suggesting that the attractiveness might play a part in influencing them. Also, I might add that I backed this up with a source. Do you think the source I quoted is wrong, or do you think I misunderstood its meaning?

 

[fatpie42]

Except rape is generally not a crime that has much to do with sexual attraction and everything to do with power.


Myth: Women "ask for it" by their dress or actions.

FACT
Rapists look for victims they perceive as vulnerable, not women who dress in a particular way. Assuming that women provoke attacks by where they are or the way they dress is victim-blaming. No person, whatever their behaviour, "deserves" to be raped.
Myth: Rape only happens to young attractive women.

Fact: Rape can and does strike anyone at anytime. Age, social class, ethnic group and has no bearing on the person a rapist chooses to attack. Research data clearly proves that a way a woman dresses and / or acts does not influence the rapists choice of victims. His decision to rape is based on how easily he perceives his target can be intimidated. Rapists are looking for available and vulnerable targets.​

Myth: Rape is a crime of passion.

Fact: Rape is an act of VIOLENCE, not passion. it is an attempt to hurt and humiliate, using sex as the weapon.​

Myth: Only certain kinds of people get raped. It cannot happen to me.

FACT​

Rapists act without considering their victim's physical appearance, dress, age, race, gender, or social status. Assailants seek out victims who they perceive to be vulnerable. The Orange County Rape Crisis Center has worked with victims from infancy to ninety-two years of age and from all racial and socioeconomic backgrounds.


Myth: Rape is an impulsive, uncontrollable act of sexual gratification. Most rape are spontaneous acts of passion where the assailant cannot control him/herself.

FACT​

Rape is a premeditated act of violence, not a spontaneous act of passion. 71% of rapes are planned in advance. 60% of convicted rapists were married or had regular sexual partners at the time of the assault. Men can control their sexual impulses. The vast majority of rapists are motivated by power, anger, and control, not sexual gratification

http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jhamlin/3925/myths.html

​

Yes, but that same site does not contradict itself when it ALSO claims:

"While sexual attraction may be influential, power, control and anger are the primary motives."

This simply means that sexual attraction MIGHT be influential (though not in all cases) and that it is not a primary motive. I don't see why people aren't prepared to accept that rapists DO experience sexual attraction and it does have an influence on some of their decisions.

The decision to rape is not about attractiveness, but rapists are not space aliens who lack sexual attraction.

 

[christalee4]

Yes, but that same site does not contradict itself when it ALSO claims:

"While sexual attraction may be influential, power, control and anger are the primary motives."

This simply means that sexual attraction MIGHT be influential (though not in all cases) and that it is not a primary motive. I don't see why people aren't prepared to accept that rapists DO experience sexual attraction and it does have an influence on some of their decisions.

The decision to rape is not about attractiveness, but rapists are not space aliens who lack sexual attraction.

I disagree. Rapists are aliens in that they can't relate normally to other human beings, as in being sexually attracted to children and senior citizens. They're not sexually attracted to their victims in the normal way, like asking for dates or going out for coffee. They see themselves as conquerors, and manufacture this illusion about themselves as being infinitely superior and powerful.

 

[wanderingone]

Yes, but that same site does not contradict itself when it ALSO claims:

"While sexual attraction may be influential, power, control and anger are the primary motives."

This simply means that sexual attraction MIGHT be influential (though not in all cases) and that it is not a primary motive. I don't see why people aren't prepared to accept that rapists DO experience sexual attraction and it does have an influence on some of their decisions.

The decision to rape is not about attractiveness, but rapists are not space aliens who lack sexual attraction.

The site doesn't contradict itself, it tells you it's not a primary factor and it's not about how women look to the rapist, in terms of women being responsible for their own assault (going all the way back to the topic title of women deserving rape) because they dress in a way that "turns men on" sexually or act in such a way that men "can't help" but act on their sexual urges is repeatedly documented as an invalid theory on why rape occurs.

Rapist may be "sexually attracted" to women for a million reasons.. it's not (as you said) the cause of the rape. That rapists have sexual attractions is probably fairly obvious, they're human, that sexual attraction is the cause of a rape and therefore women who are somehow sexually appealing are responsible for their own rapes is where the misunderstanding comes in. People think somehow that rape wouldn't occur if somehow rapists weren't sexually attracted to the women they rape, and then immediately dissect what a woman was wearing, saying, doing, at the time the assault occurred.

 

[KCDAD]

I guess I'm naive. I was simply suggesting that some rapists might ask someone out on a date because they are attracted to them sexually and want to have sex with them. They probably don't even consider using a date-rape drug to be rape.

Sure the decision to rape the girl isn't about how attractive she is, but I am suggesting that the attractiveness might play a part in influencing them. Also, I might add that I backed this up with a source. Do you think the source I quoted is wrong, or do you think I misunderstood its meaning?

Wanting to have sex, having sex and rape are completely different things... think of someone repeatedly saying no to you and fighting you off as you proceed with your assault... this is not in ANY way an act of desire or attractiveness... it is an act of violence that using sex as a weapon. (Sometimes it is a stick or any other object...)

Get that whole attractiveness, blame the victim thing out of your perspective and you will see rape for what it is... otherwise you will continue to argue the "she brought it on, or she was asking for it, or he was just thinking with his johnson..." nonsense.

 

[Tenebrae]

I guess I'm naive. Obviously the rapist has no respect for women, but you don't need to have respect for women to ask them out on a date.

I was simply suggesting that some rapists might ask someone out on a date because they are attracted to them sexually and want to have sex with them. They probably don't even consider using a date-rape drug to be rape.

Sure the decision to rape the girl isn't about how attractive she is, but I am suggesting that the attractiveness might play a part in influencing them. Also, I might add that I backed this up with a source. Do you think the source I quoted is wrong, or do you think I misunderstood its meaning?

Could you quote the source please

 

[marblehead]

What's this with fighting against the possibility that sexual attraction plays a part in some rapes?
Is it really that hard to face that a rapist's attraction to the victim may play a part?

 

[fillerbunny]

I've never stated that power, control, violence, etc, aren't factors. The burden of proof is upon you however to proove that Sexual desire isn't as well.

Non-existence cannot be proven. The burden of proof is on you, to provide evidence that sexual desire is a causative factor leading to rape. Given the complete absence of citations in support of this theory, I can only conclude that there is no such evidence.. lest someone surely would have posted it by now. You are more than welcome to provide a source supporting your claims.

Which reality of things? That Sex isn't a part of rape???

As has been posted (and supported using reliable sources) elsewhere throughout this thread, the reality is that sex is merely the attacker's weapon of choice. The primary motive of rapists is not sex.