Rape: A Crime Some Women Deserve?

[k]

It's ridiculous to claim that Rape isn't about Lust and Sex.

It's ridiculous to say the way women dress has nothing to do with Rape.

You don't need statistics to understand this, just oxygen to the brain.

Does a woman deserved to be raped as fitting punishment for wrong dress or provocative behaviour? No!

However a sane society should be careful of modesty in dress knowing that Sexual Desire is the strongest desire within mankind.

May I suggest some writings by Catherin MacKinnon and Marilyn Frye?

It's easy to say, "It's ridiculous..." but it is MUCH MUCH harder to actually support that statement with an actual argument.

Lastly, to say that sexual desire is the STRONGEST desire within mankind is to somehow abdicate the responsibilities the rapists solely possess when they rape.

The layers are adding up...first it's how women dress that play a role into them being raped, then it's how they act, then it's "be modest" because sexual desire is the strongest desire in mankind therefore men cannot be FULLY responsible for their actions.

I fear that by the time the layers are done some would argue women who wear short skirts and get raped should be the ones prosecuted, and not the rapist, for enticing or making the man act on his strongest desire when he had no intention of doing so.

 

[k]

None of this changes the fact that immodest dress and provocative behaviour can contribute towards rape. Have I ever said it is the only cause? No. Nevertheless it would require an IQ deficiency to claim that it never does. People who create statistics and information that suggest otherwise are people that think people can dress how they like. Funny that.

FOR THE MOMENT...let me agree with you that dress/behaviour contributes. Now, we must ask the next logical question...why is this relevant at all????

 

[SallyNow]

FOR THE MOMENT...let me agree with you that dress/behaviour contributes. Now, we must ask the next logical question...why is this relevant at all????

Exactly! It is not relevant at all, and it is downright cruel to think it is. Let me give some examples for those who still believe it's the victim's fault:

Let's say I'm walking down a street with a pair of Pradas on. Mary wants the exact pair of Sketchers I am wearing, and she's got a sadistic streak. So she steals the Pradas from me.

Was I to blame for wearing Pradas on that day, for walking down the street at that time? No, of course not! It was Mary's fault that she stole them.

Now let's say I'm wearing a pair of Sketchers to a party at my friend's house. I know everyone there. We're all friends. But I don't know one of my "friends" has a shoe fetish. And this guy, his name is, say, Joe, sees my Sketchers and just must have them, and steals my Sketchers.

Was it my fault for going to a party? Was my fault for taking my shoes off? Was it my fault for trusting my friends? No, of course not! It's Joe's fault he stole my shoes, and that's that.

And let's say I'm at the office, and I have a stapler. Leslie compulsivly steals office supplies, and will break into officeses, desks, whatever, to steal them. I guess I shouldn't have a stapler in my office, eh?

I've posted reputable link after reputable link, and all I get is the response of "but it MUST be because the victim did something!" with no evidence to back it up. So now I'm posting these questions, and just waiting for the intellectual gymnastics to begin...

 

[k]

Let's say I'm walking down a street with a pair of Pradas on. Mary wants the exact pair of Sketchers I am wearing, and she's got a sadistic streak. So she steals the Pradas from me.

Was I to blame for wearing Pradas on that day, for walking down the street at that time? No, of course not! It was Mary's fault that she stole them.

Now let's say I'm wearing a pair of Sketchers to a party at my friend's house. I know everyone there. We're all friends. But I don't know one of my "friends" has a shoe fetish. And this guy, his name is, say, Joe, sees my Sketchers and just must have them, and steals my Sketchers.

Was it my fault for going to a party? Was my fault for taking my shoes off? Was it my fault for trusting my friends? No, of course not! It's Joe's fault he stole my shoes, and that's that.

And let's say I'm at the office, and I have a stapler. Leslie compulsivly steals office supplies, and will break into officeses, desks, whatever, to steal them. I guess I shouldn't have a stapler in my office, eh?

I've posted reputable link after reputable link, and all I get is the response of "but it MUST be because the victim did something!" with no evidence to back it up. So now I'm posting these questions, and just waiting for the intellectual gymnastics to begin...

...............

 

[Prophetable]

To say provocative dress never contributes towards rape you would have to be God. You would have to know everything. I don't see how the conclusion could be stated otherwise(Except of course through political correct brainwashing).

I'd also like to add that the Rugby tackle, Kicking the Homeless guy examples, etc, should be rated R - for Ridiculous. Such satire doesn't do any damage to common sense.

Everybody knows that people dress up to attract the opposite sex. Hence, sexual desire is increased. To say such Sexual desire being increased in say a Serial Rapist won't increase the chance of the criminal raping someone is therefore silly.

I asked if someone could please explain in their own reasonable words why provocative dress would not contribute towards increased chance of rape.

I'd rather think about things rather than just accept politically correct dogma.

Also, there's nothing more hypocritical than christian believers who will applaude Secular Experts as being infallible in one area, whilst believing they are wrong in others that contend with their faith.

 

[SallyNow]

To say provocative dress never contributes towards rape you would have to be God. You would have to know everything. I don't see how the conclusion could be stated otherwise(Except of course through political correct brainwashing).

I'd also like to add that the Rugby tackle, Kicking the Homeless guy examples, etc, should be rated R - for Ridiculous. Such satire doesn't do any damage to common sense.

Everybody knows that people dress up to attract the opposite sex. Hence, sexual desire is increased. To say such Sexual desire being increased in say a Serial Rapist won't increase the chance of the criminal raping someone is therefore silly.

I asked if someone could please explain in their own reasonable words why provocative dress would not contribute towards increased chance of rape.

I'd rather think about things rather than just accept politically correct dogma.

Also, there's nothing more hypocritical than christian believers who will applaude Secular Experts as being infallible in one area, whilst believing they are wrong in others that contend with their faith.

So do you have any evidence to back up your claims, or just more accusations against Christians who use logic and evidence and science and the social sciences, that they are somehow "hypocritical"?

Many good questions have been asked, yet not answered. Many links to studies and information about rape have been posted, yet ignored. Why? Perhaps because in realitythe "blame the victim" dogma has no real basis except to control, scare, and blame men, women and children who are or potentially are victims of rape?

 

[non-religious]

Unfortunately rape is something that occurs all over the world. Regardless of faith, customs, tradition, dress codes etc... it happens. Women in the Middle East who are covered from head to toe are still victims of rape, just like children in certain war torn parts of the African continent are raped and abused by men. These women are not dressed to entice the opposite sex and since when does looking good have to be about attracting or pleasing the opposite sex? Rape is rape is rape, no judge in their right mind would entertain a plea of "she had a short skirt on and was asking for it." If a man cannot control his sexual desires and rapes a women, be it on the spur of the moment or as a pre-planned attack then he is a rapist who needs to be caught and prosecuted. Clothes or the lack of should have nothing to do with it.

 

[fatpie42]

Just to take your example a bit further.

Let's say I'm walking down a street with a pair of Pradas on. Mary wants the exact pair of Sketchers I am wearing, and she's got a sadistic streak. So she steals the Pradas from me.

Was I to blame for wearing Pradas on that day, for walking down the street at that time? No, of course not! It was Mary's fault that she stole them.

Ah, but if you hadn't worn Pradas, Mary wouldn't have stolen your shoe!. So obviously you shouldn't show off something you have if you don't want to get robbed

To be honest, it sounds like the explanation for women who get raped when only ever modestly dressed would be - "well it's their fault for being too sexy even in modest clothing!" Just being beautiful is enough to encourage rape because the guy is less likely to get-it-up if you are ugly.

 

[fatpie42]

Also, there's nothing more hypocritical than christian believers who will applaude Secular Experts as being infallible in one area, whilst believing they are wrong in others that contend with their faith.

Secular Experts don't contradict elements of faith. How could they possibly do such a thing?

No one is saying that a woman's attractiveness and style of dress is not a 'contributing factor'. If someone steals something expensive, obviously its expensiveness would be a contributing factor. However, in the case of rape, the style of dress is not the main motivating factor! In fact, unlike with the expensive item being stolen, there is evidence to suggest that even if a woman is modestly dressed they are still just as 'likely' to be raped.

 

[Prophetable]

All being said, I'm glad that people can acknowledge that immodest/provocative dress can be a contributing factor in Rape. I've maintained this point throughout without acknowledgement until now.

Perhaps the issue of dress modesty should be discussed in a different thread.

Women are never at fault for being beautiful.
Certainly women don't deserved to be "raped" as just punishment for wearing sexually alluring attire. However such provocative dress in public is moral fault in itself.
Therefore we should all be responsible in how we dress.

 

[fatpie42]

Certainly women don't deserved to be "raped" as just punishment for wearing sexually alluring attire. However such provocative dress in public is moral fault in itself.
Therefore we should all be responsible in how we dress.

You still haven't recognised the fact that women are just as likely to be raped if they DON'T wear 'alluring attire' (and dress modestly instead) have you?

 

[Prophetable]

Secular Experts don't contradict elements of faith. How could they possibly do such a thing?

.

Of course they do, in many instances.
For example there are few non-christians that are prolife in the abortion issue. In the majority Secular Experts would conclude (No doubt with their facts and statistics backing them) that abortion is legitimate. Many, many christians however are vehemently opposed to this.

 

[KCDAD]

To be honest, it sounds like the explanation for women who get raped when only ever modestly dressed would be - "well it's their fault for being too sexy even in modest clothing!" Just being beautiful is enough to encourage rape because the guy is less likely to get-it-up if you are ugly.

Rape isn't about attractiveness or beauty... it is about forcing your will on another person... it is a display of power over another. Beauty is a poor excuse, as is horniness or deprivation or anything else... it is about violence and exercize of power.

People rape 80 and 90 year old women and men, little toddlers, friends and enemies... there is no profile for a rape victim... except powerlessness.

 

[Prophetable]

You still haven't recognised the fact that women are just as likely to be raped if they DON'T wear 'alluring attire' (and dress modestly instead) have you?

I prefer to recognise the fact that each situation is unique. Just as likely to be raped if they don't wear 'alluring attire'. I don't think so. Your statement is too concluding and definitive. To agree with that statement would be to assert that wearing 'alluring attire' could never increase the chance of rape.

 

[KCDAD]

To agree with that statement would be to assert that wearing 'alluring attire' could never increase the chance of rape.

That is a fair assertion.

 

[cwolf20]

This article proves that at least half the people that go to one nightclub regularly will chase down a person who attempted to rape a woman and beat him severely. Obviously they didn't think she deserved it because of the way she dressed.


http://www.wftv.com/news/9168782/detail.html

 

[Prophetable]

Rape isn't about attractiveness or beauty... it is about forcing your will on another person... it is a display of power over another. Beauty is a poor excuse, as is horniness or deprivation or anything else... it is about violence and exercize of power.

People rape 80 and 90 year old women and men, little toddlers, friends and enemies... there is no profile for a rape victim... except powerlessness.

Are you saying that the Rapists aren't sexually attracted to any of these victims? How do you know this?

 

[KCDAD]

Are you saying that the Rapists aren't sexually attracted to any of these victims? How do you know this?

By rape statistics and research. You have to understand the thought procecss behind rape... there is no romance or love or fondness or liking of the OBJECT. There is only self pleasing (The pleasure in not in the sex act or [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] but in the exercise of power.) It is about taking by force that which is not willingly given. Sex is only the tool or weapon.

People don't rape or destroy that which they find attractive or beautiful... there is nothing but hatred and disgust felt for the OBJECT.
Don't confuse rape with playing sexual games with a partner in which one "fantasizes" a rape-like scenario.

 

[fatpie42]

Of course they do, in many instances.
For example there are few non-christians that are prolife in the abortion issue. In the majority Secular Experts would conclude (No doubt with their facts and statistics backing them) that abortion is legitimate. Many, many christians however are vehemently opposed to this.

How is someone's position on abortion an element of faith. Abortion isn't mentioned in the Bible, never mind posed as an 'element of faith'.

 

[fatpie42]

By rape statistics and research. You have to understand the thought procecss behind rape... there is no romance or love or fondness or liking of the OBJECT. There is only self pleasing (The pleasure in not in the sex act or [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] but in the exercise of power.) It is about taking by force that which is not willingly given. Sex is only the tool or weapon.

People don't rape or destroy that which they find attractive or beautiful... there is nothing but hatred and disgust felt for the OBJECT.
Don't confuse rape with playing sexual games with a partner in which one "fantasizes" a rape-like scenario.

I'm sorry to be annoying, but I think you might be over-generalising here. Not all rapists have the kind of mentality you are describing. If someone is using date-rape drugs, there is a possibility that it is because they are attracted to the girl but don't think she will go the whole way. This is surely a different situation from the one you are describing where the rapist is out for the thrill of domination over someone helpless.

I think we might need to concede that there are SOME rapists who rape because of sexual attraction. However, even in this case the clothing the girl is wearing seems to make little difference. The person in this case would know the girl closely already and I doubt that the clothing she wears on the night he uses the drug will make him change his mind on whether to use it or not....