Rand Paul: Trump's Syria strike will not 'make us safer'

Aldebaran

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From an objective point of view, it makes DPRK's arguments for nuclear deterrence a little more credible. Say what you like about the craziness of the regime, but they haven't fired live war rounds at anyone for a while.

Sure, their government is awful, but they are a sovereign nation with a right to self defence.

Sounds like Kim Jong Un has you convinced that he's not so bad and isn't a threat to anyone. Maybe another nuclear test and missile firing toward Japan (or at our aircraft carrier group) will show otherwise.
 
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LivingWordUnity

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And rather than just answer an open and straight forward question, let's just argue about it for several pages. Much more fun!
Or you can read the first and second posts of this thread (post #1 and post #2, to be more specific).
 
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Aldebaran

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And rather than just answer an open and straight forward question, let's just argue about it for several pages. Much more fun!

Or you could just read the first and second posts. Not all that hard to do.
 
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For those duped by the links in the following quotes:


Oh Agnes, the lying mouthpiece for the Assad regime. Some Christians not allied with the regime don't like her either because of her lies:

Archived: Syrian Christians for Peace: ‘Mother’ Agnus is an Assad agent in the clothes of a nun

Critics question Catholic nun's 'alternative story' on Syria civil war

She has lied repeatedly before so why would anyone ever believe her?


Okay? And? McCain decries US lack of action in Syria and he's a Christian. One who has my respect.

And most of the things said are claims without evidence which I have seen done time and again in order to make it seem like the Christians are the ones suffering the most, not the Sunni Muslims who are the ones actually being targeted in a genocide and ethnic cleansing in Syria.


He was shot by some rebels according to most sources I read, but not much more detail is given by anyone. Disgusting act and if it was the rebels and it is known who did it, they should be punished.


1.) There is no information on al-Duwayr/Douar apart from pro-regime sources (including one that said that the entire population was killed, which is obviously false). And even in these pro-regime sources, no evidence is provided to show that it was any rebel, let alone "Islamic".

2.) There is no information on Oum Sharshouh. The earliest report that shows up is linked to in your link in which no proof is provided. Every other reference seems to be using that as evidence.

3.) Regarding the killings in Hatla, the majority of the dead were pro-regime combatants, not civilians. The group that said it was a sectarian killing and that it was mainly civilians gave another story in Arabic (that the majority of the dead were fighters). Unfortunately, many use this group as a unbiased source (I have also used it on occasion) but there are many who suspect that it is allied with the regime because of many of its press releases containing lies that are favorable to the regime. This group is called the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights which is not to be confused with Syrian Network for Human Rights (the former is bad, the latter is good). Here:
Hatla: fabrication of a massacre

4.) Your own link says, "However aid groups say minority Christians have often been singled out for attacks by opposition linked groups as well as government forces in the heavily Islamic nation"

5.)
Catholic priest NOT among three beheaded on video by Syrian rebels, says head friar


"Residents of Sadad said that over the week that opposition fighters were in the village, fighters mostly did not target or abuse residents, but that in some instances, they endangered and killed civilians and people in their custody and intentionally damaged and looted civilian sites, including churches. Rebel fighters forced residents to stay in areas with active fighting, allegedly used at least one resident as a human shield, and apparently executed residents and killed others with sniper fire. As opposition forces battled government forces in the village some residents were also killed by opposition shelling which may have been indiscriminate." Syria: Opposition Abuses During Ground Offensive

So it sounds like different people said different things. But given all of the evidence, it was not an intentional massacre of Christians.

Look at what nuns in Maloula said: "There were around 20 of them. They looked like Islamists, but they did us no harm," one of the nuns told the BBC a few days after the incident.
Christian villagers cast doubt on Syria jihadist ‘threat’

"I can mention a 100 incidents to you where Assad betrayed Christians.sadad was left alone to ISIS by Assad army" - Hadeel Kouki (the Christian woman who gave testimony in front of the UN against Assad)


And? A ceasefire so that they avoid attacking each other so they can focus on attacking others attacking them. Of course, ISIS breaks its trusts all the time and the rebels continue to fight against ISIS.

Furthermore, Assad and Russia also have deals with ISIS.


With the clause that they could only fight against ISIS and not Assad? How nice of him. That's mainly why the train-and-equip program fizzled out; the biggest problem is Assad since his regime and its allies have killed 200k of the documented civilian casualties (95% of the total). Few rebels are going to be okay with the condition that they can only attack the symptom and not the root.


The US is obviously not supporting ISIS and trying to paint the picture as such is ridiculous. It's not even supporting the rebels in any meaningful way and is, instead, targeting them.

The UN deliberately aided Assad's regime and gave it most of the supplies and billions of dollars instead of those being starved to death by being besieged by Assad and allies.


All that shows is the loss of the archbishop's moral compass. To call Assad a good man despite him being the cause of hundreds of thousands of deaths and the displacement of millions (more than half the country) reaches a level of depravity that I am at a loss of words over. Seriously, call ISIS good guys while you're at it.


See above.

Anyway, let's assume all you linked to was true. That doesn't make Assad the better choice. He is, in fact, even worse than ISIS (who he actually supports in many ways, including by partnering up with it for oil):

Of the (at least) "56 major massacres displaying obvious sectarian or ethnic cleansing traits......49 were carried out by Syrian government forces or local and foreign militia allies of President Bashar al-Assad."

A Damning Indictment of Syrian President Assad’s Systematic Massacres

Apr 07, 2017

edit

"Where I think we do have an honest disagreement [with Hillary Clinton], is that in the incredible quagmire of Syria, where it's hard to know who's fighting who and if you give arms to this guy, it may end up in ISIS' hand the next day. We all know that." - Bernie Sanders

I've been quite disappointed with Sanders, but he recently said that Assad is one of the worst dictators and should be removed, or something around those lines.
 
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LivingWordUnity

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Sanders adopted Hillary Clinton's position after he was recruited by her campaign.

But he was right about Syria before that when he said:

"Where I think we do have an honest disagreement [with Hillary Clinton], is that in the incredible quagmire of Syria, where it's hard to know who's fighting who and if you give arms to this guy, it may end up in ISIS' hand the next day. We all know that." - Bernie Sanders
 
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Armoured

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I don't think Assad used chemical weapons. I think it was a false flag op by the other side.

Does that answer your question?
Anything to avoid contemplating Assad is the bad guy, like Obama said, huh?
 
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Ygrene Imref

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If Obama meant what he said, then he wouldn't have allowed the red line to be crossed without consequence. Obama's 'red line' haunts Clinton, Trump

We do not OWN or POLICE other sovereign nations. At least, not without going through our own national checks and balances.

Congress gave Obama the middle finger on almost every issue he tried to work. So, he wasn't even given the chance to be as evil as many people anticipated (myself included.)

But, we are applauding a possible act of war on a sovereign nation - whose allies are also nuclear powered?

America had done so much to its own citizens, the irony of this situation is almost overwhelming to behold. Just a year and a half ago, a state in the US was found to be POISONING children, babies and adults with the water supply. Even the politicians were found to know about it, and it still happened.

Now, that may not be gas, but lead poisoning is degenerative, and deadly. Should we eat our words and welcome a foreign nation to intervene in that problem (which is not finished, and still ongoing)? Because, little babies and children are dying and suffering from lead poisoning.

Or what about the STDs, and diseases America drops on its own people, and foreign nations? Should a S. AMERICAN country attack the US for dropping biologic agents on their citizens?

What about the States' role in drug war? Should we ignore the CIA Gulfstream jets that crash coming out of Mexico and S. AMERICA with tonnes of drugs?

Hypocrisy will be our worst enemy, because when it is "our turn" to face judgment and such, we won't have anyone in our corner to defend us. Our hypocrisy will isolate us.

And, bombing a country without going through checks and balances using justification of dying children (when the nation attacking kills its own children) is hypocrisy.
 
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LivingWordUnity

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Syrian nun honored by U.S. Says Assad is 'not a dictator'

"Salesian Sister Carolin Tahhan Fachakh, from Syria, told reporters she doubts Syrian president ordered a chemical attack against civilians, and called the decision from the Trump administration to bomb an air base a 'step back from peace.' On March 29 she received the International Woman of Courage Award from first lady Melania Trump."

Continued at link below:
Syrian nun honored by U.S. says Assad is 'not a dictator'

First Lady Melania Trump with Sister Carolin Tahhan Fachakh of Syria.jpg

"First Lady Melania Trump poses for a photo with 2017 International Women of Courage Awardee Sister Carolin Tahhan Fachakh of Syria during a ceremony at the U.S. Department of State in Washington, D.C., on March 29, 2017. (Credit: State Department photo/ Public Domain.)"

Source:
Crux Catholic Media (April 12, 2017)
 
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SolomonVII

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Thank goodness not all Christians seem to be as morally bankrupt as those defending a genocidal dictator. That would be a shame to Christians.


..
Thank goodness. The difference between Assad and Saddam Hussein and the genocidal Islamists that rush into the void of their removal, is that the Islamists like ISIS and the MB aim their genocidal intents directly at the necks of Christians.
The monstrous behavior of Assad and Saddam Hussein was not directed to their Christian citizens. It was directed against the Islamist jihadists who love nothing better than genocide against the Christians of the region.
There is a saying in Christianity that goes something like that if you clean the house of one devil, seven are ready to rush into take his place. The Christians of the region are very aware of these devils.
Fellow Baathist Saddam Hussein was a monster. The monsters that rushed into take his place committed genocide against the Assyrian Christians that Saddam Hussein had protected. Areas of the new caliphate of ISIS are areas of Christian genocide. As long as Assad is there, Christians at least remain alive, and their girls remain outside the slave markets of the perverse Islamists of ISIS.

It is not so hard to comprehend the position of Syrian Christian leaders once you walk a mile in their shoes.

The devil that you know is still a devil. But the devils that you don't know are legion.
 
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TLK Valentine

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It is not so hard to comprehend the position of Syrian Christian leaders once you walk a mile in their shoes.

The devil that you know is still a devil. But the devils that you don't know are legion.

Indeed -- there's no point in overthrowing a tyrant until you've reached an understanding with his would-be successor.
 
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A no fly zone certainly would have helped the rebel resistance. I doubt Russia would have supported a NFZ and it's questionable if NATO would have the authority to impose a NFZ. In any case, Russia has always had a strategic interest in Syria - the Russian Navy Base at Tartus. It's critical for Russian naval operations in the Mediterranean.

We should not be seeking Russia's approval to enforce a NFZ when it is one of the 2 in Syria intentionally targeting civilians with airstrikes.

Over 5k American casualties in Iraq/Afghanistan. Americans were in no mood for another war after Iraq. Both Obama and Trump opposed any further military intervention involving US combat troops. I don't think most Americans would a U.S. direct combat role in Syria...

That would be fine except you can't have it both ways. If you want to not have military interventions anywhere, why fight against ISIS? Why support the Shi'a militias that are just as bad as ISIS in Iraq? Why even be a ratifier of the genocide convention when it clearly holds no value to anybody. It makes words, promises, conventions, etc. lose their effectiveness.

Americans should have been in no mood to ignore another genocide after Bosnia and Rwanda. We could go in to Iraq over false intel, but we can't go into Syria over possibly the most well-documented, real-time genocide yet?
 
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I do not know what the truth is, because this world does nothing but lie. So, I am not going to focus on manufactured outrage and horror - especially when I know it can, and has been easily hired to push a particular agenda or campaign.

Babies can't lie. Their parents won't lie about who is killing them, especially when they know condemning Assad puts more targets on their back (yet they continue to blame him).

This is called a psychological operation. It doesn't mean peoe werent raped, murdered or gassed: it means that is not the point of advertising the events. The point is to get humans to use their emotion so they never look at inconsistencies and holes in what is presented.

The point of publicly pointing out Assad's atrocities is so that everyone can know what criminals his regime and his allies are. It's so that their pain is not felt only within themselves. It's shared so that maybe some good people will do something about it, or at the very least, see Assad/allies for the monsters they are. To document the crimes so that they will never be forgotten. So that no one can try to rewrite history as they are already trying to do. So that it cannot be claimed we didn't know. We did, we do, and we will. Unfortunately, it seems as if a lot of the world is filled with other monsters who will keep on defending Assad unless Assad slaughters their own child right in front of them. Even then they may blame someone else for it.

Rand Paul,

Is an idiot.

If the MANUFACTURED PROBLEM was Assad, chemical weapons and baby death, do you think we REACTED PREDICTABLY? (The answer is yes.)

This is disgusting. I don't even know what to say.

Good for the UN; they also have a part to play.

And Humans Rights Watch and Amnesty International? And the Syrian Network for Human Rights? And Doctors without Borders?

Btw, the UN has aided Assad with millions of dollars.

If you sit down and think about all of this, there is an orgy of evidence pointing to Assad - just like there was an orgy of evidence pointing to Sadam. Think, don't feel. We need to stop repeating history.

No, there was not a lot of evidence in 2003. It was based on false intel. There is a ton of evidence against Assad. You should be ashamed of yourself for even insinuating that Assad may be innocent. You choose to believe politicians who have never even been in Syria, or at least the parts that Assad is bombing. Ask the people there what they think. You don't even have to ask, they've been shouting it at the top of their lungs.
 
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Ygrene Imref

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Babies can't lie. Their parents won't lie about who is killing them, especially when they know condemning Assad puts more targets on their back (yet they continue to blame him).



The point of publicly pointing out Assad's atrocities is so that everyone can know what criminals his regime and his allies are. It's so that their pain is not felt only within themselves. It's shared so that maybe some good people will do something about it, or at the very least, see Assad/allies for the monsters they are. To document the crimes so that they will never be forgotten. So that no one can try to rewrite history as they are already trying to do. So that it cannot be claimed we didn't know. We did, we do, and we will. Unfortunately, it seems as if a lot of the world is filled with other monsters who will keep on defending Assad unless Assad slaughters their own child right in front of them. Even then they may blame someone else for it.



Is an idiot.



This is disgusting. I don't even know what to say.



And Humans Rights Watch and Amnesty International? And the Syrian Network for Human Rights? And Doctors without Borders?

Btw, the UN has aided Assad with millions of dollars.



No, there was not a lot of evidence in 2003. It was based on false intel. There is a ton of evidence against Assad. You should be ashamed of yourself for even insinuating that Assad may be innocent. You choose to believe politicians who have never even been in Syria, or at least the parts that Assad is bombing. Ask the people there what they think. You don't even have to ask, they've been shouting it at the top of their lungs.

Hmm... do you know what a "Psyop," or psychological operation is?
Psychological Operations (United States) - Wikipedia

Every question I raised is valid, because there is precedence of the States (and other nations) using psychological operations - like beefing up a story about WHO killed INNOCENT BABIES with WHAT - in order to get support for some campign.

I am saying don't be so quick to buy the "Assad gassed innocent babies" narrative. Yes, even the people whose children died can be bought. Anyone can. The point that is to exploit your emotions so that you do not pay attention to the "plot holes," and redundancy.

Truth is stranger than fiction.
 
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