Ranchers, Musicians, and Metal-workers...

[japhy]

I'm curious what opinions people have on the matter of the descendants of Cain and their ingenuity:

Cain had relations with his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch. Cain also became the founder of a city, which he named after his son Enoch. To Enoch was born Irad, and Irad became the father of Mehujael; Mehujael became the father of Methusael, and Methusael became the father of Lamech. Lamech took two wives; the name of the first was Adah, and the name of the second Zillah. Adah gave birth to Jabal, the ancestor of all who dwell in tents and keep cattle. His brother's name was Jubal[,] the ancestor of all who play the lyre and the pipe. Zillah, on her part, gave birth to Tubalcain, the ancestor of all who forge instruments of bronze and iron. The sister of Tubalcain was Naamah. (Genesis 4:17-22, NAB)
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We know that Abel was a "keeper of flocks" and that Cain was a "tiller of the soil" (Genesis 4:2). Those dispositions come into play in the first sacrifice mentioned in the Bible. But what is the significance of giving ownership to the professions of metal-working, music, and cattle-herding to the ancestors of Cain?

 

[chaoschristian]

things all associated with sedentary, urban culture?

if the story of Cain and Able reflect in some manner the tension between urban culture and nomadic culture, are perhaps these references somehow vilifying in their language? are these disparaging, as opposed to descriptive, remarks?

 

[Assyrian]

I don't think so. Keeping herds, living in tents, playing the lyre and casting bronze, though not iron, were all things the Israelites and their cousins did in Genesis and Exodus. It seems to portray the early development of civilisation.

The really interesting thing from a literalist/global flood perspective is just what is meant by 'father'. These are descendants of Cain, whose line was wiped out in the flood.

Jabal, Jubal and Tubal-cain were the children of Lamech son of Methushael, Cain's line.

Noah's father was Lamech son of Methuselah, descendants of Seth.

How was Jabal the father of those who dwell in tents and have livestock, if his descendants all drowned?

 

[japhy]

I don't think so. Keeping herds, living in tents, playing the lyre and casting bronze, though not iron, were all things the Israelites and their cousins did in Genesis and Exodus. It seems to portray the early development of civilisation.

The really interesting thing from a literalist/global flood perspective is just what is meant by 'father'. These are descendants of Cain, whose line was wiped out in the flood.

Jabal, Jubal and Tubal-cain were the children of Lamech son of Methushael, Cain's line.

Noah's father was Lamech son of Methuselah, descendants of Seth.

How was Jabal the father of those who dwell in tents and have livestock, if his descendants all drowned?

Well, the Bible doesn't say where the lines of Cain and Seth found their wives; sons of Seth could have married daughters of Cain.

 

[Assyrian]

You mean Noah the righteous and blameless man let his sons marry the floozy daughters of Cain? If it was alright for Noah's family, why was Abraham so keen that Isaac not marry one of the local girls? Gen 24:3 that I may make you swear by the LORD, the God of heaven and God of the earth, that you will not take a wife for my son from the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I dwell. Why did Jacob go to Laban to find a wife? Why were the Israelites commanded not to intermarry with the Canaanites Deut 7:3?

Besides, would Genesis describe Jabal as father of those who dwell in tents if the male line died out? If it was actually carried through the female line, wouldn't Genesis describe Adah and Zillah as mothers of those who do all that stuff?

 

[Melethiel]

If it was actually carried through the female line, wouldn't Genesis describe Adah and Zillah as mothers of those who do all that stuff?

Although I agree with your point, that's just silly.

 

[japhy]

You mean Noah the righteous and blameless man let his sons marry the floozy daughters of Cain? If it was alright for Noah's family, why was Abraham so keen that Isaac not marry one of the local girls? Gen 24:3 that I may make you swear by the LORD, the God of heaven and God of the earth, that you will not take a wife for my son from the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I dwell. Why did Jacob go to Laban to find a wife? Why were the Israelites commanded not to intermarry with the Canaanites Deut 7:3?

Besides, would Genesis describe Jabal as father of those who dwell in tents if the male line died out? If it was actually carried through the female line, wouldn't Genesis describe Adah and Zillah as mothers of those who do all that stuff?

What about the brothers and sisters of Noah? What about his aunts and uncles? What if Noah's ancestry included the line of Cain's descendants? Genesis 6 says Noah, his wife, his sons, and their wives are the only people who were on the ark. Why Noah over any of his ancestors, or his brothers and sisters?

Anyway, Noah being blameless in the eyes of God does not mean that Noah had a "pure" blood-line. Rahab the prostitute is named as an ancestor of Jesus!

 

[shernren]

A figurative interpretation, of course, allows that Jubal is the father of musical instruments in the same way that the US has a Mother-Of-All-Bombs: a "fatherhood" by being the first or most eminent of a particular field, in the same way that we would say that "Einstein is the father of modern physics".

 

[japhy]

A figurative interpretation, of course, allows that Jubal is the father of musical instruments in the same way that the US has a Mother-Of-All-Bombs: a "fatherhood" by being the first or most eminent of a particular field, in the same way that we would say that "Einstein is the father of modern physics".

I'm not worried about literalism, I'm curious why the author of Genesis 4 attributed these proficiencies to descendants of Cain.

 

[Assyrian]

Although I agree with your point, that's just silly.

Probably Though it is not without precedence in Genesis, it is only in the previous chapter that Adam calls his wife Eve because she was mother of all living. But of course if father of those who dwell in tents is figurative, that raised the same question about 'mother of all living'.

Anyway, Noah being blameless in the eyes of God does not mean that Noah had a "pure" blood-line. Rahab the prostitute is named as an ancestor of Jesus!

But we do know that Rahab turned to God, as did Ruth. We don't have that testimony about any of Cain's descendants, just the world getting worse and worse.

But more seriously, I can't imagine that that is what the writer meant. It's all too Holy Blood Holy Grail, with the bloodlines of Jabal, Jubal and Tubal-cain being secretly preserved by marrying into the family of Noah.

It reads as though the writer was simply not aware that civilisation did not continue on, that a global flood wiped out the human race apart from Noah's family, just as he didn't see any problem with Cain being worried about 'whoever' found him, or where his wife and the inhabitants of his city came from.

I'm not worried about literalism, I'm curious why the author of Genesis 4 attributed these proficiencies to descendants of Cain.

Perhaps the people of God seeing themselves as outsiders, strangers and sojourners, while the developments of civilisation went on in 'the world'?

 

[JohnR7]

We know that Abel was a "keeper of flocks" and that Cain was a "tiller of the soil" (Genesis 4:2). Those dispositions come into play in the first sacrifice mentioned in the Bible. But what is the significance of giving ownership to the professions of metal-working, music, and cattle-herding to the ancestors of Cain?

Cains decendents lived 8 generations then we do not hear about them anymore. I think what the Bible is talking about being the father of something, means that they were the first to do it. Just like we call Abraham our father even though we are not physically decended from Abraham.

 

[Floodnut]

I'm not worried about literalism, I'm curious why the author of Genesis 4 attributed these proficiencies to descendants of Cain.

Moses attributed this proficiencies to the descendents of Cain, because it was the descendents of Cain who developed them.

As to where Noah found wives for his sons, and where Noah found HIS OWN wife, that is a great question. Noah alone in his generation was godly. Were even his sons godly, let alone his daughters-in-law?