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Radar-visual God sightings

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by cloudyday2, Oct 20, 2017.

  1. cloudyday2

    cloudyday2 Generic Theist Supporter

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    In ufology some of the more interesting reports are radar-visual cases. A famous example is the series of sightings in 1952 over Washington DC where radars at multiple sights detected UFOs, and fighter pilots sent to investigate also visually detected UFOs ( 1952 Washington, D.C. UFO incident - Wikipedia ). There are various skeptical explanations for the reports, but they are more interesting than the typical single-witness UFO sightings.

    What does Christianity have to compare with these? One interesting case that I know is the 1917 "Miracle of the Sun" in Portugal ( Miracle of the Sun - Wikipedia ). I don't find that case very persuasive, but it is an example of the types of cases that interest me if you know of any.

    thanks.
     
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  2. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid Pushing the Pillars of the Status Quo! Supporter

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    For one, there is the subjective view regarding the regathering of the Jewish people into a nation-state once again after nearly 1900 years, an international manifestation reflective of O.T. prophecy.

    Of course, there's just also the plain jane fact that the Jews, as an ethnic people, or collection of related semitic peoples, are definitely real and have been around for so long, and this indicates something to me on a coherent, religious level. But again, like U.F.O. sightings, I realize the meaning of this is subjective ...

    There is also the subjective view regarding the nature of two "Beasts" of the book of Revelation, as well as the manifestation among peoples of the world of the Mark of the Beast (all of which I think has already been going on for quite some time...I mean a very long time).

    I for one see all of the above as tangible, live possibilities for the presence of God in our world, whether as something we'd count as miraculous or supernatural, or just even as part of the ordinary workings of everyday politics. (I also count all of this as an indicator of other more nefarious, but lesser powers ... )

    Ok. All you skeptics can now place me on your "definitely whacko" list. I'll take it as a compliment, if you do. :cool:

    So, there you go, Cloudy. Prophetically signed, sealed and delivered.

    Peace,
    2PhiloVoid
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2017
  3. cloudyday2

    cloudyday2 Generic Theist Supporter

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    I found a couple of links on those topics:
    Who is the beast of Revelation?
    What is the mark of the beast?

    I suspect you mean something different, because you say it has been going on for a long time. Just curious what you are thinking.
     
  4. cloudyday2

    cloudyday2 Generic Theist Supporter

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  5. cloudyday2

    cloudyday2 Generic Theist Supporter

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  6. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid Pushing the Pillars of the Status Quo! Supporter

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    Yes....my view is atypical from what you'll find among a majority of modern evangelicals, at least American ones anyway. But, I don't necessarily want to turn this into a book of Revelation thread, especially if what serves as historically textured, prophetic evidence for me doesn't in turn serve as the same for you.

    But yes, my views are a little different--let's just say that if you've seen the recent movie, The Circle, then you'll have a small taste of the terminus point that sits within the trajectory of my historical thought on these things, things which have been developing politically, socially, and technologically since the time of ancient Rome.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2017
  7. cloudyday2

    cloudyday2 Generic Theist Supporter

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    Anybody else have some God sightings?
     
  8. Adstar

    Adstar Well-Known Member

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    UFO's seem to be many different things.. Sometimes they seem to be cover for secret aircraft development.. Governments wanting people who witness advanced aircraft being tested in the sky as being alien space craft..

    But some UFO's i believe have a spiritual origin.. They are spirit manifestations.. They are cherub like spirits masqurading as visiting space craft to decieve people.. Maybe setting up the world for some future mass deception..

    Ezekiel 10: KJV
    8 "¶ And there appeared in the cherubims the form of a man’s hand under their wings. {9} And when I looked, behold the four wheels by the cherubims, one wheel by one cherub, and another wheel by another cherub: and the appearance of the wheels was as the colour of a beryl stone. {10} And as for their appearances, they four had one likeness, as if a wheel had been in the midst of a wheel. {11} When they went, they went upon their four sides; they turned not as they went, but to the place whither the head looked they followed it; they turned not as they went. {12} And their whole body, and their backs, and their hands, and their wings, and the wheels, were full of eyes round about, even the wheels that they four had.

    {13}As for the wheels, it was cried unto them in my hearing, O wheel. {14} And every one had four faces: the first face was the face of a cherub, and the second face was the face of a man, and the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle. {15} And the cherubims were lifted up. This is the living creature that I saw by the river of Chebar. {16} And when the cherubims went, the wheels went by them: and when the cherubims lifted up their wings to mount up from the earth, the same wheels also turned not from beside them. {17} When they stood, these stood; and when they were lifted up, these lifted up themselves also: for the spirit of the living creature was in them. {18}

    Then the glory of the LORD departed from off the threshold of the house, and stood over the cherubims. {19} And the cherubims lifted up their wings, and mounted up from the earth in my sight: when they went out, the wheels also were beside them, and every one stood at the door of the east gate of the LORD’S house; and the glory of the God of Israel was over them above. {20} This is the living creature that I saw under the God of Israel by the river of Chebar; and I knew that they were the cherubims. {21} Every one had four faces apiece, and every one four wings; and the likeness of the hands of a man was under their wings. {22} And the likeness of their faces was the same faces which I saw by the river of Chebar, their appearances and themselves: they went every one straight forward."
     
  9. cloudyday2

    cloudyday2 Generic Theist Supporter

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    Those are popular theories about UFOs. Another explanation that is probably more common than we might expect is government disinformation. In some cases the US government spreads false UFO reports for various reasons. For example, I read this book that was quite an eye-opener ( Project Beta: The Story of Paul Bennewitz, National Security, and the Creation of a Modern UFO Myth by Greg Bishop ). It describes how the US government persuaded several ufologists to spread false documents that seemed to support various UFO conspiracy theories. When US intelligence agencies with all their talent and manpower are deliberately spreading malarky, it becomes nearly impossible for part-time ufologists to distinguish the wheat from the chaff. :(

    But my real question was: can somebody supply some evidence for Christianity such as a miracle with multiple witnesses and so forth?
     
  10. cloudyday2

    cloudyday2 Generic Theist Supporter

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    ^ I wanted to contrast Christian apologetics with UFO research. Christians claim that God is a person, and that He wants to have friendships with humans. Claims of Christian miracles are critical, but nobody discusses them for some reason.
     
  11. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid Pushing the Pillars of the Status Quo! Supporter

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    Actually, I would liken our "personal relationship" with God to our complicated interactions with nature. Saying we love or know God is not too dissimilar from saying, "I'm going to hug a hurricane." :cool: Somewhere, when dealing with God...............language fails to capture the conceptual enormity or structure of our 'relationship' with God.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2017
  12. cloudyday2

    cloudyday2 Generic Theist Supporter

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    What about humans being made in God's image? Shouldn't we be able to relate to God better than we can relate to a hurricane? I don't like hugging, but any God worth His salt should be huggable.
     
  13. Adstar

    Adstar Well-Known Member

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    Well since you where a former Christian. I would assume that you read what Jesus said in the Gospels when He responded to people who where rejecting His message..

    Matthew 16: KJV
    1 "The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven. {2} He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. {3} And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? {4} A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed."

    Now Jesus did give signs and did miracles and they where seen by many.. But you have to understand that Jesus knew their minds.. If they where open and would be accepting of His Message...

    Matthew 13: KJV
    57 "And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house. {58} And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief."

    So with this the principle should be established that Gods will is for signs to be given to those who need help to take those final few steps to accepting the Message of God.. A message that God knows they are open too.. So signs are a gift from god to believers or people who God knows will be believers in the future.. To either reinforce the believers confidence or to fast track the future believer into accepting Gods will..

    Now if God does not want rejecters of His will to have His signs proven to them.. Don't you think He would organize things to ensure that signs could not be conclusively proven to those who are rejecting His will..
     
  14. cloudyday2

    cloudyday2 Generic Theist Supporter

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    John 20:24-30 RSV tells the story of doubting Thomas. Many people miss the fact that Jesus did provide the evidence that Thomas needed, so that Thomas could believe. Jesus didn't just say "sorry, Thomas, I don't have any patience with skeptics and critical thinkers."
    Bible Gateway passage: John 20:24-31 - Revised Standard Version

    So I would expect the ascended Jesus to have the same willingness to provide the evidence that skeptics need to believe.

    Why do Christian apologists neglect the topic of modern day empirical evidence for Christianity (i.e. miracles)? When I googled for "evidence for Christianity" and so forth, most of the links led to the philosophical arguments based on cosmology, morality, etc. Would a UFO skeptic be swayed by a philosophical argument that ET intelligent life is probably not unique to Earth and in some cases may be millions of years ahead of Earth in technology therefore some might be visiting Earth? No, a skeptic wants to know about the actual UFO reports and wants enough detail to rule-out alternate explanations. The same is true of Christian skeptics.

    There are some claims of Christian miracles in the past and present. Why are these so rarely discussed in apologetics? I know these claims won't satisfy everybody, but they might intrigue some people and provide the motivation to investigate Christianity more seriously.
     
  15. cloudyday2

    cloudyday2 Generic Theist Supporter

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    I think I botched this thread in my OP by mentioning UFOs. Probably most readers missed the larger point of Christian miracles. I may have to try again later without the UFO comparison. :(
     
  16. Adstar

    Adstar Well-Known Member

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    Thomas could not believe Jesus could have come back to life after being dead... At the time the Apostles did not understand the Way of salvation..

    But Jesus knew that Thomas could and would believe that the Death and Resurrection of Jesus would provide Atonement for the forgiveness of his sins and gift for him eternity with God in his perfect eternal existence..

    The essential belief is in the Atonement of Jesus and it being the only way to eternal existence with God.. Thomas and indeed all of the apostles never expected Jesus to come back to life.. At that time they did not understand the Way of salvation.. it was only after receiving the Holy Spirit upon the day of Pentecost that they fully understood the Way of Salvation..
    Yes and that evidence is the Message.. The Gospel because to those who are being saved it is Awesome.. But to those who are perishing it is either foolishness or evil.. Yes some are offended by the concept of Atonement.. Jesus paying the price for our sins.. A lot of people who self identify themselves as Christians do not really believe it..

    I am sure if you look up on utube for Christian miracles or stuff like casting out demons you will see video's proporting to show such events.. But for the person who is rejecting the Way of salvation all such video's can be explained away as scams.. Or some crazy people with psychological problems.. Most reports by people of spiritual experiences can be explained away as hallucinations or dreams .. Near death experiences are explained away as the effects of oxygen depletion upon the brain of a dying person..

    So in the end if a person is rejecting the Way of salvation then they will find explanations to reassure themselves that all such manifestations of signs are explainable by some natural cause.. Or as lies, or scams, or delusions of religious people..

    Because we Christians know that they are not profitable because we know that people who are rejecting the message of God are not going to be swayed by any signs and wonders from God..

    Signs and miracles from God are only of reassuring benefit to Christians who already believe the message of God or people who do not yet believe but are foreknown by God, that they will believe..
     
  17. cloudyday2

    cloudyday2 Generic Theist Supporter

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    O.k., but what makes Christian apologists think that such people might be swayed by philosophical arguments for the necessity of at least a passive/deist God? Why should anybody even care about a deist God beyond mild curiosity?

    At least the miracles imply an active God, and the Christian context of some miracles helps to validate a Christian-specific God.
     
  18. Adstar

    Adstar Well-Known Member

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    Christians believe that those who will love the message of God will be swayed by it.. We are not mind readers nor do we have God like foreknowledge of what people are going to accept the Love of the truth and what people are going to reject the love of the truth.. So we share the message of God with anyone and everyone and leave it up to the Holy Spirit of God to do the convincing of those who are destined to be with the LORD forever..

    I am not sure why you included the term passive/ deist God ??? I only speak about the God of Abraham.. I have no idea why you are calling The God of Abraham passive? or deist? The God of Abraham is not passive and does act in this world...

    God does do miracles.. I have experienced them in my own life..
     
  19. cloudyday2

    cloudyday2 Generic Theist Supporter

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    Deist because that is all the philosophical arguments usually imply. Convincing somebody that the universe needs a divine creator doesn't convince them that this God is still active today in any way.

    Ideally there should be something analogous to Project Blue Book except that it deals with reports of miracles. Just as MUFON today (and the Air Force previously) has trained volunteers who investigate reports of UFOs, this "Project Bible Book" could have investigations to rule-out the obvious malarky. That would give the remaining reports more credibility. Otherwise they are lost in the sea of nonsense.
     
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