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To Ordain in Hebrew is 'to fill' or fulfill, to accomplish, or to perfect. It isn't God who is responsible for filling the land with sin, but man (Jer 16:8, etc.)

To ordain in Greek is to set down, that is, to put someone or something in charge and give authority and standing, which then enables that person to rule. I can find no scripture that states God -gave- sin authority over us, appointing it to rule us, as opposed to our subjection to sin being the fault of Adam.

"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man..." Rom 5:17 (Not, 'death reigned by the ordination of God that man might trespass'..)

To ordain, in English, is to order or officially decree, or to set someone up in charge.

Has God ever officially decreed that man must sin? Has God ever set up sin as ruler over us? No! Christ died to free us from slavery to sin and become our Master. Christ died to free us from the penalty of sin. That was by the decreed will of His Father, not against God's decrees.

It is not God that ordained sin, but man that embraced sin.

Indeed, to sin is to 'miss the mark' of God's righteousness - like an arrow missing the target. If God ever ordained a man to sin, then the mark would change - meaning whatever the man hit by the ordination of God would be the new mark and not a sin. And since we know the character of God does not change, this is an impossibility.
 
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Hammster

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thank you

and then my question is faith in what?

Jesus dying on the cross to pay for our sins?

Please clarify so that i can understand what you mean
Not faith in what necessarily, but faith in Who. Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. So it's faith in God. For us it's faith in Christ because of what He's done. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.
 
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Monk Brendan

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It may be diverse, but there's only one way to be justified. One isn't saved because they believe Calvinism is correct.

The point, I suppose, is an attention to accurately reflect God and His plan for His glory.

Why not let God glorify Himself. He has been doing it for the past 14 billion years.

Justification comes by faith--if you don't have faith, no matter how much you quote Calvin, or Luther, or any of the other reformers, you will not get to heaven. Justification comes from BELIEVING and accepting God's will for yourself, and not just being able to quote Calvin's Tulip propositions. To accept, man must have free will. Calvinism denies free will exists. You see, even the devil believes, and shudders. No free will, no satan. no free will, never would we have left paradise. No free will, no need for Christ to come to earth at all.

Calvin's concepts careen on cracked ice.
 
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Hammster

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Ok, but doesn't that make Calvinism, and all theological distinctions, wholly irrelevant? If a fully persuaded Lutheran, Calvinist, Catholic, Methodist, Anabaptist, Assyrian / Nestorian and Oriental Orthodox Christian are all automatically "elect" simply by having faith in Christ, with no regard to the vast differences between their respective theologies, practices, and ecclesiologies, doesn't that basically nullify not only the neccesity of making Truth in Christian thought plain (something that I presume was very important to Calvin, who began life in the Catholic Church), but also of praxis and thought?
I don't think it's irrelevant to attempt to accurately reflect who God is in order to glorify Him. It may not matter on some fronts. No one gets saved by believing in Reformed Theology. But that doesn't make it unimportant.
 
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Hammster

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as many words or sentences as it takes to clearly answer the question in a manner that the questioner can understand what you mean
That's what I do.
 
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Not faith in what necessarily, but faith in Who. Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. So it's faith in God. For us it's faith in Christ because of what He's done. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

First of all, satan believes, but cannot be saved. Anyone can believe all they want to, but without accepting God's grace, we're toast!

And I can believe that 2+2=4 till the cows come home, but that is not going to get me to heaven, either.
 
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Hammster

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Why not let God glorify Himself. He has been doing it for the past 14 billion years.

Justification comes by faith--if you don't have faith, no matter how much you quote Calvin, or Luther, or any of the other reformers, you will not get to heaven. Justification comes from BELIEVING and accepting God's will for yourself, and not just being able to quote Calvin's Tulip propositions. To accept, man must have free will. Calvinism denies free will exists. You see, even the devil believes, and shudders. No free will, no satan. no free will, never would we have left paradise. No free will, no need for Christ to come to earth at all.

Calvin's concepts careen on cracked ice.
Okay.
 
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First of all, satan believes, but cannot be saved. Anyone can believe all they want to, but without accepting God's grace, we're toast!

And I can believe that 2+2=4 till the cows come home, but that is not going to get me to heaven, either.
Okay.
 
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Truthfrees

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Not faith in what necessarily, but faith in Who. Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. So it's faith in God. For us it's faith in Christ because of what He's done. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.
so were believers in God regenerates before the cross - in the same way we are regenerates now after the cross?

there is no difference in the state of regeneration between ot and nt?

God came to live in them permanently like God comes to live in us permanently?

they were equal to us in every way?

were they regenerated the minute they believed in God?

are we regenerated the minute we believe in Christ?

if you say yes to all this then my 2nd question is why did Jesus die on the cross?
 
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so were believers in God regenerates before the cross - in the same way we are regenerates now after the cross?

there is no difference in the state of regeneration between ot and nt?

God came to live in them permanently like God comes to live in us permanently?

they were equal to us in every way?

were they regenerated the minute they believed in God?

are we regenerated the minute we believe in Christ?

if you say yes to all this then my 2nd question is why did Jesus die on the cross?
They were justified by faith. That's Paul's argument in Romans, and he was saved before the law. It wasn't based on any works. The Saints in the OT looked forward to the cross. It was obvious that the OT sacrificial system was not enough, otherwise they would not have had to keep repeating it. So they were looking forward to the Messiah.

Jesus died on the cross as the perfect sacrifice for sin. So while they looked forward, we look back.
 
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Truthfrees

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They were justified by faith. That's Paul's argument in Romans, and he was saved before the law. It wasn't based on any works. The Saints in the OT looked forward to the cross. It was obvious that the OT sacrificial system was not enough, otherwise they would not have had to keep repeating it. So they were looking forward to the Messiah.

Jesus died on the cross as the perfect sacrifice for sin. So while they looked forward, we look back.
amen

when were they regenerated - the minute they believed God existed and loved/accepted God?

when were we regenerated - the minute we believed Jesus was the Son of God who died for our sins?
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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Within Calvinism, how does one know that one is elect? Does having faith in Christ automatically mean that a person is among the elect? Is it a possibility to have faith in Christ and not be one of the elect? How can a person with faith in Christ and who even subscribes to Calvinism theologically know whether he is or is not elect?

I'm not a Calvinist, but here is a good answer to that by a Calvinist: How can I know if I am one of the elect?

The short answer is that to most Calvinists, you would know you were among the elect because you have faith, and only the elect receive faith, the spiritual regeneration to have faith, or the irresistible grace of the spirit compelling you to place faith in Christ, etc. The method varies a bit by the individual Calvinist, but in general, Calvinists view faith as a definitive sign one is elect.

John Calvin himself proposed several signs of being elect:
- the calling of God, a form of subjective inward certainty that God has chosen you for salvation
- knowledge of God’s name
- reflecting the process of sanctification
- communion with Christ
- daily blessings from God

There have been Calvinists in history who did not see faith as evidence enough for election, though. (Cowper, for example) A number of Calvinists hold to the theory that it's unknowable whether one is elect or not.

However, most Calvinist hold to some version of the belief presented in the Canons of Dort:
"Assurance of their eternal and unchangeable election to salvation is given to the chosen in due time, though by various stages and in differing measure. Such assurance comes not by inquisitive searching into the hidden and deep things of God, but by noticing within themselves, with spiritual joy and holy delight, the unmistakable fruits of election pointed out in God’s Word—such as a true faith in Christ, a childlike fear of God, a godly sorrow for their sins, a hunger and thirst for righteousness, and so on."

Not all Calvinists believe that this assurance by faith happens immediately. The Westminster Confessions explain, "This infallible assurance does not so belong to the essence of faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and conflict with many difficulties, before he be partaker of it: yet, being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation in the right use of ordinary means, attain thereunto.

The issue gets a lot murkier when it comes to the topic of former Christians. To a Calvinist, it's impossible to start in faith but later reject Christ (the P in TULIP.) As such, anyone who claims faith in Christ but later rejects faith is viewed as never having had faith to begin with.

This leads to cases of former proclaimed Christians, some even who once held to the Reformed tradition, who once proclaimed they were personally assured in their faith - but then publically rejected Christ. Other Calvinists view them as never having really had faith to start with. Due to this, at least a few Calvinists struggle with whether they or not personally elect if others can claim assurance due to faith but then later turn from God, as the question becomes for them 'how can I know my faith is genuine?.'
 
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amen

when were they regenerated - the minute they believed God existed and loved/accepted God?

when were we regenerated - the minute we believed Jesus was the Son of God who died for our sins?
Regeneration, by necessity, precedes faith. We are dead in our trespasses and sins. But God makes us alive.
 
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Truthfrees

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Regeneration, by necessity, precedes faith. We are dead in our trespasses and sins. But God makes us alive.
thanks - i forgot calvin says regeneration precedes faith.

what is the shortest comprehensive description of regeneration and the scripture for it?

i'm looking for something like:

- the Holy Spirit indwells a person and makes their human spirit perfect and new - creating a brand new creation in Christ - with a spirit that perfectly agrees with everything God says - even though the flesh sometimes has trouble conforming with what God says - 2 Corinthians 5:17, Romans 8:16, Galatians 5:24-26, Ephesians 4:22
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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Regeneration, by necessity, precedes faith. We are dead in our trespasses and sins. But God makes us alive.

Regeneration follows faith, as it is Holy Spirit working in us to make a new creation. The general conviction and ministry of the Holy Spirit precede faith.

"But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." (Jn 20:31) and "the gospel reveals the righteousness of God that comes by faith" (Rom 1:17) show that God has given scripture and the evidence of miracles to give evidence of Christ. "He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment" (John 16:8) shows that one of the ministries of the Holy Spirit is convicting the world of sin. "I will draw all people to myself" (Jn 12:32) shows that Christ, by His death, was lifted up before the world as their Saviour, and by that revelation and influence all men are drawn to Him. "Faith comes by hearing" (Rom 10:17) shows that the gospel is a further grace God gives to all who hear it, presenting the person and work of Christ to them.

After we come to Christ in faith, we receive the Holy Spirit and become new creations.

"Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them. By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive..." John 7:38-39

Belief, then the spirit and rivers of living water.

"Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come." II Cor 5:17

It's required to be "In Christ" to be a new creature - not the other way around.

"But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ....For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit." Eph 2:13-18

The blood of Christ (not regeneration by the Spirit) allowed us to be in Christ Jesus (Through faith). Once in Christ, we have access to the Father by the Spirit.

"“Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift the Father promised, which you have heard Me discuss. for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now...” Acts 1:4-5

"For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body--whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink." I Cor 12"13

Belief, then baptism (immersion/washing) in the Spirit, then drinking of the Spirit so as to participate in the body of Christ.


"Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day." II Cor 4:16

Who are being renewed daily? Believers.

"At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone."
(Tit 3:3-8)

The washing and rebirth do not precede faith, they are part of the process of salvation.

"As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." Eph 2:1-10

"In his great mercy, he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time....Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls." -I Pet 1:3-9

What does it mean that it is by grace we have been saved, through faith, and that this is not of ourselves but is the gift of God?


Related:
Can natural, fallen man do anything that is spiritually good?
Is total depravity biblical?
Is human will capable of choosing or rejecting Jesus?
What does it mean that Jesus is the author and perfecter of our faith?
What are the doctrines of grace?
 
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Hammster

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thanks - i forgot calvin says regeneration precedes faith.

what is the shortest comprehensive description of regeneration and the scripture for it?

i'm looking for something like:

- the Holy Spirit indwells a person and makes their human spirit perfect and new - creating a brand new creation in Christ - with a spirit that perfectly agrees with everything God says - even though the flesh sometimes has trouble conforming with what God says - 2 Corinthians 5:17, Romans 8:16, Galatians 5:24-26, Ephesians 4:22
I think one of the clearest examples is this:

“And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:1-5‬ ‭NASB‬‬

We were dead. God made us alive by grace.
 
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Truthfrees

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I think one of the clearest examples is this:

“And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:1-5‬ ‭NASB‬‬

We were dead. God made us alive by grace.
amen

does calvin have an explanation of how this change happens - like the charismatic/pentecostal explanation i gave?
 
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amen

does calvin have an explanation of how this change happens - like the charismatic/pentecostal explanation i gave?
I think scripture does. I'm not too familiar with Calvin's works.

“And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them. And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh,”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭11:19‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
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Truthfrees

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I think scripture does. I'm not too familiar with Calvin's works.

“And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them. And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh,”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭11:19‬ ‭NASB‬‬
amen

does reform theology get into stating the particulars of what happens to someone who is regenerated?

if i asked a reformed what is regeneration? what would the official statement be?
 
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I have a friend who used to be an Arminiust. His two daughters rejected Christ and have fallen the way of the world. He was so dejected by this turn of affairs in his life he began reading the Institutes of Calvin and began to believe in the TULIP of Dort. Why do people embrace Calvinism? Because it removes personal responsibility from their shoulders. In truth we all have to make our choices and he believed as a father he was responsible for their being trained in the knowledge of God. And they were, but they chose the world and sin over God. People reject Christ because they want to hold onto their own wills, not realizing that their wills are not their wills but Satan's. Coming to Christ and embracing the cross brings us to what God created us for and we find our wills in Him.

[statement erased because it was thoughtless and irresponsible to say] It is a demonic doctrine that abdicates personal responsibility for the growth of the Church.
Hi Brother ..I used to be a "Calvinist" of sorts but after reading of the affair regarding Michael Servetus, things started to unravel. ( Not sure how a sinner ...any sinner and enemy of God, saved by God's mercy can treat anyone differently than how God treated them . .I still hold to God's sovereignty and in my experience the Lord Jesus actually came and found me when I was lost. Not sure if I am an Arminium either though ...seems that many arminiams have become worldly and wealthy Methodist , etc and calvanist have become worldy and wealthy Baptist / Presbyterians ..so my pint and question is . Does your theology matter if you still love the world ? I mean what difference does our " theology" make if we be decieved ? For that matter what is the difference in a deceived Methodist , Baptist , Presbyterian/ Reformed , Buddist , Islamic , Judism or atheist ?
I think maybe I "get" election ...meaning "grace" shown through God's goodness ....mercy , not righteousness ..but I also think that mercy and grace has an accountability piece ..it should work humility and thankfulness ..not self righteousness . You know , in the ten virgins parable , they all were espoused to the bridegroom but 5 let their oil go out ..meaning they had it at some point. Does this speak to Calvinism at all ?
 
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