Quotes relating to EO view of humanity

deborahjoy429

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Well, this group hasn't exactly been active lately, but I'll give this a shot anyhow.

Does anyone know some good short quotes from or supportive of the Eastern Orthodox view of humanity contra total depravity? (EO emphasis is more on the side of essential goodness that's been tainted.)

I might be able to use one to provide context for a poem I wrote.

Thank you!
Deb
 
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Lukaris

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St. Maximos the Confessor ( 7th century):



2). When God brought into being natures endowed with intelligence and intellect He communicated to them, in His supreme goodness, four of the divine attributes by which He sustains, pro tects and preserves created things. These attributes ;,xe being, eternal being, goodness and wisdom. Of the four He granted the first two, being and eternal being, to their essence, and the second two, goodness and wisdom, to their volitive faculty, so that what He is in

THIRD CENTURY ON LOVE
His essence the creature may become by participation. This is why man is said to have been created in the image and likeness of God (cf. Gen. I : 26). He is made in the image of God, since his being is in the image of God's being, and his eternal being is in the image of God's eternal being (in the sense that, though not without origin, it is nevertheless without end). He is also made in the likeness of God, since he is good in the likeness of God's goodness, and wise in the likeness of God's wisdom, God being good and wise by nature, and man by grace. Every intelligent nature is in the image of God, but only the good and the wise attain His likeness.
2 6 . All beings endowed with intelligence and intellect are either angelic or human.


From Philokalia vol.2 ( 3rd century, as in 3rd set of 100 texts,) #25,



 
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deborahjoy429

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St. Maximos the Confessor ( 7th century):



2). When God brought into being natures endowed with intelligence and intellect He communicated to them, in His supreme goodness, four of the divine attributes by which He sustains, pro tects and preserves created things. These attributes ;,xe being, eternal being, goodness and wisdom. Of the four He granted the first two, being and eternal being, to their essence, and the second two, goodness and wisdom, to their volitive faculty, so that what He is in

THIRD CENTURY ON LOVE
His essence the creature may become by participation. This is why man is said to have been created in the image and likeness of God (cf. Gen. I : 26). He is made in the image of God, since his being is in the image of God's being, and his eternal being is in the image of God's eternal being (in the sense that, though not without origin, it is nevertheless without end). He is also made in the likeness of God, since he is good in the likeness of God's goodness, and wise in the likeness of God's wisdom, God being good and wise by nature, and man by grace. Every intelligent nature is in the image of God, but only the good and the wise attain His likeness.
2 6 . All beings endowed with intelligence and intellect are either angelic or human.


From Philokalia vol.2 ( 3rd century, as in 3rd set of 100 texts,) #25,




Thank you! I’m not sure I can excerpt a small enough section of this without distorting the message, but it’s a good lead. My systematic theologies have no EO quotes on this is at all. And most of the quotes I’ve been able to scrounge up so far are explicitly on theories, which isn’t quite what I want to emphasize. But I’m going to chew this one.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Well, this group hasn't exactly been active lately, but I'll give this a shot anyhow.

Does anyone know some good short quotes from or supportive of the Eastern Orthodox view of humanity contra total depravity? (EO emphasis is more on the side of essential goodness that's been tainted.)

I might be able to use one to provide context for a poem I wrote.

Thank you!
Deb
Fr Alexander Schmemann used to say, “Always remember: man is good, man is fallen, man is redeemed.”
 
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deborahjoy429

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Fr Alexander Schmemann used to say, “Always remember: man is good, man is fallen, man is redeemed.”
That’s lovely. Won’t suit my purpose, but I like it! I may end up using Maximus the confessor somehow…. Thank you!
 
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ArmyMatt

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I was referring specifically to the EO community on this forum. The most recent posts I see are from more than a decade ago.
we’ve been posting way more recently and pretty regularly. maybe you are looking at our older, pinned posts? our second most recent thread started yesterday.
 
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deborahjoy429

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we’ve been posting way more recently and pretty regularly. maybe you are looking at our older, pinned posts? our second most recent thread started yesterday.
Huh! Looking around I do see that there are discussion sections under St. Justin, St. Athanasius, and St. Basil. And I guess there are more recent threads there. I thought those were stickies, not sections (I'm new to CF). Oh! And I see "the normal threads" that are suggested are in fact within the EO forum. I thought those were suggestions of discussions from the wider board. This place is hard to navigate at first! But I see. Thx!
 
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deborahjoy429

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sorry! I will keep digging.
No, it was a good guess and a good quote to hold onto--just won't do what I need it to.
I had no intention of providing glosses on this poem, but sometimes I hit problems because poets and readers today are largely biblically illiterate and may not pick up on most biblical allusions and so miss... a lot. Sometimes an extra something can point them in the right direction.

D
 
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ArmyMatt

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Huh! Looking around I do see that there are discussion sections under St. Justin, St. Athanasius, and St. Basil. And I guess there are more recent threads there. I thought those were stickies, not sections (I'm new to CF). Oh! And I see "the normal threads" that are suggested are in fact within the EO forum. I thought those were suggestions of discussions from the wider board. This place is hard to navigate at first! But I see. Thx!
haha, yeah, it can take a minute to figure out. but this is a pretty active subforum, so please stick around!
 
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ArmyMatt

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No, it was a good guess and a good quote to hold onto--just won't do what I need it to.
I had no intention of providing glosses on this poem, but sometimes I hit problems because poets and readers today are largely biblically illiterate and may not pick up on most biblical allusions and so miss... a lot. Sometimes an extra something can point them in the right direction.

D
gotcha
 
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deborahjoy429

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haha, yeah, it can take a minute to figure out. but this is a pretty active subforum, so please stick around!
Thanks. I'm not actually EO but definitely like some of your thought.

If I had to sum up what I was hoping to find in a quote, it would be something like, "Our theological anthropology must be rooted in Creation, not the fall." But I can't really quote myself--ha--and would love to hear it in the rich tones of another's voice. I know EO tends to get this point right a lot more frequently than evangelicals.
 
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deborahjoy429

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I might possibly be able to use a couple of lines from this:
The perfect form of goodness is here to be seen by His both bringing man into being from nothing, and fully supplying him with all good gifts: but since the list of individual good gifts is a long one, it is out of the question to apprehend it numerically. The language of Scripture therefore expresses it concisely by a comprehensive phrase, in saying that man was made “in the image of God”: for this is the same as to say that He made human nature participant in all good; for if the Deity is the fulness of good, and this is His image, then the image finds its resemblance to the Archetype in being filled with all good. -- On the Making of Man, St. Gregory of Nyssa
 
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deborahjoy429

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More Gregory:

Sin, indeed, is a miscarriage, not a quality of human nature: just as disease and deformity are not congenital to it in the first instance, but are its unnatural accretions, so activity in the direction of sin is to be thought of as a mere mutilation of the goodness innate in us; it is not found to be itself a real thing, but we see it only in the absence of that goodness. –Letter 17 by St. Gregory of Nyssa ,Translated by William Moore. From Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Vol. 5. Edited by Philip Schaff and Henry Wace. (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1893.) Revised and edited for New Advent by Kevin Knight.<CHURCH FATHERS: Letter 17 (Gregory of Nyssa)>.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Thanks. I'm not actually EO but definitely like some of your thought.

If I had to sum up what I was hoping to find in a quote, it would be something like, "Our theological anthropology must be rooted in Creation, not the fall." But I can't really quote myself--ha--and would love to hear it in the rich tones of another's voice. I know EO tends to get this point right a lot more frequently than evangelicals.
gotcha, then I say a place to start would be the Christological Councils, especially Ephesus through Constantinople III.
 
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Lukaris

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What seems to get somewhat bypassed in the total depravity doctrine is the role of Satan in deceiving man to disobedience and also influencing Cain to murder Abel.

St. Irenaeus ( about 175 AD) when preaching from Genesis seems to focus on the role of Satan in the fall of Adam & the depravity of Cain:






15. But, lest man should conceive thoughts too high, and be exalted and uplifted, as though he had no lord, because of the authority and freedom granted to him, and so should transgress against his maker God, overpassing his measure, and entertain selfish imaginings of pride in opposition to God; a law was given to him by God, in order that he might perceive that he had as lord the Lord of all. And He set him certain limitations, so that, if he should keep the commandment of God, he should ever remain such as he was, that is to say, immortal; but, if he should not keep it, he should become mortal and be dissolved to earth from whence his formation had been taken. Now the commandment was this: Of every tree that is in the Paradise thou shalt freely eat; but of that tree alone from which is the knowledge of good 84and evil, of it thou shalt not eat; for in the day thou eatest, thou shalt surely die.

16. This commandment the man kept not, but was disobedient to God, being led astray by the angel who, for the great gifts of God which He had given to man, was envious and jealous of him,107 and both brought himself to nought and made man sinful, persuading him to disobey the commandment of God. So the angel, becoming by his falsehood the author and originator of sin, himself was struck down, having offended against God, and man he caused to be cast out from Paradise. And, because through the guidance of his disposition he apostatized and departed from God, he was called Satan, according to the Hebrew word; that is, Apostate:108 a but he is also called Slanderer. Now God cursed the serpent which carried and conveyed the Slanderer; and this malediction came on the beast himself and on the angel hidden and concealed in him, even on Satan; and man He put away from His presence, removing him and making him to dwell on the way to Paradise109 at that time; because Paradise receiveth not the sinful.

17. And when they were put out of Paradise, Adam and his wife. Eve fell into many troubles of anxious grief, going about with sorrow and toil 85and lamentation in this world. For under the beams of this sun man tilled the earth, and it put forth thorns and thistles, the punishment of sin. Then was fulfilled that which was written: Adam knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain; and after him she bare Abel. Now the apostate angel, who led man into disobedience and made him sinful and caused his expulsion from Paradise, not content with the first evil, wrought a second on the brothers; for filling Cain with his spirit he made him a fratricide. And so Abel died, slain by his brother; signifying thenceforth that certain should be persecuted and oppressed and slain, the unrighteous slaying and persecuting the righteous. And upon this God was angered yet more, and cursed Cain; and it came to pass that everyone of that race in successive generations was made like to the begetter. And God raised up another son to Adam, instead of Abel who was slain.

18. And for a very long while wickedness extended and spread, and reached and laid hold upon the whole race of mankind, until a very small seed of righteousness remained among them



 
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