Quiverfull stuff - and "God providing"

[DZoolander]

Segueing from the other thread about polygamy, huge numbers of kids, etc... I'm curious as to your thoughts about the whole "Quiverfull" thing.

...and as a tangent..."God providing"

With respect to the Quiverfull thing - I suppose if you have the means to support the children - have as many as you like. It ain't my cup of tea (I'll be happy if we have two) - but if you want more far be it for me to stand in your way or judge.

What I find really relevant, however, is the idea of 'God will provide'. I really make no secret of the fact that I have a lot of deist leanings. I don't believe there's some guiding hand at work or that God plays an active role in people's lives. My attitude is that God has set the stage - you're free to be as righteous/and or evil as you want to be - and everything just kinda plays itself out by circumstance.

If you are like those Duggar people - the fact you have 19 kids isn't God blessing you. It's that in the circumstantial roulette of life you're two really fertile people that are also religious and misinterpret your continued pregnancies as God working His hand in your lives...so you keep on just pumping 'em out. But - in reality - it's little more than a series of circumstantial coincidences void of any guiding hand.

Same thing goes with virtually every other thing in life.

Fortunately, however, the Duggars have the means (albeit with some pretty shady, IMHO, tax stuff) to maintain their kids. Chalk one more thing up for fortuitous happenstance.. But - what about those people that choose the quiverfull movement that also attribute it to God's will - but by circumstance don't have the means to support those kids and become a burden upon society? What about those people that accept the gifts of society and erroneously attribute it to God's will - and keep adding to the burden they incur by pumping out more kids?

The interaction of human perception, religion and God is a fascinating one to me. One of the best things I ever read - which formed many of my perceptions of how to handle issues with religion - was a piece called "The Grand Inquisitor" by Dostoevsky...from his book "The Brothers Karamazov"

If you've got 15 minutes to kill - it's a GREAT read.

https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/pol116/grand.htm

I'm curious as to your thoughts on that range of issues...lol

 

[4Bear]

I believe God provides because I have had some very personal experiences where God's fingerprints were all over it (so to speak).

 

[4Bear]

I practiced QF BTW, but have moved away from that theological position.

(Patriarchal husband just started looking over my shoulder- he's still QF. He just called me a "naughty and disobedient child" and quoted a Pope saying "the Father still loves His wayward and disobedient children" ROFLOL )

 

[4Bear]

Oh, I'm >50 BTW so the womb has closed up shop. But I don't advocate QF for my children (several of whom are grown up and married).

 

[Luther073082]

Can't really read the link, but I just want to comment on something.

I'm not in the quiver full movement or anything close. That having been said I think there is a big difference between trusting that God will provide for what is his will and using "God will provide" as an excuse for poor planning or no planning, and/or using it as an excuse for one's own desires.

I trust God with the things that are out of my control. So in a sense I say "God will provide" in regards to that.

But what annoys me is when people say "God will provide" as an excuse for not planning for the things they can control, or worse when they use it to defend a selfish and stupid decision.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

I subscribe to the ideal of "trust in God, but lock your car."

I don't doubt for a second that God provides. My life is a testimony to God providing for my needs, family, relationship, etc. That said, there's something to be said for trusting for God to provide and working to make it easier for him to help you to do so.

My opinion on quiverfull is outlined in the other thread, and I don't doubt that they can provide for their kids financially. The rest of it, as I said before, I have questions.

 

[Hetta]

I personally know a family that is 'quiverful', where they have 10 children. God has always met their needs, and they are a happy family. They have homeschooled all of their children, and several have gone to college, and some have gone into the military, etc. These are not the kind of fundamentalist, obsessive types that I have sometimes seen, where the girls 'serve' the boys and have only one direction in adult life - which is marriage. These parents are more 'liberal' than that, and have encouraged the girls to make their own decisions.

I have only seen a little of the Duggars. While they are a good example to set before the world in some respects, I thought that the fact that they continued to conceive babies after losing at least one (I don't know their current status) was foolish. If you want to look for God's hand on your life, perhaps you should consider that a warning? But, as I said, maybe she had another 3 after that.

I don't have a problem with these families. I just like to know that they aren't indoctrinating their girls to become slaves.

 

[dysert]

Segueing from the other thread about polygamy, huge numbers of kids, etc... I'm curious as to your thoughts about the whole "Quiverfull" thing.

...and as a tangent..."God providing"

With respect to the Quiverfull thing - I suppose if you have the means to support the children - have as many as you like. It ain't my cup of tea (I'll be happy if we have two) - but if you want more far be it for me to stand in your way or judge.

What I find really relevant, however, is the idea of 'God will provide'. I really make no secret of the fact that I have a lot of deist leanings. I don't believe there's some guiding hand at work or that God plays an active role in people's lives. My attitude is that God has set the stage - you're free to be as righteous/and or evil as you want to be - and everything just kinda plays itself out by circumstance.

If you are like those Duggar people - the fact you have 19 kids isn't God blessing you. It's that in the circumstantial roulette of life you're two really fertile people that are also religious and misinterpret your continued pregnancies as God working His hand in your lives...so you keep on just pumping 'em out. But - in reality - it's little more than a series of circumstantial coincidences void of any guiding hand.

Same thing goes with virtually every other thing in life.

Fortunately, however, the Duggars have the means (albeit with some pretty shady, IMHO, tax stuff) to maintain their kids. Chalk one more thing up for fortuitous happenstance.. But - what about those people that choose the quiverfull movement that also attribute it to God's will - but by circumstance don't have the means to support those kids and become a burden upon society? What about those people that accept the gifts of society and erroneously attribute it to God's will - and keep adding to the burden they incur by pumping out more kids?

The interaction of human perception, religion and God is a fascinating one to me. One of the best things I ever read - which formed many of my perceptions of how to handle issues with religion - was a piece called "The Grand Inquisitor" by Dostoevsky...from his book "The Brothers Karamazov"

If you've got 15 minutes to kill - it's a GREAT read.

https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/pol116/grand.htm

I'm curious as to your thoughts on that range of issues...lol

I haven't read your link yet, but I intend to. I did want to give my 2 cents, though. I too have deist leanings. I have no doubt that God *can* provide, but it's clear that He doesn't always do so. Look at how many people in the world are dying from bad water, malnutrition, etc. The minute you say God will provide you have to ask why is He providing for me and not the millions of folks He's not providing for. We have two kids, and financially it was difficult just getting them grown and through college (and weddings).

If I'm not mistaken, the whole quiverfull thing is from the Psalms, which I trust we all know is poetic and not didactic. I seriously doubt that I'd have been happy with more kids that there's no way we would have been able to properly support.

 

[Luther073082]

I personally know a family that is 'quiverful', where they have 10 children. God has always met their needs, and they are a happy family. They have homeschooled all of their children, and several have gone to college, and some have gone into the military, etc. These are not the kind of fundamentalist, obsessive types that I have sometimes seen, where the girls 'serve' the boys and have only one direction in adult life - which is marriage. These parents are more 'liberal' than that, and have encouraged the girls to make their own decisions.

I have only seen a little of the Duggars. While they are a good example to set before the world in some respects, I thought that the fact that they continued to conceive babies after losing at least one (I don't know their current status) was foolish. If you want to look for God's hand on your life, perhaps you should consider that a warning? But, as I said, maybe she had another 3 after that.

I don't have a problem with these families. I just like to know that they aren't indoctrinating their girls to become slaves.

I'm not concerned about the indoctrination of girls to become slaves because I havn't really seen that personally. Maybe you have, but I think that's more of a fear of certain Christian ideals being taken too far then it has to do with reality.

My concern with these is actually that the older children are forced to become co-parents with the adults in these situations.

I get that teaching kids responsibility is good. But there is a such thing as taking that too far and saddling them with a responsibility that they did not create for themselves and shouldn't have to bear.

And what bothers me is that since they have so many children, the only way they can effectively care for all of them is by forcing their older children to take on an large portion, perhaps somewhere in the range of 50 to 75% of the parenting responsibilities, for children that they did not conceive or bear.

I'm very happy with my life now, I have a wife and a child on the way. But at the same time, I'm glad that I got that time when I was a teenager and a young adult to have fun with friends without being saddled with responsibilities to a wife and children. And you can certainly do this without getting yourself in trouble as I did.

We are not in a situation or culture that requires kids to be grown ups by the time they are 14. And there is benefit to that.

 

[DZoolander]

I dunno.

For example - growing up I had a buddy whose family did not have much of anything. They weren't a family of means - but they were great people. I love their mom - although I think she's kind of delusional - because she's all about the "God has proven that He provides." in their lives.

The reason I say that is because the stuff she willingly cites to me as examples of it - in my mind at least - have nothing to do with God.

For example - the tuition at our school. They could in no way afford it - but the Church hierarchy got together and worked out a special tuition plan (basically - no tuition - but more of a barter thing) that got her sons a great education. She talks about that as God's hand working it's way in life - and that her sons - despite their lack of means - did not go without.

I'm sorry - but that was the work of man based upon man's compassion for one another.

Another thing that she cites as an example is one time they were really on hard times. She got talked into coming to a raffle at the church - which she didn't WANT to go to because they couldn't afford it - and she "won" the grand prize (which was a few thousand dollars worth of various things/necessities/gift cards/etc).

I know for a *fact* that it was rigged - and the "raffle" was simply a way of the church folk being able to extend charity to her family - because they were too prideful to accept charity knowingly.

If you listen to her - it's an example of how God worked his hand - despite her "human objections" to going to the raffle - and how it shows that He will provide when needed.

Once again - that was human compassion at work - and nothing else.

Every example I've ever come across when people talk about "God's hand at play" can similarly be reduced down to "Well, actually, that was the goodness of people."

...except for dumb luck sort of things.

and I really do have to attribute some things to dumb luck. Because - if you take the stand that God is active in your life and choosing to do things for you - then you also have to take the stand that when crappy things happen to other people - that there was something undeserving about them - or that God chose *not* to extend them His grace.

...which is why you see many times in Churches people with crappy situations being made to feel like there's some shortcoming on their end. They didn't pray hard enough - they didn't repent sincerely enough - etc...else this crappy thing wouldn't be happening to them. And - frankly - that's a lot of hogwash.

At least - that's what I've always seen.

 

[Hetta]

My concern with these is actually that the older children are forced to become co-parents with the adults in these situations.

This is true of almost all families to a certain extent, unless they are single child families or multiple births. Even in my own home, the eldest child has been requested to "babysit" and to take on responsibility, and we do not have a "full quiver". In my family of birth, my eldest sister was "the boss" of the kids and we all knew it! Again, not a full quiver family, but still, that is the pecking order of a family. The eldest child is next in line after the parents, and then the next one and the next one ..

 

[dysert]

I dunno.

For example - growing up I had a buddy whose family did not have much of anything. They weren't a family of means - but they were great people. I love their mom - although I think she's kind of delusional - because she's all about the "God has proven that He provides." in their lives.

The reason I say that is because the stuff she willingly cites to me as examples of it - in my mind at least - have nothing to do with God.

For example - the tuition at our school. They could in no way afford it - but the Church hierarchy got together and worked out a special tuition plan (basically - no tuition - but more of a barter thing) that got her sons a great education. She talks about that as God's hand working it's way in life - and that her sons - despite their lack of means - did not go without.

I'm sorry - but that was the work of man based upon man's compassion for one another.

Another thing that she cites as an example is one time they were really on hard times. She got talked into coming to a raffle at the church - which she didn't WANT to go to because they couldn't afford it - and she "won" the grand prize (which was a few thousand dollars worth of various things/necessities/gift cards/etc).

I know for a *fact* that it was rigged - and the "raffle" was simply a way of the church folk being able to extend charity to her family - because they were too prideful to accept charity knowingly.

If you listen to her - it's an example of how God worked his hand - despite her "human objections" to going to the raffle - and how it shows that He will provide when needed.

Once again - that was human compassion at work - and nothing else.

Every example I've ever come across when people talk about "God's hand at play" can similarly be reduced down to "Well, actually, that was the goodness of people."

...except for dumb luck sort of things.

and I really do have to attribute some things to dumb luck. Because - if you take the stand that God is active in your life and choosing to do things for you - then you also have to take the stand that when crappy things happen to other people - that there was something undeserving about them - or that God chose *not* to extend them His grace.

...which is why you see many times in Churches people with crappy situations being made to feel like there's some shortcoming on their end. They didn't pray hard enough - they didn't repent sincerely enough - etc...else this crappy thing wouldn't be happening to them. And - frankly - that's a lot of hogwash.

At least - that's what I've always seen.

I tend to agree with everything you've said, but I would add that God works through people. So, I wouldn't dismiss that God was providing by having His people show compassion. For me it's about sheer numbers. It seems there are a ton of folks (probably in the billions) that aren't being provided for in any manner. I couldn't say that God always provides while knowing this.

 

[Verve]

I believe that God provides for our needs. That when we go without there is reasoning and something to be learned.

“Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life? And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. ..- Matthew 6:25-34

I also believe there is Biblical precedent for hard work...so I'm not saying that we should sit on our bottoms and do nothing.

There are several quotes I could use here...

I do not have an issue with QF families.
If my husband were QF, I would hope to be ready and willing to be QF.
I admit it would be a spiritual challenge for me, personally.

We are to be responsible and care for one another. Money shouldn't be an issue, but it is, largely due to the way our economy functions.

If a QF family can not afford to care for their children. By this I mean, provide basic things such as clothing (even if it's thrift store), food, and shelter. It is their responsibility to work hard and ensure that their children are cared for, it is also our responsibility to be charitable.

Though I see rough times as being a deterrent to having lots of children.
Anxiety and such would usually make further conception difficult.

 

[Luther073082]

This is true of almost all families to a certain extent, unless they are single child families or multiple births. Even in my own home, the eldest child has been requested to "babysit" and to take on responsibility, and we do not have a "full quiver". In my family of birth, my eldest sister was "the boss" of the kids and we all knew it! Again, not a full quiver family, but still, that is the pecking order of a family. The eldest child is next in line after the parents, and then the next one and the next one ..

But there is difference between learning responsibility - babysitting your younger siblings once in a while and being a co-parent though.

Being responsible for your sibling for a few hours isn't the same thing as being responsible for them 24/7 and practically raising them.

But you look at a family like the Duggars and the 2 parents are spread too thin to effectively raise all 18 of their children to adulthood. So they assign the younger ones to the older siblings and the older siblings raise them for most of their lives.

 

[Luther073082]

I tend to agree with everything you've said, but I would add that God works through people. So, I wouldn't dismiss that God was providing by having His people show compassion. For me it's about sheer numbers. It seems there are a ton of folks (probably in the billions) that aren't being provided for in any manner. I couldn't say that God always provides while knowing this.

While this bothers me, whenever I look at these situations it always seems like these people are provided for but they are powerless and others are taking away that provision.

Like everyone loves to bring up Africa, but the big problem in Africa in a lot of places is political instability and the lack of enforcement of law. Many do just fine through subsistence farming. But the problem is you have various warlords and strongmen with private armies roaming around the place, and they just steal anything they like at the point of a gun.

And that is not just limited to food and objects, but people as well.

 

[Verve]

This is true of almost all families to a certain extent, unless they are single child families or multiple births. Even in my own home, the eldest child has been requested to "babysit" and to take on responsibility, and we do not have a "full quiver". In my family of birth, my eldest sister was "the boss" of the kids and we all knew it! Again, not a full quiver family, but still, that is the pecking order of a family. The eldest child is next in line after the parents, and then the next one and the next one ..

I agree with this. Even only having one sibling, a disabled sibling, it was a requirement that I acted more responsible for my age than would have been necessary if he had not been disabled.

That responsibility often translated into people considering me to act older than my age. Due to this I've also gained an ability to form great relationships with children who aren't my own. There's just something about interacting with their simple world view that makes sense.

It's a blessing and I don't think I'd have gained it if I hadn't been raised with a disabled sibling.

 

[dysert]

While this bothers me, whenever I look at these situations it always seems like these people are provided for but they are powerless and others are taking away that provision.

Like everyone loves to bring up Africa, but the big problem in Africa in a lot of places is political instability and the lack of enforcement of law. Many do just fine through subsistence farming. But the problem is you have various warlords and strongmen with private armies roaming around the place, and they just steal anything they like at the point of a gun.

And that is not just limited to food and objects, but people as well.

Not wanting to argue, but when the net result is the same, what difference does it make? If you say God provided for the starving children in Africa but man came and stole that provision, then why is that? Does God only do a one-time provision and not even bother to protect what He has provided? To me, deism (albeit a monotheist deism) sounds much more like the real world.

 

[4Bear]

Every example I've ever come across when people talk about "God's hand at play" can similarly be reduced down to "Well, actually, that was the goodness of people."

...except for dumb luck sort of things.

and I really do have to attribute some things to dumb luck. Because - if you take the stand that God is active in your life and choosing to do things for you - then you also have to take the stand that when crappy things happen to other people - that there was something undeserving about them - or that God chose *not* to extend them His grace.

My firstborn daughter refers to her childhood as "living in the great depression". We were really poor. But I don't think anyone was deprived of necessities. And crappy things happened at times. But crappy things happen to everyone and I think some of that is learning to count blessings instead of being consumed by a focus on "crappy".

Most of the examples where I see God's fingerprints involve His Word- the Bible- which is not dead letters IMO but "living and active" in a very real sense.

One example is with our 4th child, a daughter. We were poor. Husband was unemployed at the time, and we were basically single income (beside a very small PT job I had).

Daughter K was a National Merit Scholar (top 1% of HS students in America), and I assumed that she would get in almost anywhere and get plenty of scholarships to cover colleges. As she was going through the process and having some anxiety about her future, in Feb. the camp director where she was a counselor sent her an e-mail with a verse God had laid on his heart for her.

"Those who wait for the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings like eagles; they shall run and not be weary; they shall walk and not faint." Isa 40:31​

The year was 2008. The economy tanked. Scholarship assistance contracted. K got wait listed at Princeton, Stanford, Duke, and Harvard.

Do you have any idea of the probability of getting wait-listed at 4 Ivy league schools? Much less than the probability of admission. Only a few hundred are wait listed at each.

Went to another scholarship dinner at the end of May that didn't come through for her and she was literally in tears on the way home still not having heard regarding any of the wait lists. The next day- a Friday- was the very last day that Harvard informed people and at 3:00 in the afternoon, she was despondent. They called at 4:00, last call, on the last day, and offered her a spot.

"Those who wait for the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings like eagles; they shall run and not be weary; they shall walk and not faint." Isa 40:31​

To me, if it was all just random and God doesn't care, why have her get the verse? Why have her defy all odds and get onto 4 waiting lists? Why have the call come in at the last possible hour of the last possible day?

It wasn't random. It was God teaching her to trust Him.

2013 she graduates with one loan for $2500 to pay off and has already landed a job where she will make more than we ever made. Course, patriarchal husband is disappointed that she is more "liberal" having attended Harvard, but she is a very strong woman of faith and I am really proud of her and thankful to God for how He has and is directing her path.

 

[JRSut1000]

Without going into the whole will/predestination thing, I believe that GOd does provide but I also believe He gives us wisdom as well. If we used 'God provides' as an excuse not to work, that would be absolutely absurd! If we use the 'GOd provides' to have as many children as physically possible but arent capable of raising them well, then that too is absurd in my estimate.

 

[Verve]

My firstborn daughter refers to her childhood as "living in the great depression". We were really poor. But I don't think anyone was deprived of necessities. And crappy things happened at times. But crappy things happen to everyone and I think some of that is learning to count blessings instead of being consumed by a focus on "crappy".

Most of the examples where I see God's fingerprints involve His Word- the Bible- which is not dead letters IMO but "living and active" in a very real sense.

One example is with our 4th child, a daughter. We were poor. Husband was unemployed at the time, and we were basically single income (beside a very small PT job I had).

Daughter K was a National Merit Scholar (top 1% of HS students in America), and I assumed that she would get in almost anywhere and get plenty of scholarships to cover colleges. As she was going through the process and having some anxiety about her future, in Feb. the camp director where she was a counselor sent her an e-mail with a verse God had laid on his heart for her.

"Those who wait for the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings like eagles; they shall run and not be weary; they shall walk and not faint." Isa 40:31​

The year was 2008. The economy tanked. Scholarship assistance contracted. K got wait listed at Princeton, Stanford, Duke, and Harvard.

Do you have any idea of the probability of getting wait-listed at 4 Ivy league schools? Much less than the probability of admission. Only a few hundred are wait listed at each.

Went to another scholarship dinner at the end of May that didn't come through for her and she was literally in tears on the way home still not having heard regarding any of the wait lists. The next day- a Friday- was the very last day that Harvard informed people and at 3:00 in the afternoon, she was despondent. They called at 4:00, last call, on the last day, and offered her a spot.

"Those who wait for the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings like eagles; they shall run and not be weary; they shall walk and not faint." Isa 40:31​

To me, if it was all just random and God doesn't care, why have her get the verse? Why have her defy all odds and get onto 4 waiting lists? Why have the call come in at the last possible hour of the last possible day?

It wasn't random. It was God teaching her to trust Him.

This year she graduates with one loan for $2500 to pay off and has landed a job making more than we ever made. Course, patriarchal husband is disappointed that she is more "liberal" having attended Harvard, but she is a very strong woman of faith and I am really proud of her and thankful to God for how He has and is directing her path.

That is a beautiful story! Wow! That's fantastic!