Questions Regarding Dietary Law (For Gentile Christians)

[Noscentia]

I was looking into the aspects of the Law which the council places on gentile Christians in Acts 15, and I see that Paul elaborates specifically on the issue of meat offered to idols in 1 Corinthians 8 and 1 Corinthians 10:25-33. My bigger interest is in the second text wherein Paul writes to go ahead and eat meat that’s offered to you and buy meat from markets without concern so long as you don’t question where it came from, but if someone tells you it was an idol offering to only then refuse it.

Between the two texts, it seems to me that so long as you have the full understanding that an idol is nothing and God is God alone, then the meat is acceptable for consumption (so long as you’re not burdening the conscience of your brother in doing so.)

However, what I’m curious about is, if gentiles were buying meat from the meat market without concern for its source or origin, were they expected to concern themselves with the Kosher status of the meat? Whether it was properly butchered (shechita)? Whether all blood was properly drained, etc?

 

[Gary K]

I was looking into the aspects of the Law which the council places on gentile Christians in Acts 15, and I see that Paul elaborates specifically on the issue of meat offered to idols in 1 Corinthians 8 and 1 Corinthians 10:25-33. My bigger interest is in the second text wherein Paul writes to go ahead and eat meat that’s offered to you and buy meat from markets without concern so long as you don’t question where it came from, but if someone tells you it was an idol offering to only then refuse it.

Between the two texts, it seems to me that so long as you have the full understanding that an idol is nothing and God is God alone, then the meat is acceptable for consumption (so long as you’re not burdening the conscience of your brother in doing so.)

However, what I’m curious about is, if gentiles were buying meat from the meat market without concern for its source or origin, were they expected to concern themselves with the Kosher status of the meat? Whether it was properly butchered (shechita)? Whether all blood was properly drained, etc?

Paul addresses this in Acts 15, specifically verse 20, but read the entire chapter to get the context.

 

[Noscentia]

Paul addresses this in Acts 15, specifically verse 20, but read the entire chapter to get the context.

Yes, I had read the entire chapter. I was specifically asking about the points of clarification on verse 20 about meat offered to idols which Paul writes about in 1 Corinthians, which I cited in the original post.

if gentiles were buying meat from the meat market without concern for its source or origin, were they expected to concern themselves with the Kosher status of the meat? Whether it was properly butchered (shechita)? Whether all blood was properly drained, etc?

Obviously, there were specific methods of draining blood from animals which were practiced by the Jews of that time just as they do now. However, I don't believe it's likely that meat slaughtered for the purpose of being an offering to a pagan idol would have been slaughtered in this fashion. Even so, Paul says later in 1 Corinthians 10:25-28 ...

"25 Eat whatever is sold in the meat market, asking no questions for conscience’ sake; 26 for “the earth is the Lord’s, and all its fullness.”

27 If any of those who do not believe invites you to dinner, and you desire to go, eat whatever is set before you, asking no question for conscience’ sake. 28 But if anyone says to you, “This was offered to idols,” do not eat it for the sake of the one who told you, and for conscience’ sake; i]"for “the earth is the Lord’s, and all its fullness.”

Emphasis mine.

Acts 15 says we are to abstain from things sacrificed to idols, things strangled, blood, and fornication. Paul specifies about meats sacrificed to idols and that we should not ask questions as to whether they were offered to idols or not. But those meats offered to idols, because they are from pagan butchers, would likely not have been drained of blood in the way Jews did. With all that in mind, would gentile Christians not be expected to follow the kosher requirements for draining the blood from animals? I may be misunderstanding what Paul is saying here, but ultimately that is the purpose of my asking the question.

 

[Gary K]

Yes, I had read the entire chapter. I was specifically asking about the points of clarification on verse 20 about meat offered to idols which Paul writes about in 1 Corinthians, which I cited in the original post.



Obviously, there were specific methods of draining blood from animals which were practiced by the Jews of that time just as they do now. However, I don't believe it's likely that meat slaughtered for the purpose of being an offering to a pagan idol would have been slaughtered in this fashion. Even so, Paul says later in 1 Corinthians 10:25-28 ...



Emphasis mine.

Acts 15 says we are to abstain from things sacrificed to idols, things strangled, blood, and fornication. Paul specifies about meats sacrificed to idols and that we should not ask questions as to whether they were offered to idols or not. But those meats offered to idols, because they are from pagan butchers, would likely not have been drained of blood in the way Jews did. With all that in mind, would gentile Christians not be expected to follow the kosher requirements for draining the blood from animals? I may be misunderstanding what Paul is saying here, but ultimately that is the purpose of my asking the question.

Kosher meat, meat with the blood removed, can be created after the killing of the animal. Bleeding the animal at or after death is only one way of getting rid of the blood. The blood can also be removed after the animal is butchered.

Koshering Meat

 

[Noscentia]

Kosher meat, meat with the blood removed, can be created after the killing of the animal. Bleeding the animal at or after death is only one way of getting rid of the blood. The blood can also be removed after the animal is butchered.

Koshering Meat

Would you mind quoting the text in question from this? I've read these steps before (though not from that exact website.) While rinsing, immersing, and salting are part of the koshering process and help to remove blood, even your own link specifically states: "Only meat from kosher animals, properly slaughtered and with the forbidden parts already removed, may be koshered." Emphasis mine.

To my knowledge, and from everything I've yet read on the koshering process, the animal must be properly slaughtered first using the prescribed method by a trained shochet using a chalif. Deviation from any of these, to my understanding, renders the meat unfit for consumption. So getting back to my question, if Paul says to avoid asking about the source of meat purchased from meat markets or placed before you by non-believers, how can you possibly know for sure that any of these steps have been properly followed? Technically, you couldn't even be certain if the animal was strangled or not, let alone whether or not the blood was properly drained.

 

[Gary K]

Would you mind quoting the text in question from this? I've read these steps before (though not from that exact website.) While rinsing, immersing, and salting are part of the koshering process and help to remove blood, even your own link specifically states: "Only meat from kosher animals, properly slaughtered and with the forbidden parts already removed, may be koshered." Emphasis mine.

To my knowledge, and from everything I've yet read on the koshering process, the animal must be properly slaughtered first using the prescribed method by a trained shochet using a chalif. Deviation from any of these, to my understanding, renders the meat unfit for consumption. So getting back to my question, if Paul says to avoid asking about the source of meat purchased from meat markets or placed before you by non-believers, how can you possibly know for sure that any of these steps have been properly followed? Technically, you couldn't even be certain if the animal was strangled or not, let alone whether or not the blood was properly drained.

Your original question was strictly to do with the blood after the animal had been butchered by a pagan. And that is what I answered. I showed how the blood is removed from meat cuts after butchering. That was the question, and that was what I answered.

No where does the Bible say meat must be kosher as kosher is an invention of Jews that comes from their Oral Law. Kosher is not described in the Bible, and is therefore not Biblical in origin.

 

[Noscentia]

Your original question was strictly to do with the blood after the animal had been butchered by a pagan. And that is what I answered. I showed how the blood is removed from meat cuts after butchering. That was the question, and that was what I answered.

Oh, I think I get it. So you're simply suggesting that Paul might advise taking additional steps to further ensure all possible blood has been removed from meat purchased from questionable sources, is that right? Also, how does this deal with potentially strangulated meat?

No where does the Bible say meat must be kosher as kosher is an invention of Jews that comes from their Oral Law. Kosher is not described in the Bible, and is therefore not Biblical in origin.

Ah, see I mistakenly believed that Adventists held to the same koshering laws regarding bloodletting as Jews did. I think linking to an article outlining those exact practices helped reinforce that, lol. I'm sympathetic to the argument that the oral laws in this case are not taken directly from the Bible, but are extrapolated as matters of tradition in an effort to keep the Biblical Law. So would you say then that modern industrial butchering practices sufficiently remove blood from meat to satisfy the mandate in Acts 15, and that no additional steps are typically necessary? Or do you take extra steps with store-bought meat? Do you stick strictly to Kosher certified meat? What recommendations would you give if you find blood in already cooked meat?

My apologies for all the questions, and for assuming you eat meat at all. I know many SDAs are vegetarians.

 

[Gary K]

Oh, I think I get it. So you're simply suggesting that Paul might advise taking additional steps to further ensure all possible blood has been removed from meat purchased from questionable sources, is that right? Also, how does this deal with potentially strangulated meat?



Ah, see I mistakenly believed that Adventists held to the same koshering laws regarding bloodletting as Jews did. I think linking to an article outlining those exact practices helped reinforce that, lol. I'm sympathetic to the argument that the oral laws in this case are not taken directly from the Bible, but are extrapolated as matters of tradition in an effort to keep the Biblical Law. So would you say then that modern industrial butchering practices sufficiently remove blood from meat to satisfy the mandate in Acts 15, and that no additional steps are typically necessary? Or do you take extra steps with store-bought meat? Do you stick strictly to Kosher certified meat? What recommendations would you give if you find blood in already cooked meat?

My apologies for all the questions, and for assuming you eat meat at all. I know many SDAs are vegetarians.

I have no clue as to what was done with strangled animals then, or if any meat processing plants use strangulation now. I think it's not very likely as it would be a slow way to kill an animal and most meat processing plants, like all other types of manufacturing processes, look for the quickest way to acheive their end.

As to modern meat processing, I doubt it removes the blood from the meat. In my experience there is quite a bit of blood left in the meat. So, in my opinion, washing the blood from the meat is still required. With as many diseases as are carried in the blood stream I think it would still be a necessity just for health's sake, and I believe God gave all the dietary laws with His people's health in mind.

And, yes, most SDA's are vegetarian. I've eaten meat down the through the years as I spent quite a few years outside the SDA church, but I paid no attention to blood at that time other than to notice there was a lot of blood a steak or in raw hamburger.

As to the Talmud/Oral_law, I would say the Jews didn't so much extrapolate from the Torah to create the Talmud as they did a lot of major abstraction. Sometimes what they ended up with had little or no real connection to the scripture they started with. I've read a fair amount of the Talmud, both Babylonian and Jerusalem, and especially in the Babylonian Talmud the pagan Greek ideas of abstraction are pretty apparent.

In the Gospels Jesus often premises His remarks to the common man with the phrase " you have heard it said". He's almost always referring to the laws found in the Talmud and taught to the people as the word of God. Every so often those laws were at conflict with what scripture had to say and the laws given by God through Moses.

 

[BobRyan]

I was looking into the aspects of the Law which the council places on gentile Christians in Acts 15, and I see that Paul elaborates specifically on the issue of meat offered to idols in 1 Corinthians 8 and 1 Corinthians 10:25-33. My bigger interest is in the second text wherein Paul writes to go ahead and eat meat that’s offered to you and buy meat from markets without concern so long as you don’t question where it came from, but if someone tells you it was an idol offering to only then refuse it.

Between the two texts, it seems to me that so long as you have the full understanding that an idol is nothing and God is God alone, then the meat is acceptable for consumption (so long as you’re not burdening the conscience of your brother in doing so.)

However, what I’m curious about is, if gentiles were buying meat from the meat market without concern for its source or origin, were they expected to concern themselves with the Kosher status of the meat? Whether it was properly butchered (shechita)? Whether all blood was properly drained, etc?

Acts 15 specifically applies the kosher rule of "meat with blood" found in Lev 17.

Acts 15:"29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled "
Lev 17: 14 “For as for the life of all flesh, its blood is identified with its life. Therefore I said to the sons of Israel, ‘You are not to eat the blood of any flesh, for the life of all flesh is its blood; whoever eats it shall be cut off.’

But as for the Lev 11 rule of clean vs unclean - even Peter in Acts 10 admits that this is a rule he is still following.

 

[Gary K]

Acts 15 specifically applies the kosher rule of "meat with blood" found in Lev 17.

Acts 15:"29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled "
Lev 17: 14 “For as for the life of all flesh, its blood is identified with its life. Therefore I said to the sons of Israel, ‘You are not to eat the blood of any flesh, for the life of all flesh is its blood; whoever eats it shall be cut off.’

But as for the Lev 11 rule of clean vs unclean - even Peter in Acts 10 admits that this is a rule he is still following.

Kosher has a lot of rules not found in the Bible. So is kosher completely Biblical? I'm not so sure as if we read the Talmud we find many non-Biblical ideas in it. The Jews, down through the centuries after the Babylonian captivity, added their own rules and claimed their own rules were the law of God. That's clear from the overall reading of the Talmud. Jesus made that clear too.

Leviticus 17, in my mind, is God saying that all life is of value, even that of animals. That's very clear in verses 3 and 4. Yes, I know later verses tie them to pagan worship and the worship of God, but when we look at all the forms of pagan worship it's very clear that those forms of worship devalue all life, not only human life. The devil hates all God's creatures simply because Jesus created them. Yes, we are the special objects of his hatred, but we are not the exclusive target of his hatred. Paul made it clear when he said the whole creation groans together.

God had no reason to make His laws/rules onerous on His people. It is actually a distortion of His character to say He created onerous rules. I've never seen a single law that God has given that makes life onerous. He simply said in Leviticus to pour the blood on the ground right at the time of killing. He didn't lay out a complicated set of instructions. It's just like Sabbath and how far the Jews of Christ's day had distorted God's purpose for the Sabbath with all their rules. God's rules about strangulation fit the same pattern for the blood is left within the meat and a slow death pushes all kinds of hormones and other substances into the blood stream and the meat of it because of the terror the animal experiences in such a slow death.

The rule about blood is clearly about the value of life for all of God's instructions about not eating blood are specified by God to be related to the life that was just taken. This also relates to the life that was to be sacrificed for all of us in the plan of redemption and how highly God valued that life, and our lives as well for the plan of redemption was created to save life.

 

[BobRyan]

I was looking into the aspects of the Law which the council places on gentile Christians in Acts 15, and I see that Paul elaborates specifically on the issue of meat offered to idols in 1 Corinthians 8 and 1 Corinthians 10:25-33. My bigger interest is in the second text wherein Paul writes to go ahead and eat meat that’s offered to you and buy meat from markets without concern so long as you don’t question where it came from, but if someone tells you it was an idol offering to only then refuse it.

Between the two texts, it seems to me that so long as you have the full understanding that an idol is nothing and God is God alone, then the meat is acceptable for consumption (so long as you’re not burdening the conscience of your brother in doing so.)

However, what I’m curious about is, if gentiles were buying meat from the meat market without concern for its source or origin, were they expected to concern themselves with the Kosher status of the meat? Whether it was properly butchered (shechita)? Whether all blood was properly drained, etc?

Acts 15 specifically applies the kosher rule of "meat with blood" found in Lev 17.

Acts 15:"29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled "
Lev 17: 14 “For as for the life of all flesh, its blood is identified with its life. Therefore I said to the sons of Israel, ‘You are not to eat the blood of any flesh, for the life of all flesh is its blood; whoever eats it shall be cut off.’

But as for the Lev 11 rule of clean vs unclean - even Peter in Acts 10 admits that this is a rule he is still following.

Kosher has a lot of rules not found in the Bible.

No doubt. My interest was specifically in regard to Lev 11 and Lev 17 rules regarding which animals to eat and whether eating blood was allowed -- to see that Acts 15 also calls for looking at those same restrictions.

And of course we know even more about that today - in regard to blood carrying a lot of disease in it.

 

[Gary K]

Acts 15 specifically applies the kosher rule of "meat with blood" found in Lev 17.

Acts 15:"29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled "
Lev 17: 14 “For as for the life of all flesh, its blood is identified with its life. Therefore I said to the sons of Israel, ‘You are not to eat the blood of any flesh, for the life of all flesh is its blood; whoever eats it shall be cut off.’

But as for the Lev 11 rule of clean vs unclean - even Peter in Acts 10 admits that this is a rule he is still following.



No doubt. My interest was specifically in regard to Lev 11 and Lev 17 rules regarding which animals to eat and whether eating blood was allowed -- to see that Acts 15 also calls for looking at those same restrictions.

And of course we know even more about that today - in regard to blood carrying a lot of disease in it.

I agree. I just thought it was important not to associate meat without blood to kosher, for kosher implies much more than the removal of blood at the death of the animal. For meat to be kosher is a lot of work and specific processes other than just draining the blood at death as specified in Leviticus. The entire process of making meat kosher would have been basically impossible for a nomadic people living in the wilderness in tents.

For me all of this, including the lessons taught by the giving of manna, all have to do with learning to trust God for our sustenance, learning to respect all life for the Israelites had just come out of a culture of death where they were slaves for a few generations and where they were going was inhabited by more cultures of death and lack of respect for all life in the pagan worship practices. I think it's also interesting that Leviticus 17 makes it clear that the pagan worship practices were in actuality the worship of devils and contrasts those practices with God's respect for life.