Questions on Salvation not Theosis....

[oneshot012]

Okay as I understand theosis it is the process where one becomes like God by the energies of God and the participation in the divine that ends in glorification of the saint. Now how does this process begin...at what point is it recognized that one is saved...now I understand apophatic reasoning so this may not make sense but let me say this in defense...at what point does one receive the atoning work of Jesus...does there not have to be a starting point to this process...I am not vying for a conversion experience but what point marks the difference between a person in the church and out of the church...

 

[buzuxi02]

Baptism is the starting point and ends with death.

 

[oneshot012]

I thought that baptism would be the answer...so what you are saying is, I am not debating only trying to understand so be patient as I raise and ask debate questions, that at baptism I receive Christ. Therefore, the classic example is the thief on the cross who was not baptized what do we do with this? Also I am completely ignorant of this but isn't there a catechises before baptism in the Orthodox church? If so what if you were to die while being a catechumen? Would you be outside of fellowship with God because theosis only applies to those in Christ?

 

[buzuxi02]

I thought that baptism would be the answer...so what you are saying is, I am not debating only trying to understand so be patient as I raise and ask debate questions, that at baptism I receive Christ. Therefore, the classic example is the thief on the cross who was not baptized what do we do with this? Also I am completely ignorant of this but isn't there a catechises before baptism in the Orthodox church? If so what if you were to die while being a catechumen? Would you be outside of fellowship with God because theosis only applies to those in Christ?

The thief was baptised in his blood. Blood baptism is equal (if not superior) to water baptism. Matt20.22

I should have said usually starts at baptism and ends with death.

But we can stretch it abit further. It began before our baptism at Golgotha when Christ shed his blood for us on the cross, the same blood that dripped on Adam's skull (see a skull usually painted at the bottom of the cross on an icon) and will continue till the second coming.

 

[oneshot012]

So when do we say our entry point is? Baptism is a clear designation I clearly agree with that...it is the most clear...but does it not start with a conscious choice and baptism is the sign that mystically beings the uniting process with Christ? Furthermore, how does carismation fit into all of this? Thanks...

 

[paleodoxy]

So when do we say our entry point is? Baptism is a clear designation I clearly agree with that...it is the most clear...but does it not start with a conscious choice and baptism is the sign that mystically beings the uniting process with Christ? Furthermore, how does carismation fit into all of this? Thanks...

(1) The choice of course is the ground of our baptism and entry into the Trinitarian Life of the Church. The Church, being the Mystical Body of Christ on earth, precludes the possibility of individuality in soteriology. There are no individuals, only persons. And personhood can only exist in community (as the Trinity itself attests). Thus, in Orthodoxy, the Church is seen as the mysical extension, in time and on earth, of God's inner Life.

This is not to say that God can't bring non-baptized individuals to heaven, but only that individuality cannot fully participate in or truly reflect the life of the Trinity, which is the essence of salvation.

(2) Chrismation occurs immediately after baptism. It is each individual's personal Pentecost in the Holy Spirit. Baptism by itself is incomplete, for it is not only necessary to be united to Christ's human nature, but to His divinity as well - and this can only occur through the power of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit applies the work of Christ to particular persons. We are not universalists.

 

[oneshot012]

Therefore salvation must be seen as entrance into the Church, the mystical body. Therefore, to be in Christ is to be in the Church and to be in the Church is to be in Christ...kind of like Augustine's Christus Totus...
So baptism really doesn't unite us with Christ but it is completed in chrismation by receiving the Holy Spirit...

 

[paleodoxy]

The Orthodox understand Chrismation to be the seal of our Baptism into Christ - so Baptism and Chrismation, while distinct, are not ultimately separated.

 

[paleodoxy]

And yes, you summarized the first part quite well!

 

[oneshot012]

Now if only the Orthodox church agreed with with my Pentecostal experience of speaking in tongues and sign gifts because I researched that whole icon problem that I had I would probably convert because I don't have anymore hang ups...o well...

 

[Orthosdoxa]

re: tongues: Read "The Mountain of Silence" by Markides.

 

[buzuxi02]

So when do we say our entry point is? Baptism is a clear designation I clearly agree with that...it is the most clear...but does it not start with a conscious choice and baptism is the sign that mystically beings the uniting process with Christ? Furthermore, how does carismation fit into all of this? Thanks...

Besides what Paleo has said i would like to point out that baptism is not a sign. Circumsciusion was a sign (see Gen 17.11).

Baptism is the cleansing of sins and the putting on of Christ and the entrance into the One body of Christ (see 1 Cor 12. 13).

Like you said in post 7. Baptism allows us into the mystical body of Christ and this mystical Body is none other than the bridal chamber. Entrance into the church is a type for entrance into the Kingdom of God.

When your not in the church, your on the outside of the bridal chamber looking in. You are a spectator of the Last Supper but not a participant alongside the other disciples at the table. Likewise if your in the bridal chamber, you will be a participant of the marriage supper (Rev 19.9)

 

[Kristos]

Let me just add that baptism & chrismation do NOT ensure salvation. "saved" does not align well with Orthodox soteriology. Atonement in a substitutionary sense is also foreign to Orthodoxy.

 

[oneshot012]

Can baptism also have a function as a sign, pointing to something else, that one day we will be transformed eschatalogically?

 

[oneshot012]

"Let me just add that baptism & chrismation do NOT ensure salvation. "saved" does not align well with Orthodox soteriology. Atonement in a substitutionary sense is also foreign to Orthodoxy."

Elaborate for me and point me in the right direction...obviously I am Western so don't just say it is foreign to Eastern please explain so I can understand....Thanks...

 

[paleodoxy]

Yes, I think so. We already participate in the Resurrection of Christ through Baptism (albeit not in the fullest, eschatological sense) by virtue of Paul's message in Romans 6 and elsewhere to the effect that we not only die to our sin by being buried with Christ in Baptism, but that we are raised to newness of life by that same Baptism as we emerge from the waters and clothe ourselves with His Life in the Spirit.

 

[paleodoxy]

Signs are never bare or "mere" symbols, however. We always "participate" in them - even if only in a "preliminary" (pre-eschatological) way.

 

[Breaking Babylon]

Now if only the Orthodox church agreed with with my Pentecostal experience of speaking in tongues and sign gifts because I researched that whole icon problem that I had I would probably convert because I don't have anymore hang ups...o well...

If you're at the point of conversion, why are you letting the least of the gifts hinder you?

 

[jckstraw72]

about the theif on the cross ---- St. Paul tells us that baptism is rising and dying with Christ -- well when the thief died Christ had not died and resurrected so there was no Christian baptism then.

 

[SpiritDriven]

The Lamb was slain at the foundation of the World...before the first man or woman was created.

Your salvation was never going to be via anything you do.....but as a result of what God has already done.

The only freedom of will you have....is weather you believe that or not.