Questions on Orthodoxy

[LizaMarie]

These are what I'll run into with other Catholics. I'm not having a big issue with Orthodox teaching.

Functionally the RCC gives loads of annulments, having a divorce rate the same as the rest of society pretty much. And they have chucked the no-contraceptive teaching, just turning their heads the other way. I only ever heard proper teaching on it from fellow lay folks, not clergy.

So not here to argue with you guys. But as I confront other Catholics I'm regularly presenting the Eastern perspectives that are really growing on me.

Like you I'm moving very slow. I'm frankly alarmed at what I've seen recently coming out of the Vatican, and I'm thinking maybe it's a good thing that we didn't convert when I started looking into it 10 years ago. I really liked what I read in the CCC but what's on paper and what is going on now is a real disconnect. My husband will need to apply for an annulment and my oldest son did NOT want to become Catholic. That said I still believe the RCC is a valid Apostolic church. Orthodoxy is too, and just seems so much more solid to me now, including what I read theologically from the clergy. I just wish the closest church wasn't so far away. The kids are grown and they are still solid confessional conservative Lutherans and attend church regularly.

 

[Markie Boy]

After having been in the RCC, I seriously think a solid, conservative Lutheran church may be better than the average novus ordo parish for the path of salvation.

 

[E.C.]

1. Why does there seem to be so much feuding among the Orthodox Churches?

2. Is divorce and contraception permitted? It seems depending on what website I go to I find multiple answers.

Thank you and God Bless

***Answers from Orthodox Christians only please.

Howdy.

1) We're not perfect.

2) The divorce part, yes. The contraception part falls under "ask your priest". The Roman Church looks at sex strictly in a strictly procreative light and therefore they have a very black and white view of any and all forms of contraception (ironically the Pill was invented by a devout Catholic). The Orthodox Church looks at sex in a more unitive light between man and woman. Every couple and situation is different, so you won't find a clear answer on it because it is a more pastoral matter than dogmatic one.
Divorce is permitted because the Church recognizes that sometimes a marriage can not be repaired. It's permitted as a side-effect of our fallen nature. I believe the Church allows up to three marriages within the Church. There is no fourth.

 

[prodromos]

I believe the Church allows up to three marriages within the Church. There is no fourth.

I suspect that three marriages would be an extremely rare exception, only after being widowed, and I doubt anyone would be permitted a third marriage if they were twice divorced.

 

[LizaMarie]

After having been in the RCC, I seriously think a solid, conservative Lutheran church may be better than the average novus ordo parish for the path of salvation.

Except I've been told by my conservative Catholic Friends(and the CCC) that I may not get to heaven if I don't convert to the RCC and I may not be in a valid marriage.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I suspect that three marriages would be an extremely rare exception, only after being widowed, and I doubt anyone would be permitted a third marriage if they were twice divorced.

Yes I think (iirc) that I asked once what would happen if a person was widowed three times, could they not marry again a 4th time? (No divorces.) And I think I was told no. It seemed harsh to me at that time. But do I remember rightly that three marriages is the limit, even through death of a spouse?

I did read that whether remarriage was allowed depended on circumstances and how much the person had healed (would it simply lead to another failed marriage/divorce) and that two divorces would probably mean no more marriages in the Church.

I'm actually thankful that there are deeply pastoral considerations on these matters.

 

[Markie Boy]

Except I've been told by my conservative Catholic Friends(and the CCC) that I may not get to heaven if I don't convert to the RCC and I may not be in a valid marriage.

I don't know, but I know this. The current catechism has things in it that do not fit with historical teaching. According to it Muslims are first in line with us worshiping the true God.

List to any Muslim converts to Christianity and they don't seem to agree. And the pope just changed the catechism on the death penalty - and it now sits out of line with 2,000 years of teaching. Catechisms are OK, but they change and are no where near the authority of Scripture.

Your marriage I do not know, but many Catholics act as if God is bound and limited by their sacraments. God looks upon the heart, and may work where He wills.

But in Lutheranism - I'm not a fan of the Sola's on Scripture Alone and Faith Alone.

I think of John 17:3 and eternal life being knowing God and Jesus. I have found that hard in the typical modern Catholic parish, thus my statement on possibly being better of in a good Lutheran setting - but that may have been a wrong thing to say.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Except I've been told by my conservative Catholic Friends(and the CCC) that I may not get to heaven if I don't convert to the RCC and I may not be in a valid marriage.

Well ...

As far as it goes, if ANY human person thinks they can say with certainty how God will judge (especially that He will certainly condemn a person) ... let's just say I prefer to distance myself from that.

My understanding on marriage is that if it's a sacramental one, we have the promise of the grace of God. But that doesn't mean God can't work in non-sacramental marriages.

I suspect your concern is a more "legal" one. But God doesn't seem to be looking for technicalities on which to condemn people, but rather seeking always to restore through the circumstances we find ourselves in.

Once more I just don't like the whole legal mindset that threatens people with condemnation. We of course have to take a care for our salvation and not presume upon God. But hopefully we can trust in Him too.

 

[LizaMarie]

I don't know, but I know this. The current catechism has things in it that do not fit with historical teaching. According to it Muslims are first in line with us worshiping the true God.

List to any Muslim converts to Christianity and they don't seem to agree. And the pope just changed the catechism on the death penalty - and it now sits out of line with 2,000 years of teaching. Catechisms are OK, but they change and are no where near the authority of Scripture.

Your marriage I do not know, but many Catholics act as if God is bound and limited by their sacraments. God looks upon the heart, and may work where He wills.

But in Lutheranism - I'm not a fan of the Sola's on Scripture Alone and Faith Alone.

I think of John 17:3 and eternal life being knowing God and Jesus. I have found that hard in the typical modern Catholic parish, thus my statement on possibly being better of in a good Lutheran setting - but that may have been a wrong thing to say.

I agree more with the Eastern(Orthodox church on marriage, but more with Rome on Birth control and Assisted Reproduction.Humane Vitae and Donum Vitae are almost prophetic. I used to be a " Mere Christianity" Christian. I always believed that Catholics,(along with the Orthodox) were genuine Christians, but that the Protestant Reformation was necessary to cull out errors and false teachings. I never agreed with some of my Protestant friends and relatives that dismissed Catholicism as a "cult" or whatnot. Or course they didn't even know what Orthodoxy is, so no discussion there. Some of them still don't know. "What? You want to convert to Judaism?" I have to explain about the whole Eastern half of the Church. My sibling the other day just could not understand why I would want to leave Lutheranism for Orthodoxy(if that's the route I take). This same person really dislikes Catholicism.
As far as marriage, this is just me- I favor the Catholic view, but I think that Rome/Orthodoxy are really doing the exact same thing with the decree of nullity being issued by Church hierarchy on one hand, deciding that the former marriage was not sacramental(as in the West the priest only witnesses the sacrament the couple are the ministers) while on the other hand in Orthodoxy the Bishop or priest administers the sacrament and decides if another marriage is best for a person's salvation in order to avoid worse sins. In my view(and I know nothing I'm just a layperson) it is two different ways of coming to the same end of binding and losing as per the Scriptures. And it seems a third marriage is rarely granted(at least in the case of divorce.)
I no longer believe in Sola Scriptura, it is not logical. A teaching authority and visible Church is logical to me. Faith and works are two sides of the same coin, as per the book of James. On the other hand, there are traces of legalism in Rome that I find concerning. Sunday obligation for example. Now don't get me wrong. If you love our Lord-you are going to WANT to be in Church. I do. I'm exited to to to church and love the extra services during Lent, etc. That's a tough one for me. I know there are exceptions but here we have extreme weather and I've been working Sundays.(I need another job.)

 

[LizaMarie]

Well ...

As far as it goes, if ANY human person thinks they can say with certainty how God will judge (especially that He will certainly condemn a person) ... let's just say I prefer to distance myself from that.

My understanding on marriage is that if it's a sacramental one, we have the promise of the grace of God. But that doesn't mean God can't work in non-sacramental marriages.

I suspect your concern is a more "legal" one. But God doesn't seem to be looking for technicalities on which to condemn people, but rather seeking always to restore through the circumstances we find ourselves in.

Once more I just don't like the whole legal mindset that threatens people with condemnation. We of course have to take a care for our salvation and not presume upon God. But hopefully we can trust in Him too.

Agree with this. This is why I have been studying Orthodoxy.

 

[LizaMarie]

I don't know, but I know this. The current catechism has things in it that do not fit with historical teaching. According to it Muslims are first in line with us worshiping the true God.

List to any Muslim converts to Christianity and they don't seem to agree. And the pope just changed the catechism on the death penalty - and it now sits out of line with 2,000 years of teaching. Catechisms are OK, but they change and are no where near the authority of Scripture.

Your marriage I do not know, but many Catholics act as if God is bound and limited by their sacraments. God looks upon the heart, and may work where He wills.

But in Lutheranism - I'm not a fan of the Sola's on Scripture Alone and Faith Alone.

I think of John 17:3 and eternal life being knowing God and Jesus. I have found that hard in the typical modern Catholic parish, thus my statement on possibly being better of in a good Lutheran setting - but that may have been a wrong thing to say.

Not a wrong thing to say really. I know many Protestants whom are excellent Christians. This is a tough one. At least my Lutheran Church believes in the Real Presence in the Eucharist(although Catholic and Orthodox would likely say they are not genuine as we have no Apostolic succession.) and teaches a strong Gospel. My kids attended WELS schools until 6th grade and I really feel it made a huge difference. I know some devout Catholics, too, but tons of "wordly" ones that have no problem with abortion, etc. This was why when my husband and I were looking into it a few years ago, my son objected, as he said his Catholic friends were so worldly. Of course that has nothing to do with the Truth of the Church. Lots of so called Christians are worldly.

 

[JohnTh]

Yes I think (iirc) that I asked once what would happen if a person was widowed three times, could they not marry again a 4th time? (No divorces.) And I think I was told no. It seemed harsh to me at that time. But do I remember rightly that three marriages is the limit, even through death of a spouse?

Yes. There is living God which will comfort the widow.

 

[JohnTh]

Lots of so called Christians are worldly.

Yes, unfortunately, because the ascetic life in Christ is missing. The true Church is a hospital for sinners and not an academic club of „saints” speaking about God and not WITH God.

 

[JohnTh]

Of course that has nothing to do with the Truth of the Church

It has because no true faith - no true cure. As I said in my previous post, the Church is (should be) a hospital.