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JW Questions I have for a Jehovah's Witness about Prophecy and the WTS materials.

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by The7thColporteur, Apr 6, 2018.

  1. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    United States
    Crocodilian, are not Sauropodian, nor Theropodian, nor Pterosaurian, as the bone skeletal structure is entirely different for each.

    WTS, says contradictory to your statement,

    "There is no direct reference to dinosaurs in the Bible. ... Without mentioning dinosaurs specifically, the Bible does refer to groups of creatures that may include them: ...

    ... In any case, the terms “Behemoth” and “Leviathan” cannot refer to dinosaurs. God told Job to observe these animals personally, and Job lived long after the dinosaurs had passed off the scene.—Job 40:16; 41:8. ...

    ... The Bible does not comment on the disappearance of the dinosaurs." - [1]

    "... Awake! February 8, 1990, Vol. 71, No. 3

    "Before 1824, dinosaurs were unknown to man. ..."

    "... Dinosaurs played a dominant role in life on earth during their age. But then came to an end. The rock layers containing human fossils consistently occur above those layers containing dinosaur fossils. Because of this, scientists generally conlcude that humans came on the earthly scene later. ..."

    "... The book A Vanished World: The Dinosaurs of Western Canada sates that "all of the 11 major kinds of dinosaurs ... ceased to exist in the western interior at about the same time." This, and the fact that human bones have not been found with dinosaur bones, is why most scientists conclude that the Age of Dinosaurs ended before humans came on the scene. ... no one on earth today really knows all the answers."

    "Of all the life-forms now extinct, dinosaurs ..."

    "... Dinosaur bones are regularly found in lower earth layers than are human bones, leading many to conclude that they belong to an eariler time period. ..."

    "... In contrast, the Bible account in the first chapter of Genesis simply states the general order of creation. It allows for possibly thousands of millions of years for the formation of the earth and many millenniums in six creative eras, or "days," to prepare the earth for human habitation. ..."

    "... when the fossil is considered to be about 50,000 years old ..."

    "... When the dinosaurs had fulfilled their purpose, God ended their life. ..." - https://jwtalk.net/forums/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=17174
    There is so much incorrect in those statements, but to keep this simple, consider:

    Here is some actual scientific material [yes they go and dig bones, go to archeology sites, etc] to consisder, please [choose any you want, don't matter]:

    Look up the following names, Walter J. Veith [Zoolologist/Pastor, etc], Robert V. Gentry [Physicist, Radio-isotopes], Don Patton, Ian Juby [youtube Wazooloo Channel], Dennis Swift [Ica Stones], Mark Armitage [Microscopist], John Mackay [Australian, Teacher, etc], Spike Psarris [Astronomer], Thomas Kindell, and Ken Ham, more:

    Soft Tissue [with Mark Armitage, Microscopist]:

    Age, Radio-Isotopes [Robert V. Gentry, Physicist, publishes peer-reviewed, National Labs, etc]


    Tiptoe through the Tapeats [Ian Juby, Wazooloo]

    Tip-toe through the Tapeats with Wazooloo

    Fossils & Men:

    Malachi Man: Dawkin's Worst Nightmare!

    real studys about ''Fossil Men'' Geologist Dr.Patton Ph.D

    The Fossil Record by Dr. Don Patton Ph.D.

    Age of the Earth:

    How old is the Earth - Creation or Evolution? - Seminar by Don Patton

    Look Up:

    Creation - Ian Juby - Genesis Week Season 2 Ep 25 - Toad You So!
    Toad you so! This is Genesis Week, episode 25, season 2 with Wazooloo/aka Ian Juby

    Creation - Ian Juby - Genesis Week Season 2 Ep 30 - Geological Column Busted
    Geological Column Busted, this is Genesis Week, episode 30 season 2 with Wazooloo/Ian Juby

    Creation - Ian Juby - Genesis Week Season 2 Ep 37 - Fossil Record Busted!
    Fossil record busted! Ep 37, season 2 finale of Genesis Week, with wazooloo/Ian Juby


    Biblical Creation & History



    Free Online Creation Science Videos
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
  2. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    United States
    While you're contemplating those, at least one. my next question:

    According to WTS theology, Jesus died on a 'torture stake' [pole. "i"], and not a "Cross" ["t"], when they say:

    "... The Imperial Bible-Dictionary says that the word staurosʹ “properly signified a stake, an upright pole, or piece of paling, on which anything might be hung, or which might be used in impaling a piece of ground.” The dictionary continues: “Even amongst the Romans the crux (Latin, from which our cross is derived) appears to have been originally an upright pole.” Thus, it is not surprising that The Catholic Encyclopedia states: “Certain it is, at any rate, that the cross originally consisted of a simple vertical pole, sharpened at its upper end.” ..." - [1]

    "... [Picture on page 18]

    A 17th-century drawing of an execution on a staurosʹ, from Lipsius’ De Cruce ..." - [2]​

    For example, the Watch Tower and Tract Society, cites Justus Lipsius' work “De Cruce Liber Primus” [1] and cite* merely one small section of the work, pointing to a possible type of crucifixion that was historically known, this being the Crux Simplex, Page 19, seen here - http://brooklyn.org.pl/00000003.gif or here - https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Justus_Lipsius_Crux_Simplex_1629.jpg , which is also seen in a more modern rendition, in the WTS material “What does the Bible really Teach?”, Page 52 [to which I had been given a copy of from a Jehovah's Witness, whom I knew briefly,and fully read], and also may be seen here - http://download.jw.org/files/media_books/97/bh_E.pdf

    * “... the Watchtower's 1985 Kingdom Interlinear Translation, of which the above woodcut is shown as an illustration:

    "`Cross'" is only a later meaning of crux. A single stake for impalement of a criminal was called in Latin crux simplex. One such instrument of torture is illustrated by Justus Lipsius (1547-1606) in his book De cruce libri tres, Antwerp, 1629, p. 19, which we here present. ... Crux simplex illustrated."” - [1]

    [Question] Given, those citations from the WTS, how do you explain their deliberate misuse of those citations, and editing of the citations?

    Evidence, which the WTS ignored, and altered, ending a sentence with a period, when it should have been either a 'comma' or a set of 'ellipses' because the remainder of the sentence changes the entire thing, 'prominent part', menaing there was more than one part, more than the "pole"/'stake", there was the "cross piece", or "patibulum". More than this, the Imperial Bible Dictionary of Patrick Fairbairn [a triniarian], does not choose a single upright stake, but rather agrees generally with one of the latter of the three: "T", "X", "t" forms.:

    The Imperial Bible Dictionary, Historical, Biographical, Geographical, and Doctrinal: Including the Natural History, Antiquities, Manners, Customs, and Religious Rites And Ceremonies Mentioned In The Scriptures, And An Account Of The Several Books Of The Old And New Testaments. Edited By The Rev. Patrick Fairbairn, D.D., Author Of "Typology Of Scripture," "Commentary On Ezekiel," Etc. Illustrated By Numerous Engravers, Volume I, London: Blackie And Son, Paternoster Row; And Glasgow And Edinburgh. MDCCCLXVL., pages 376, 377

    "... CROSS, CRUCIFY. The Greek word for cross, σταυρός, properly signified a stake, an upright pole, or piece of paling, on which anything might be hung, or which might be used in impaling a piece of ground. But a modification was introduced as the dominion and usages of Rome extended themselves through Greek-speaking countries. Even amongst the Romans the crux (from which our cross is derived) appears to have been originally an upright pole, and this always remained the more prominent part. But from the time that it began to be used as an instrument of punishment, a transverse piece of wood was commonly added: not, however, always even then. For it would seem that there were more kinds of death than the one by the cross; this being sometimes accomplished by transfixing the criminal with a pole, which was run through his back and spine, and came out at his mouth (adactum per medium hominem, qui per os emergat, stipitem, Seneca, Ep. xiv.) In another place (Consol. ad Marciam, xx.), Seneca mentions three different forms: "I see," says he, "three crosses, not indeed of one sort, but fashioned in different ways; one sort suspending by the head persons bent toward the earth, others transfixing them through their secret parts, others extending their arms on a patibulum." There can be no doubt, however, that the latter sort was the more common, and that about the period of the gospel age crucifixion was usually accomplished by suspending the criminal on a cross piece of wood.

    But this does not of itself determine the precise form of the cross; for crosses of three different shapes were known to have been in use. One, and that probably the most ancient, was in the form of the letter T, which as commonly written consisted simply of a perpendicular line with another laid across the top, making two right angles, T. In the earlier Christian writers this letter is often referred to to as a symbol of the cross, and, on account of such a resemblance, Lucian, in his usual style, prefers a charge against the letter (Judio. Voc. xii.) The letter X represents another sort, which has received the name of St. Andrew, from a tradition that on a cross of this description the apostle of that [Page 376-377] name suffered martyrdom. But the commonest form, it is understood, was that in which the upright piece of wood was crossed by another near the top, but not precisely at it, the upright pole running above the other, thus t -- and so making four, not merely two right angles. It was on a cross of this form, according to the general voice of tradition, that our Lord suffered; but there is nothing in the narratives of the evangelists which determines this to have been the form employed, rather than either of the other two. It is, however, the one most commonly met with in the paintings and sculptures tht have survived from the earlier ages. ..." - Imperial Bible dictionary : historical, biographical, geographical, and doctrinal including the natural history, antiquities, manners, customs, and religious rites and ceremonies mentioned in the Scriptures, and an account of the several books of the Old and New Testaments

    Justus Lipsius work cites many types of crucifixions, that were historically known and used, not simply the one pointed out by the WTS, and he also does not point to the Crux Simplex as the one Jesus was crucified upon, but rather to another, being one with a cross beam, as may be seen here [Begin on Scanned Pages 1157-1234] - Opera omnia, postremum ab ipso aucta et recensita, nunc primum ..., Volume 3

    - Specifically see Pages:

    Page 1174 - Opera omnia, postremum ab ipso aucta et recensita, nunc primum ..., Volume 3
    Page 1176 - Opera omnia, postremum ab ipso aucta et recensita, nunc primum ..., Volume 3
    Page 1177 - Opera omnia, postremum ab ipso aucta et recensita, nunc primum ..., Volume 3
    Page 1179 - Opera omnia, postremum ab ipso aucta et recensita, nunc primum ..., Volume 3
    Page 1182 - Opera omnia, postremum ab ipso aucta et recensita, nunc primum ..., Volume 3
    Page 1203 - Opera omnia, postremum ab ipso aucta et recensita, nunc primum ..., Volume 3
    Page 1216 - Opera omnia, postremum ab ipso aucta et recensita, nunc primum ..., Volume 3
    Page 1218 - Opera omnia, postremum ab ipso aucta et recensita, nunc primum ..., Volume 3
    Page 1220 - Opera omnia, postremum ab ipso aucta et recensita, nunc primum ..., Volume 3
    Page 1222 - Opera omnia, postremum ab ipso aucta et recensita, nunc primum ..., Volume 3
    Page 1223 - Opera omnia, postremum ab ipso aucta et recensita, nunc primum ..., Volume 3

    [and for more on that work, see here] - Jesus is Jehovah!: Justus Lipsius' De Cruce Liber Tres

    The Roman Catholic Encyclopedia actually says:

    "... The penalty of the cross goes back probably to the arbor infelix, or unhappy tree, spoken of by Cicero (Pro, Rabir., iii sqq.) and by Livy, apropos of the condemnation of Horatius after the murder of his sister. According to Hüschke (Die Multa, 190) the magistrates known as duoviri perduellionis pronounced this penalty (cf. Liv., I, 266), styled also infelix lignem (Senec., Ep. ci; Plin., XVI, xxvi; XXIV, ix; Macrob., II, xvi). This primitive form of crucifixion on trees was long in use, as Justus Lipsius notes ("De cruce", I, ii, 5; Tert., "Apol.", VIII, xvi; and "Martyrol. Paphnut." 25 Sept.). Such a tree was known as a cross (crux). On an ancient vase we see Prometheus bound to a beam which serves the purpose of a cross. A somewhat different form is seen on an ancient cist at Præneste (Palestrina), upon which Andromeda is represented nude, and bound by the feet to an instrument of punishment like a military yoke — i.e. two parallel, perpendicular stakes, surmounted by a transverse bar. Certain it is, at any rate, that the cross originally consisted of a simple vertical pole, sharpened at its upper end. Mæcenas (Seneca, Epist. xvii, 1, 10) calls it acuta crux; it could also be called crux simplex. To this upright pole a transverse bar was afterwards added to which the sufferer was fastened with nails or cords, and thus remained until he died, whence the expression cruci figere or affigere (Tac., "Ann.", XV, xliv; Potron., "Satyr.", iii) The cross, especially in the earlier times, was generally low. It was elevated only in exceptional cases, particularly whom it was desired to make the punishment more exemplary or when the crime was exceptionally serious. Suetonius (Galba, ix) tells us that Galba did this in the case of a certain criminal for whom he caused to be made a very high cross painted white — "multo præter cætteras altiorem et dealbatam statui crucem jussit". ...

    ... Among the Romans the cross never had the symbolical meaning which it had in the ancient Orient; they regarded solely as a material instrument of punishment. There are in the Old Testament clear allusions to the Cross and Crucifixion of Jesus Christ. Thus the Greek lefter (tau or thau) appears in Ezekiel 9:4, according to St. Jerome and other Fathers, as a solemn symbol of the Cross of Christ — "Mark Thau upon the foreheads of the men that sigh". The only other symbol of crucifixion indicated in the Old Testament is the brazen serpent in the Book of Numbers (21:8-9). Christ Himself thus interpreted the passage: "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of man be lifted up" (John 3:14). The Psalmist predicts the piercing of the hands and the feet (Psalm 21:17). This was a true prophecy, inasmuch as it could not be conceived from any custom then existing; the practice of nailing the condemned to a T-shaped cross being, as we have seen, at that time exclusively Western. The cross on which Jesus Christ was nailed was of the kind known as immissa, which means that the vertical trunk extended a certain height above the transverse beam; it was thus higher than the crosses of the two thieves, his crime being judged a graver one, according to St. John Chrysostom (Homil. v, c. i., on I Corinth.). The earliest Christian Fathers who speak of the Cross describe it as thus constructed. We gather as much from St. Matthew (27:37), where he tells us that the titulus, or inscription containing the cause of His death, was placed, "over", the head of Jesus Christ (cf. Luke 23:38; John 19:19). St. Irenæus (Adv. Haer., II, xxiv) says that the Cross had five extremities: two in its length, two in its breadth, and the fifth a projection (habitus) in the middle — "Fines et summitates habet quinque, duas in longitudine, duas in latitudine, unam in medio". St. Augustine agrees with him: "Erat latitudo in qua porrectæ sunt manus longitudo a terrâ surgens, in quâ erat corpus infixum; altitudo ab illo divexo ligno sursum quod imminet" (Enarration on Psalm 103; Serm. i, 44) and in other passages quoted by Zöckler (Das Kreuz, 1875, pp. 430, 431).

    Nonnus confirms the statement that Jesus Christ was crucified on a quadrilateral cross (). St. Irenæus, in the passage cited above says that the Cross had a fifth extremity, on which the Crucified One was seated. St. Justin calls it a horn, and compares it to the horn of a rhinoceros (Dialogus cum Tryphone, xci). Tertullian calls it sedilus excessus, a projecting seat, or shelf (Ad. Nat., I, xii). This little seat (equuleus) prevented the weight of the body from completely tearing the nail-pierced hands, and it helped to support the sufferer. It has never been indicated, however, in representations of the Crucifixion. On the Cross of Christ was placed the titulus, as to the wording of which the Four Evangelists do not agree. St. Matthew (xxvii, 37) gives, "This is Jesus the King of the Jews"; St. Mark (xv, 26) "The King of the Jews"; St. Luke (xxiii, 38), "This is the King of the Jews"; St. John, an eyewitness (xix, 19), "Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews". In representations of the Crucifixion there often appears beneath the feet a wooden support (, suppedaneum); that it ever existed is very doubtful. The first express mention of it occurs in Gregory of Tours (De Gloriâ Martyrum, vi). St. Cyprian, Theodoret, and Rufinus hint at it. ..." - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Archaeology of the Cross and Crucifix
    And then, the follow up Question was asked previously, in regards the Biblical evidence on the shape of the instrument of the Cross, how do you account for these things, in relation to the WTS position?:

    Please let me know, thank you.
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
  3. Ratiocination

    Ratiocination Senior Member

    Jehovahs Witness

    So here is where you would usually provide evidence that the Bible does indeed speak about dinosaurs? You seem to have completely diverted the conversation, in an effort to to avoid my point about the Days in Genesis! Comments like "it's worse than I thought", is juvenile. Let's discuss your mis-reading of the text here...

    My point was... I don't really care, it's not vital. Satan will keep us busy with all manner of unnecessary pursuits instead of focusing on the vital truth of salvation.

    Awake! February 8, 1990, Vol. 71, No. 3
    However, it should be noted that there are some who say that dinosaur bones and human bones are not found together because dinosaurs did not live in areas of human habitation. Such differing views demonstrate that the fossil record does not yield its secrets so easily and that no one on earth today really knows all the answers.

    Context... My friend, Context!

    Nowhere in the above quotes that you conveniently sliced up are they being dogmatic. We don't really care.
    Excellent, I'll take a look. Thanks.
  4. Ratiocination

    Ratiocination Senior Member

    Jehovahs Witness

    I understand that for you it is vital that Dinosaurs walked the earth alongside Humans. You are forced into this position because of the 144 hours of creation story. The point is, this kind of evidence isn't evidence that a longer period might not have taken place, think about the logic you're using here!

    I can accept both scenarios, you can't. Therefore to "prove" the validity of any one of these scenarios is futile to the discussion.

    IF dinosaurs walked the Earth alongside Humans (which I, and the society accept at least as a possibility), it doesn't automatically follow that the Earth and Life was created in 144 hours.
  5. Ratiocination

    Ratiocination Senior Member

    Jehovahs Witness
    Again, what are you talking about??? Because you've made up a rule about "double symbolized/spiritualized the language", doesn't mean that rule is valid. There are separate thoughts going on in Psalm 90:4. One talks about "yesterday", the other is "a watch". Each of these are said to be 1000 years, so which is it? Yesterday, or, a watch? or is this verse just pointing out that time is viewed differently from Jehovah's standpoint?
  6. Ratiocination

    Ratiocination Senior Member

    Jehovahs Witness
    Ok, DAY 6...
    What time of the day did God create the Domestic Animals?
    What time of the day did God create the Creeping things?
    What time of the day did God create the Wild animals?
    What time of the day was Adam created?
    What time of the day did God plant a Garden in Eden?
    What time of the day did God explain the subjugation of the Animals under Adam?
    What time of the day did God "settle" Adam in the garden?
    What time of the day did God explain the command regarding the tree?
    What time of the day did God ask Adam to name ALL the animals and how long did this take?
    What time of the day did God cause Adam to fall into a DEEP sleep?
    What time of the day was Eve created?

    Just some rough times would be good.
  7. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    United States
    Follow up question:

    Which video or videos did you watch in full? [you only had to consider one, minimally, as I will have some questions that will follow up with it/them]​
  8. Ratiocination

    Ratiocination Senior Member

    Jehovahs Witness
    I will watch this one, but please note it's 2 hours long so may take me some time, maybe even longer than 24hrs :oldthumbsup:
  9. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    United States
  10. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    United States
    While you're still considering the first video, another question to occupy the time [it is ticking]:

    Genesis 2:1-3 & Exodus 20:11 KJB, says that God rested the 7th Day, all the way back in Genesis, and that "the seventh day" is "the sabbath of the LORD [JEHOVAH] thy God [Elohiym]" [Exodus 20:10 KJB]:

    Genesis 2:1 KJB - Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

    Genesis 2:2 KJB - And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

    Genesis 2:3 KJB - And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

    Exodus 20:11 KJB - For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
    The WTS says,

    "... This verse contains ... a statement of what God did on the seventh creative day. ..." - [1]
    So, when God "made" the sabbath, was it "made" for "the man" Adam [and thus all humanity in him]?

    I ask, because Jesus said this:

    Mark 2:27 KJB - And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

    Mark 2:27 GNT TR - και ελεγεν αυτοις το σαββατον δια τον ανθρωπον εγενετο ουχ ο ανθρωπος δια το σαββατον​

    Literally, '... the sabbath [of the LORD [JEHOVAH], the 7th day, context] was made/created for the man ...'

    The only "the [definite article] man" [Hebrew: 'ha adam'] that was around when things were "made" [thus at Genesis], is "Adam" [and all humanity in him]. This agrees with Genesis 2:7, which speaks of "the Adam":

    Genesis 2:7 KJB - And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    Genesis 2:7 HOT - וייצר יהוה אלהים את־האדם עפר מן־האדמה ויפח באפיו נשׁמת חיים ויהי האדם לנפשׁ חיה׃

    Genesis 2:7 HOT Translit. - waYiytzer y'hwäh élohiym et-ädäm äfär min-häádämäh waYiPach B'aPäyw nish'mat chaYiym way'hiy ädäm l'nefesh chaYäh

    Genesis 2:7 LXX* (so-called) - καὶ ἔπλασεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν ἄνθρωπον χοῦν ἀπὸ τῆς γῆς καὶ ἐνεφύσησεν εἰς τὸ πρόσωπον αὐτοῦ πνοὴν ζωῆς, καὶ ἐγένετο ἄνθρωπος εἰς ψυχὴν ζῶσαν.

    Genesis 2:7 NWT - And Jehovah God went on to form the man out of dustd from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life,e and the man became a living person.*f
    Thus, would you agree that the LORD [JEHOVAH] God [Elohiym] "made" "the seventh day" "the sabbath of the LORD [JEHOVAH] thy God [Elohiym]" "for" Adam, "the man", and that God set the example for "the man" the first time by having "rested" in it way back then, and then blessed and hallowed it "for" "the man" - Adam; for God having "made" it "for" "the man" as a holy blessing and delight?
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
  11. Ratiocination

    Ratiocination Senior Member

    Jehovahs Witness
    Mark 2:27 has a very specific context and is not a broad statement regarding the institution of the sabbath as you claim. The Jews were misapplying the sabbath to mean that even ears of grain cannot be plucked. Jesus therefore points out that the sabbath was meant to benefit man (under the law, hence the misapplication of such law by the Jews), not to be detrimental to one's health!
    For you to push this statement all the way back to Eden is unfounded, and simply rests on the words "sabbath" and "man", therefore not a great connection. You really need to find a statement that says the sabbath was kept by such men.

    Anyway... The video was a fairly good watch considering it's age... :oldthumbsup:
  12. Ratiocination

    Ratiocination Senior Member

    Jehovahs Witness
    When can we get on to prophecy? I thought that was the point of this thread...?

    What fascinates me about 7th day Adventists is that Charles Russell attended one of your meetings/services held by Jonas Wendell way back. He was attracted by the new teachings regarding death and the state of the dead and no doubt chronology. This was where i thought we were going. While 7th Day Adventistism was a massive improvement on mainstream theology, it didn't go far enough, the trinity for example! And Chronology!
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2018
  13. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    United States
    Follow up question, so are you saying that the word "made" [Mark 2:27 KJB] is not a reference to creation, in connection with the word "sabbath", and "the man"?

    What singular "the man" was Jesus talking about then?

    Yes, I know it is an old video, but worth it.

    Follow up question, in reference to the work done by Dr. Robert V. Gentry, here is the standing offer he has made in regards his conclusions:

    “This was the basis of the laboratory-based test presented to the scientific community in my response to Damon's letter in the May 29, 1979, issue of EOS. Two excerpts from my response show how this test was stated:

    . . . Therefore I regard the failure to resolve the long-standing controversy in geology which concerns the origin of the Precambrian granites to be because such rocks are primordial and hence not necessarily explainable on the basis of conventional principles. Even though I think they further qualify for that role in their association as basement rocks of the continents, nevertheless I would consider my thesis essentially falsified if and when geologists synthesize a hand-sized specimen of a typical biotite-bearing granite and/or a similar size crystal of biotite.

    I will likewise relinquish any claim for primordial 218Po halos when coercive evidence (not just plausibility arguments) is provided for a conventional origin. ... and in this respect I will consider my thesis to be doubly falsified by the synthesis of a biotite which contains just one 218Po halo (some of my natural specimens contain more than 104 Po halos/cm3). ... (Gentry 1979, 474)” [Dr. [Hon.] Robert V. Gentry; Creation's Tiny Mystery; page 65] - Creation's Tiny Mystery, Chapter 5: Reverberations from Scientists, Part A
    Since this scientific evidence is shown/demonstrated by lab, and nature itself, the earth cannot be tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands, or millions, or even billions of yeas old, but can only be several thousand, due to the compression of said halos in coal seams that run through multiple continents.

    Do you agree with this scientific evidence and conclusion?

    btw, this is prophecy, which I shall show in a minute.
  14. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    United States
    I am on prophecy, you just cannot see it yet [not being derogatory in any way]. If you would genuinely accept the days of creation as literal 24 hour days, only 6,000 years ago, est., I can show you something, spectacular there in regards prophecy.

    As for the state of the dead, etc, I see it the other way 'round, in that the WTS does not go far enough, for instance:

    Read a sermon here, that was given me, by God [only 1 page long] - Immortal Soul/Spirit Theology - Are You Practicing Necromancy? - Sincerely Dead ...

    I do not believe in the Roman Catholic defined 'trinity'. It is in error. I believe what scripture says, hence my thorough replies in the other thread. This is not the point of this thread.
  15. Ratiocination

    Ratiocination Senior Member

    Jehovahs Witness
    Not sure I remember coal seams in the video, maybe I missed it. At any rate... Here's the rub as far as I see according to the video; The guy made a good presentation of Granite (Deep level) being cooled very quickly in order to retain the halos. Necessary because of the short half life of polonium [at three days]?? Whether this process happened yesterday, 1000 years ago, or 100 billion years ago was not the point of the video [I have only watched it once so I may be mistaken]. He was talking about rapid cooling, i.e. created rocks. Rocks made specifically for the purpose. So maybe you could point me to the place in the video that states or argues for "recent" creation? To my knowledge it was "quick" creation?

    Apologies if I've missed something in the video, I listened to it in the car, and my wife was talking at the same time, but I think I got the idea.
  16. Ratiocination

    Ratiocination Senior Member

    Jehovahs Witness
    Well, most likely the "man" in the immediate context... David Verse 25.
    Most likely the "made" was at the law covenant first instituted in the wilderness. As I said previously, you will need to show instances of where faithful men like Abraham [God's Friend] observed such a thing???

    Problem... If your prophecy rests on such things as "science" [current science], and singular words like "the", then I'm not sure how stable the rest of your prophetic structure is likely to be.

    But I am interested for sure what the rest of the structure looks like. I do realise that sometimes individual segments of ones beliefs might seem weak, but this should be rare (The Trinity of any colour has weakness all the way through from verse to verse. Whereas the subordination of Christ as a created being is DIRECTLY stated [in numerous places] along with the uni-personal nature of God in the Sheema). The fact is if you're going to introduce chronology, it must have a fixed start point, something in the middle, and a sure end, with world events matching up to the flow of time without fail.

  17. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    United States
    I do want to thank you for spending this time with me and taking the time to answer questions [you are the real first WTS member to do that, at least in my personal experience, and it is much appreciated], as it is refreshing [though frustrating all at the same time]. :)

    Say hello to your wife for me.

    In part, within the video, there is continued mention of the rapid creation of the granite foundation of the earth, the pillars as it were, who would mean that it would take place within less than 24 hrs for day 1 [commanded and it stood fast], this also affects the measurement of the radio-clocks; and also the details in his "book" in regards the Halos, in the instant layer of the creation granite, and in the forming layers of the flood, etc, coal, etc, which challenges, upon a radio-metric level, uniformitarianism [and at 52 minutes or so, in cross-exam from leading evo-sci-fi, detailed in the book also], which you can read online for free here - Creation's Tiny Mystery: Table of Contents

    You can see a short video here [if interested], which expands upon it [a little less old, but still dated, still unrefuted] - Video Evidence for Earth's Instant Creation - Polonium Halos in Granite and Coal - Earth Science Associates

    The Young Age of the Earth [Robert V. Gentry; jump to about 45 minutes, to short cut it]:

    Fingerprints of Creation:

    He also has material against Big Bang, and material on the stretching of the Heavens here:

    However, if you will you can also consider the other previous video material as well, so I don't have to type it all out. I have attempted to give condensed materials.
  18. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    United States
    Brother, the text says, "the sabbath was made", right?

    When was the sabbath "made"?

    Only in Genesis, as there is only 7th day the sabbath of the LORD.

    If we were to read the text and substitute "the man" with "David", let's read it again:

    Mark 2:27 New Ratiocination Version - And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for David, and not David for the sabbath:
    So, "the sabbath", which was "made" at creation, was "for" "David", not Moses, etc? God, at creation, "made" "the sabbath" for a single ["the"] person, David, who was to come several thousand years later?

    I showed from Genesis, that the very words "the man" exist there, and this was Adam, and thus all in him, including you and me, even "all flesh" of man:

    As it was in the beginning, so too into eternity [prophecy]:

    Isaiah 66:23 KJB - And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.​

    "Made" refers to creation. The "sabbath" was not "made" at Mt. Sinai. It already existed, as stated in Exodus 5, 16 & Exodus 20:8-11 KJB, and before:

    Exodus 16:28 KJB - And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?​

    The Ten Commandments aren't the old covenant. Read Exodus 19:3-8 KJB, carefully, you'll see two covenants if read prayerfully. I can share more in the new thread I will create.


    Exodus 31:13 KJB - Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.​


    Children of 'Israel'.

    Who is 'Israel'?


    Who is Jacob?

    Son of Isaac.

    Who is Isaac?

    Son of Abraham.

    What did God say of Abraham?

    Genesis 26:5 KJB - Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

    Genesis 18:19 KJB - For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.​

    Isaac, Jacob, thus his "children ... after him ...", even the children of Israel ...

    Matthew 1:2 KJB - Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;

    Luke 3:33 KJB - Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda,

    Luke 3:34 KJB - Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,​

    Why weren't the children of Israel keeping it in Egypt in the time of Moses? They had been long before, but after Joseph died, and a new Pharaoh arose, and enslaved them, into bondage, into sin... they forgot it, and more work was incresaed upon them, and thus God said:

    Exodus 20:8 KJB - Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.​

    Who was Abraham?

    The Friend of God, as Moses was, as the Disciples are, and the friends of God are those who keep his commandments, and He is the LORD, and does not change, for God is no respecter of persons - the Sabbath was given to "the man", Adam in Eden, made for him, and all his children:


    2 Chronicles 20:7 KJB - Art not thou our God, who didst drive out the inhabitants of this land before thy people Israel, and gavest it to the seed of Abraham thy friend for ever?

    James 2:23 KJB - And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.​


    Exodus 33:11 KJB - And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.​


    John 15:14 KJB - Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

    John 15:15 KJB - Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
    Jesus, said, in regards John 15:14, go to John 14:15;

    John 14:15 KJB - If ye love me, keep my commandments.​

    Jesus what commandments were you talking about for us to keep? Where were you quoting from? Who were you quoting?

    Exodus 20:6 KJB - And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

    Deuteronomy 5:10 KJB - And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.​

    Oh, the Ten Commandments, including the 7th Day the Sabbath of JEHOVAH Jesus my God. Exodus 20. Yourself. Gotcha' Jesus. Thank you again for making it so simple. :)

    The Holy Spirit is given to them that obey Him -

    Acts 5:32 KJB - And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
    Pretty simple.

    Jesus, when you said that the Holy Ghost would lead us into all truth, what did you mean? What is truth?

    Psalms 119:142 KJB - Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

    Psalms 119:151 KJB - Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth.

    Psalms 25:10 KJB - All the paths of the LORD are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.

    John 17:17 KJB - Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

    John 14:6 KJB - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    1 John 5:6 KJB - This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

    Deuternomy 32:4 KJB - He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

    1 John 3:4 KJB - Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    Thank you again Jesus, your word is so clear. Truly you are the God of righteousness. Let me sing a Psalm unto thee:

    Psalms 119:169 KJB - TAU. Let my cry come near before thee, O LORD: give me understanding according to thy word.

    Psalms 119:170 KJB - Let my supplication come before thee: deliver me according to thy word.

    Psalms 119:171 KJB - My lips shall utter praise, when thou hast taught me thy statutes.

    Psalms 119:172 KJB - My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.

    Psalms 119:173 KJB - Let thine hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts.

    Psalms 119:174 KJB - I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight.

    Psalms 119:175 KJB - Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee; and let thy judgments help me.

    Psalms 119:176 KJB - I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.​

    What about Noah? Did he keep the Sabbath?

    2 Peter 2:5 KJB - And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;​

    What was righteousness by faith? Go back, look at Psalms 119:172 KJB. What was Noah preaching? Repent, receive the Creator's [the JEHOVAH of the 7th Day Sabbath] grace and obey His commandments. 7th Day Adventists, are from Alpha to Omega [the 7th day to the second coming [advent], as Adam, Enoch, Noah, Job, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Israel, etc, etc Jesus, even unto today...]

    As it was in the days of Noe, instead of obeying God in His Holy Commandment [Exodus 20:8 KJB], the "bought, they sold", "thy planted, they builded", and the wicked never had "rest":

    2 Peter 2:21 KJB - For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

    Exodus 20:8 KJB - Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.​

    What did Jesus say about being drowned in the depths of the sea, by teaching a person to sin, and break God's law?

    Matthew 18:6 KJB - But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

    Mark 9:42 KJB - And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

    Luke 17:2 KJB - It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.​

    The flood [sea of water] came and took those sabbath-breakers away. Another global disaster [sea of fire] is coming ...

    Micah 6:8 KJB - He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God.

    Romans 7:12 KJB - Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.​

    God's prophecy rests on His unchanging word.

    Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word - "the".​

    I will be creating a new thread soon [as time goes]. I am glad you are interested, for I do want to go into this also. Chronology begins with Genesis 1:1 KJB, "In the beginning ..."

    In fact, there's a whole sermon just in those three words when you add the next word, "God".

    All things, ought to begin with God. Thinking about marriage, "In the beginning God ..." Thinking about a school/career? "In the beginning God ..." Thinking about what to eat and drink? "In the beginning God ..." Thinking about what to wear/do today? "In the beginning God ...", and thus Jesus said, "without me, ye can do nothing."
  19. Ratiocination

    Ratiocination Senior Member

    Jehovahs Witness
    Sorry mate, this lengthy response is in reply to just three short paragraphs. This is ridiculous... Gish Gallop, Goodbye
  20. Ratiocination

    Ratiocination Senior Member

    Jehovahs Witness
    [To other readers of this thread... This is an issue across multiple threads at the same time and is not limited to just this thread]

    God's word was written to humble people and didn't need pages and pages of information to cover just one point. You are buried under a mountain of information that most of the time that doesn't even relate to the point at hand, it's just side issues. You must be able to see that this tactic is not convincing of your position, it's really not. I'll tell you what, if I can muster the time (and brainpower) to respond to this over the next few days then I will, but please don't hold your breath. Sorry I think you've lost me on this one.

    None of those verses say that the Jew observed the sabbath prior to the wilderness (not directly), you've done some of your usual theological back flips through the scriptures to glue this together using single words. This is not good news.

    The wise and intellectual ones will not find the truth. This is a very powerful statement when you think about it. Your manner of argumentation requires a great deal of intellectual ability in order to follow the arguments and information at hand. It's for this reason that to me, your style of study does not glean the truth. Seriously, try and think about this just for a minute. You have a book written to EVERYONE, not just those of an IQ above 115 say. That means that everyone less intelligent has to rely on the teachings of the intellectuals; "Sit down everyone, we'll show you the truth", "Just trust us if you don't follow". This is indicative of the Roman Catholic Church, and it's happened with you too! You simply do not need all these additional arguments, you've restricted what is a very simple message for salvation and turned it into a University Degree!

    Here's a thought; maybe research how many of your core beliefs are DIRECTLY stated in the scriptures (Like Colossians 1:15, a nice simple phrase). Be honest with your results, see really where you are lacking, and where you need to fill in any holes with theological somersaults. Make a list of DIRECTLY stated core beliefs, and beliefs that need another verse or two to make sense. When I say another verse or two, that's your limit, these additional verses themselves must say DIRECTLY what you hope they should.

    It is possible to make God's word say whatever you want it to. There's an argument for every turn in the Bible, but how many arguments are required? This is a question you need to answer. Are you ARGUING for a truth more than you are just simply reading it off the page. "The Father is greater than I" or "Jehovah is one God" for example; simple in in their simplicity.

    To me the bible is like a sieve, it only lets through the fine stuff, anything too bulky and it gets clogged up. So be fine, be refined by God's word, don't let unnecessary arguments weigh you down (they clearly have). You should carry as little theological weight around with you as possible. Ask yourself; could it be that I'm mistaken... Could it be that I rely more on my arguments, than I do on the straightforwardness of the scriptures. The Bible is SO straightforward it hurts. No need to complicate it with University style study. Most people can't keep up with you, hence the reason you're probably wrong!
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2018