Questions From a Protestant

[Mary7]

My first time was comical as well. I took my mom to a local Greek parish. The Matins ended up being in all greek and by the time the small entrance was around my mom was practically dragging me out so she could go to her Baptist church. She still uses that as an excuse not to go to church with me. "BUT I WENT TO AN ALL GREEK SERVICE WITH YOU ALREADY"

lol moms.

"small entrance'?

 

[~Anastasia~]

"small entrance'?

It's early in the Liturgy. The Gospel book is brought out and held up, and we sing the hymn of the day.

 

[~Anastasia~]

The entrances are easy points to identify where you are in the Liturgy if you don't understand anything. They are not repeated at any other point, and something happens that is easy to see. The small entrance is when the Gospel is brought out. The great entrance is later and the chalice with the wine and the paten (plate) with the bread - both for the Eucharist - are brought out.

 

[FenderTL5]

"small entrance'?

Orthodox worship is full of symbolism/types and customs which have spiritual and/or historical significance.

In a modern service, After the opening prayer litanies the Deacon or Presbyter will "process" the Gospel book from the alter, around the iconostasis (icon screen) to the front of the church. This is called the Small Entrance.
It harkens back to the time when the Deacon/Presbyters would lead the faithful through the street to the church. Along the way, the Deacon would call out the prayer litany while the faithful responded with "Kyrie Eleison (Lord Have Mercy)." This would continue until they arrived at the church, then the call for "Wisdom..." then go inside and the service would begin with the hymns.
All of this is maintained in the Liturgy, it just happens inside.
That's just the historical aspect, there's also spiritual symbolism as well..
FUN FACT: In Orthodox services the New Testament is read from two volumes. The Gospel Book contains the four Gospels (Matthew, Mark Luke, John) and is usually a larger, ornate book. The epistles are kept with the Chanters in a more common looking book.

 

[GoingByzantine]

You positively made my day, GB. Made my day. I meant that, and I remember saying it!! And I was right, too! You're a blessing to this forum and the Church!!!!

Thank you for nudging me down the right path.

 

[GoingByzantine]

I think that @~Anastasia~ and @FenderTL5 did a great job of saying what the small entrance is, but I did also find a somewhat blurry (but still helpful) video of what a small entrance looks like, hopefully I'm not spoiling the surprise.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I believe having matins after vespers with a vigil is due to the liturgical day starting around sunset. We have vespers (evening service), followed by matins (morning) and the first hours (of the hourly prayer cycle). I believe that an all night vigil in monasteries would end with Divine Liturgy...or that might be before matins? @ArmyMatt any clarification?

I think on Athos it ends with the Liturgy and literary lasts all night. that is why Litya is served with bread and wine, something for the people to keep their strength before they fast to prepare for communion

 

[Kajiki]

Just in case something can’t be worked out with the Hagerstown parish I was wondering if there were any protestant denominations that were as close as possible to EO. I’ve hear of connections between John Wesley and EO so would Wesleyan or maybe Methodist/United Methodist churches possible be close to EO. I want to get somewhere where its as close to possible to our Early Church Fathers.

 

[All4Christ]

Just in case something can’t be worked out with the Hagerstown parish I was wondering if there were any protestant denominations that were as close as possible to EO. I’ve hear of connections between John Wesley and EO so would Wesleyan or maybe Methodist/United Methodist churches possible be close to EO. I want to get somewhere where its as close to possible to our Early Church Fathers.

While there are some connections with the Wesleyan doctrine of salvation, I wouldn’t say it is close to Orthodoxy as a whole. There are some pretty major differences.

Are you in Frostburg because of college or is that your hometown?

 

[Jesus4Madrid]

Just in case something can’t be worked out with the Hagerstown parish I was wondering if there were any protestant denominations that were as close as possible to EO. I’ve hear of connections between John Wesley and EO so would Wesleyan or maybe Methodist/United Methodist churches possible be close to EO. I want to get somewhere where its as close to possible to our Early Church Fathers.

I get what you are asking, because I have been there. I tried attending a conservative Anglican Church for a while (because after all, I thought, they have apostolic succession).

But the Anglican Church is not as close as possible to the Early Church Fathers. Look how St. Irenaeus describes the Early Church:

“1. The Church, though dispersed through our the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith...

2. As I have already observed, the Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although scattered throughout the whole world, yet, as if occupying but one house, carefully preserves it. She also believes these points [of doctrine] just as if she had but one soul, and one and the same heart, and she proclaims them, and teaches them, and hands them down, with perfect harmony, as if she possessed only one mouth. For, although the languages of the world are dissimilar, yet the import of the tradition is one and the same. For the Churches which have been planted in Germany do not believe or hand down anything different, nor do those in Spain, nor those in Gaul, nor those in the East, nor those in Egypt, nor those in Libya, nor those which have been established in the central regions of the world. But as the sun, that creature of God, is one and the same throughout the whole world, so also the preaching of the truth shineth everywhere, and enlightens all men that are willing to come to a knowledge of the truth. Nor will any one of the rulers in the Churches, however highly gifted he may be in point of eloquence, teach doctrines different from these (for no one is greater than the Master); nor, on the other hand, will he who is deficient in power of expression inflict injury on the tradition. For the faith being ever one and the same, neither does one who is able at great length to discourse regarding it, make any addition to it, nor does one, who can say but little diminish it. Against Heresies, I.10.1-2

As this passage reveals, the Early Church Fathers belonged to a church that was unified in doctrine, though scattered around the world. Is the Anglican Church so unified? I think the Orthodox Church is really the only church that can claim this.

 

[Kajiki]

While there are some connections with the Wesleyan doctrine of salvation, I wouldn’t say it is close to Orthodoxy as a whole. There are some pretty major differences.

Are you in Frostburg because of college or is that your hometown?

It's both actually. I was raised in this county and still have almost two years of college here left.

 

[GoingByzantine]

Just in case something can’t be worked out with the Hagerstown parish I was wondering if there were any protestant denominations that were as close as possible to EO. I’ve hear of connections between John Wesley and EO so would Wesleyan or maybe Methodist/United Methodist churches possible be close to EO. I want to get somewhere where its as close to possible to our Early Church Fathers.

You raise a good question, and I think that the answer is unfortunately that there are very few protestant churches (if any) who have not strayed from the teachings of the early church fathers.

Probably the closest group to the Eastern Orthodox in terms of theology are the Oriental Orthodox, but we disagree with each other on the nature of Christ. After that, there are few churches that even come close to being similar in theology and in our preservation of early Christian practice.

 

[~Anastasia~]

It used to be when Greeks moved to the US, they were told to attend an Episcopal Church (but not to receive Sacraments) if there was no Orthodox Church. But there has been some major changes through most of the Episcopal/Anglican community since then (recognizing same-sex "marriages" ... even ordaining practicing same-persons and couples, and other large departures) which have caused this to no longer be adviseable.

Catholics and Lutherans both have their similarities, but differences as well. For that matter, later attempts to reform have actually moved closer to Orthodoxy on this point or that, in trying to recapture the early Church, but always retaining other errors that should have been rejected.

I certainly believe they are all sincere people who are doing the best thing according to their conscience and knowledge to seek God, but I don't know a truly good answer to your question.

Coptic/Oriental Orthodox are indeed very close, matching us exactly in most things. I read books and watch lectures by Coptic Orthodox teachers. But as you noted, there still exists a schism between us and some difference. Not nearly to the degree of every other communion out there there.

I always found that most interesting, that the first split in Christianity occurred between the Oriental and Eastern Orthodox, so with the greatest number of centuries (by far) separating us, logic might suggest we would be the furthest apart. And yet you can see the dedication of early Christianity to maintain the faith, and see what that faith looked like, by comparing us two. The fact that we are so close to one another demonstrates all the faith held in common from that time, and the fact that we have not innovated.

I really hope things work well for you. There are things suggested for folks who are too far from a parish. You can be in touch with a priest, undergo catechesis, be received into the Church, and go periodically to receive the Eucharist, while keeping reader services at home. This isn't ideal of course. But if you know like-minded folks, it has often happened that mission parishes are begun in just such a way, and often a priest will travel over to celebrate the Divine Liturgy periodically, or on Saturdays, or whatever works in such a case. The advantage is that you are surrounded by Orthodox parishes ... just a bit further than easy convenience. But it can be worked for good, by the grace of God.

You have been in my prayers, and continuing to pray for you.

 

[Kajiki]

Thank you all for your prayers. I just went to my university library and found volume 1 of "The Faith of the Early Fathers" put together William A. Jurgens.

 

[All4Christ]

Could Father come celebrate a vespers at the college sometime? Our priest does that regularly with local colleges.

 

[Kajiki]

Could Father come celebrate a vespers at the college sometime? Our priest does that regularly with local colleges.

See my issue with requesting that is two-fold. The Father used to go to Cumberland off and on but stopped due to demand in 1997. (Funnily the year I was born) Also for all I know I could be the only person interested. When I was in Cru I only ever met catholics and protestants....I dunno how to find people...

 

[Jesus4Madrid]

See my issue with requesting that is two-fold. The Father used to go to Cumberland off and on but stopped due to demand in 1997. (Funnily the year I was born) Also for all I know I could be the only person interested. When I was in Cru I only ever met catholics and protestants....I dunno how to find people...

You read “Becoming Orthodox”, about Cru people who became Orthodox, right?

I was in Cru as well.

 

[All4Christ]

See my issue with requesting that is two-fold. The Father used to go to Cumberland off and on but stopped due to demand in 1997. (Funnily the year I was born) Also for all I know I could be the only person interested. When I was in Cru I only ever met catholics and protestants....I dunno how to find people...

Often, Catholics and Protestants - from Campus Crusades and other groups - are interested in attending the vespers service with our local college vespers services. It may be worth a try! A lot of people are curious and want to attend to see what it is like. Besides...vespers is almost all Scripture

We used to have a Taize service before Father came, and that was always packed. Now there is a lot of interest in the Vespers services...about once a month.

 

[GoingByzantine]

See my issue with requesting that is two-fold. The Father used to go to Cumberland off and on but stopped due to demand in 1997. (Funnily the year I was born) Also for all I know I could be the only person interested. When I was in Cru I only ever met catholics and protestants....I dunno how to find people...

From what I can tell there are a couple of Orthodox churches near Morgantown as well, it could be possible that they have parishioners who live in your area or attend school in your area. It might be worth it to reach out to these churches to see if there is someone who could give you a ride. From what I can tell, Mogantown is about equidistant to the church in Hagerstown.

Here is a Facebook Page for one of the Churches, if it helps:

St. Mary's Orthodox Church Morgantown, WV

 

[Kajiki]

From what I can tell there are a couple of Orthodox churches near Morgantown as well, it could be possible that they have parishioners who live in your area or attend school in your area. It might be worth it to reach out to these churches to see if there is someone who could give you a ride. From what I can tell, Mogantown is about equidistant to the church in Hagerstown.

Here is a Facebook Page for one of the Churches, if it helps:

St. Mary's Orthodox Church Morgantown, WV

Thank you so much, I just emailed the Father there, I'm honestly not having an issue calling people by titles like Father...probably because the military ranking system of TSA. Titles have always been something to respect for me but I've heard some Protestants don't like it.