Questions From a Protestant

[All4Christ]

Always a journey! I guess the problem comes when we think we understand everything

yep

 

[ArmyMatt]

Always a journey! I guess the problem comes when we think we understand everything

yep, it's the other extreme, the side of questioning what the Church has always taught because we think we know better today.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Wheaton is a big one as well.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I was Roman Catholic. Instead of sola scriptura, we were brainwashed to believe in sola papum. Pope alone. Many fundamentalists like leaving evangelical circles for Roman ones because you exchange one legalism for another. You leave the idea of seeing the Bible as an all-purpose religious owners manual to using the Pope as a sort of living guru life manual. Truth is, Christianity was, is, and always will be MESSY!!! The conciliar model of Church is the true model set by God. Nicaea, Chalcedon, Ephesus, etc. The bishops are our shepherds, but it can get messy. Ask St. Nicholas with Arius or St. Athanasius and his struggles!! But then again, Love is always messy. Marriage, friendship, partnership, all these things are messy.

I was Catholic for years, realized it was a huge departure from Biblical Christianity as I saw it then. So we went to the Anglican Church. We loved it there in so many ways, but it also was incomplete! We ping-ponged between Anglican and Catholic for about a decade (I kid you not) before I read a book that really opened my eyes to Orthodoxy. Long story, but I took a year to visit my Orthodox parish before I converted.

You have given me some things to think on.
I am curious.. have you always been Orthodox? RCC before that or protestant?
If not protestant then you would not have a concept of how very hard this is when your entire life has been immersed in basing everything on scripture alone.
I will take one baby step at a time and not go past my conscience

 

[GoingByzantine]

@Mary7 and @Kajiki, one thing that you will find as you research Orthodoxy is that the people on this message board are some of the most caring people imaginable...all of the members on here genuinely care about your spiritual development. I honestly found their guidance and Christian love to be a very comforting thing when I was in your shoes. Honestly, if it were not for the Orthodox members of this forum, I would probably still be wallowing in a state of confusion at my old church (a group of people I still greatly admire, but disagree with on theology).

I hope that @gurneyhalleck1 does not mind, but I want to share on small sentence that he wrote to me in a private message at the tail end of 2014:

"Orthodoxy would be BETTER with you!"

Wow...this was like getting struck with an arrow in my soul.

I had long been pulled towards Eastern Orthodoxy, but the Christian love that came forth from this message was like nothing I had ever experienced before. As a Catholic, nobody seemed to care one way or another about my spiritual development (I had to teach myself about the faith after being poorly catechized as a teenager), and when Protestants asked me to join their churches it seemed like all they cared about was inflating their numbers before moving on to the next person.

When Gurney said that Orthodoxy would be better with me, he whether intentionally or not, started my conversion process towards the Orthodox Church. It has been three years since he wrote me that message, and I can confirm to you after officially joining the Orthodox Church, that I most certainly made the right decision.

Therefore, I want each of you to know that Orthodoxy would be BETTER with you as a part of it as well!

Please do follow the direction that God leads you, but if the holy spirit leads you to Orthodoxy, we would be blessed to have you.

 

[☦Marius☦]

As a former Baptist I can say that I used to be one of those anti Catholic bigots who called everything I wasn't familiar with Idolatry and was more focused on judging others than actually improving myself.

I have never felt more joy then at my Parish St Nektarios. The Joy is present both in the service and in the community. I have never felt more love in one room then at that parish, and that is because the Orthodox know the true love of communing with each other.

As for Iconography, Others gave pretty good explanations for it, but it should be noted that not all church tradition comes directly from scripture. You have to remember that scripture wasn't available widely until about 300 AD many of our traditions pre date the official new testament, and are the traditions Paul talks about keeping. Our tradition is directly from the Holy spirit through the witness of the church, and has been preserved because nothing enters the church through an individual, traditions and dogma only become tradition when they are accepted by the entire church and through church councils. If a church council approved iconography, than that is good enough for me.

As far as musical instruments go, no we do not usually have them in most parishes. There are a few that have taken to using organs but that is a bit outside tradition. Generally the reason for this is Instruments bring too much emotion into the music and much of Orthodox practice is done to avoid creating a false sense of worship through emotional manipulation. I do get chills at many chants, but that is because they bring my mind to holy places and remind me of angelic hosts more than a particular harmony exciting me.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Regarding Penal Substitution -

A lot can be said, but I like the way Fr. Evan Armitas explains things. The first caller to this episode October 15, 2017 - Orthodoxy Live | Ancient Faith Ministries - asks about PSA, and Fr. Evan answers from a slightly different angle (though with the same information) about some of the reasons why we reject some of the particulars. If you can listen to that first caller (I think the call runs somewhere around 10 minutes of time)

This is a milder version of explaining what we agree with and what we don't. I usually explain in stronger terms. But maybe beginning as he does is better (he's SO good at explaining things to callers). So rather than me explaining, let me know if you can't listen to that first. And of course if you have questions, please feel free to ask.

 

[~Anastasia~]

(Reply is to the thread, about aluke's post, not really speaking directly to you aluke.)

Generally the reason for this is Instruments bring too much emotion into the music and much of Orthodox practice is done to avoid creating a false sense of worship through emotional manipulation. I do get chills at many chants, but that is because they bring my mind to holy places and remind me of angelic hosts more than a particular harmony exciting me.

I really appreciated your comments that we focus on real spiritual development and actually knowing how to love each other, because I find these to be strengths of Orthodoxy.

But I wanted to comment on what you said here. Yes, the Church is careful not to emotionally manipulate us into experiencing feelings that we will assume is worship. There are precautions written into how we do things to prevent this.

(And I for one appreciate it as I found when returning to the area and trying to attend some of my favorite churches from before, they had sunk to varying degrees of being highly manipulative - that's a big part of what set me searching for something more real, and I discovered that sacredness was what I was really missing.

I've experienced powerful emotions at times during worship in the Orthodox Church - very profound joy, awe, thankfulness. But I know absolutely that they are the result of what is actually happening in terms of worship, prayer, and communion with Christ, rather than the effect wrought by a skilled worship leader arranging his music set. (Forgive me, I don't mean to say that every denomination does this - maybe most don't - but I've been a part of some where it absolutely was the stated goal and method. And it gets tiresome, and you start to long for something REAL.)

I can still enjoy some of my favorite music from before. There's nothing at all wrong with that. But to be honest, that kind of sentiment pales compared to what I have experienced in other ways now, so I guess I'm not even motivated to seek it out anymore. Though the irony alongside that might be - when I hear a hymn or song with truly good lyrics, I appreciate it far more now than I did before when it was more about how they made me feel.

I guess speaking personally for myself, I have found that focusing too much on my feelings makes it about me, and not about God, so that doesn't hold much interest for me anymore, where before it was like my very breath. Yet now that I'm not focused on myself, God actually gives me more.

 

[Kajiki]

I’ve finished reading the Didache for the first time. I mean what’s there to say, it all lines up with scripture and it makes me curious as to why it wasn’t included. It definitely deserves inclusion in my unlearned opinion. I find it establishes many things we, as Christians should do and what we actual do in some cases (meaning outside of the Orthodox faith).

Oh! And one of the members of the parish in Hagerstown, within driving distance, is going to go to the Father there about a way to get me there!

 

[All4Christ]

Oh! And one of the members of the parish in Hagerstown, within driving distance, is going to go to the Father there about a way to get me there!

Wonderful news!!

 

[prodromos]

I’ve finished reading the Didache for the first time. I mean what’s there to say, it all lines up with scripture and it makes me curious as to why it wasn’t included. It definitely deserves inclusion in my unlearned opinion. I find it establishes many things we, as Christians should do and what we actual do in some cases (meaning outside of the Orthodox faith).

Oh! And one of the members of the parish in Hagerstown, within driving distance, is going to go to the Father there about a way to get me there!

Orthodoxy always struck me as a very practical faith. It doesn't just say "be holy" but actually provides the tools to achieve that end.

 

[Kajiki]

So I managed to read the entire “Becoming Orthodox” book. I type this with tears welling up tbh. I truly hope I can get to a Divine Liturgy as soon as possible. I need to experience this fullness everyone seems to talk about. I’m so deeply happy. I actually had to watch a video on how to do the sing of the cross correctly lol. As has been said I’m certainly not Orthodox today, but I am not Protestant. I’m simply a Christian seeking for the Apostolic Church and I am positive that I have found it.

God Bless you all, you have helped me tremendously and I trust you all for more help as I begin towards a new beginning.

 

[Jesus4Madrid]

I’ve finished reading the Didache for the first time. I mean what’s there to say, it all lines up with scripture and it makes me curious as to why it wasn’t included. It definitely deserves inclusion in my unlearned opinion. I find it establishes many things we, as Christians should do and what we actual do in some cases (meaning outside of the Orthodox faith).

Oh! And one of the members of the parish in Hagerstown, within driving distance, is going to go to the Father there about a way to get me there!

I remember reading the Didache for the first time. It was written very early—around 70 AD—and says this about fasting:

“Chapter 8. But let not your fasts be with the hypocrites, for they fast on the second and fifth day of the week. Rather, fast on the fourth day and the Preparation (Friday).”

Since I wanted to be an authentic Christian like those in the early church, I started to fast on Wednesday and Friday. Then I discovered that Orthodox continue this practice until today.

Some early canons do consider the Didache to be part of the New Testament. But the Holy Spirit guided the Church to our Canon, which excludes the Didache. Still, these early writings are instructive and early Christians would be shocked that people today don’t heed the advice of the Didache and the Fathers.

 

[Mary7]

Didn't they start referring to Oral Roberts University as the St Vladimir's of the South, due to so many theological students converting to Orthodoxy after their exposure to the excellent Patristics library on campus?

Bishop Mark, of the Antiochian diocese in Toledo was a former professor at Oral Roberts University.

wow lol
My research started when Hank Hannigraft converted. Someone on this forum gave me a link to an interview with him and from there I have had about 20 different browser tabs open all day every day. If nothing else I now look differently at the Reformation. I was vaguely aware there was an Eastern church but that was way far away somewhere. The RCC has always been presented as the harlot of Babylon and now I don't look at it that way.

 

[Mary7]

As a former Baptist I can say that I used to be one of those anti Catholic bigots who called everything I wasn't familiar with Idolatry and was more focused on judging others than actually improving myself.

As far as musical instruments go, no we do not usually have them in most parishes. There are a few that . Generally the reason for this is Instruments bring too much emotion into the music and much of Orthodox practice is done to avoid creating a false sense of worship through emotional manipulation. I do get chills at many chants, but that is because they bring my mind to holy places and remind me of angelic hosts more than a particular harmony exciting me.

That is why I have never been able to adapt to most Protestant services (especially 'charasmatic').. the emotions. I always thought it was due to my having been raised until I was 18 in the Episcopal church. I do not like emotional manipulation or outbursts in church. I was never in a group that believed in 'holy laughter' but I was appalled when I heard about it. I have not been in a non denominational group for 30 years after realizing that most today (especially on TV) are false teachers. I wanted the 'safety' of a mainline denomination but now most of them are allowing gay clergy. I really wanted to return to the Episcopal church but that issue is a big problem to me.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I’ve finished reading the Didache for the first time. I mean what’s there to say, it all lines up with scripture and it makes me curious as to why it wasn’t included. It definitely deserves inclusion in my unlearned opinion. I find it establishes many things we, as Christians should do and what we actual do in some cases (meaning outside of the Orthodox faith).

Oh! And one of the members of the parish in Hagerstown, within driving distance, is going to go to the Father there about a way to get me there!

only because we don't know who wrote it. it was included in some early lists of Scripture, but since its authorship is unknown, it was not included in the canon to avoid confusion.

however, that does not mean it isn't true.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Didn't they start referring to Oral Roberts University as the St Vladimir's of the South, due to so many theological students converting to Orthodoxy after their exposure to the excellent Patristics library on campus?

Bishop Mark, of the Antiochian diocese in Toledo was a former professor at Oral Roberts University.

not only that, but their old professor of Church history was an Orthodox priest. Dr David Ford (my professor of Church history) and Fr Antony Hughes are two other prominent Orthodox Christians who came from ORU.

 

[☦Marius☦]

OP its quite a journey. And I might add the enemy will not make it easy. One unmistakable thing that makes Orthodoxy recognizable as the true faith is the lengths Satan will go to discourage new members. It took me about 2 years to fully accept church doctrine. Some days you will simply have to submit to the fact that the church fathers have authority and we should follow their church.

I've heard of many new converts experiencing misfortunes on their days of baptism that could not be coincidence. If you are willing to step into this, know it is a commitment to a fight.

 

[Kajiki]

OP its quite a journey. And I might add the enemy will not make it easy. One unmistakable thing that makes Orthodoxy recognizable as the true faith is the lengths Satan will go to discourage new members. It took me about 2 years to fully accept church doctrine. Some days you will simply have to submit to the fact that the church fathers have authority and we should follow their church.

I've heard of many new converts experiencing misfortunes on their days of baptism that could not be coincidence. If you are willing to step into this, know it is a commitment to a fight.

I will be honest Aluke, my Christian walk has always been one I’ve looked at as a battle. Being raised in part by the Salvation Army. Thsat name wasn’t chosen at random. We are always taught about the battle for our souls that rages on and all. There are certain things, like that, that may be hard for me to die down on.


Also that mention of “holy laughter” earlier. I was at a Territorial Young Adults conference for TSA this Summer and this one girl would not stop that….it was at random times it seemed….even during a testimony of God’s Glory…they gave her an esteemed award due too her being moved by the Holy Spirit. I didn’t say anything at the time because I didn’t wanna be rude. It’s not that I deserved such a reward…..but I didn’t even get to hear a prayer because all I heard was hoopin and haollarin tbh….

 

[FenderTL5]

only because we don't know who wrote it. it was included in some early lists of Scripture, but since its authorship is unknown, it was not included in the canon to avoid confusion.

however, that does not mean it isn't true.

Thank you for pointing that out.

I still remember my thoughts when I read the Didache the first time; it reads like my notes from catechism. I've often wondered if the authorship is unknown for this reason; it's not the teaching of the Apostles, as written by an Apostle BUT rather the teaching of the Apostles written by someone sitting under their instruction taking notes.