Questions From a Protestant

[Kajiki]

I suggest that people inquiring into Orthodoxy approach it from the reverse angle from what they're doing now. People come into TAW and look at Orthodoxy issue by issue by issue picking the issues apart and seeing if it lines up with what they see as something they can stomach or accept based on previous Protestant or Catholic biases.

Here is what I suggest---something simple.

Look at the oldest Church on the planet Earth. What is it? ORTHODOXY.
Which Church has the best argument that she is the original Church Christ built Himself? ORTHODOXY.
Which Church has remained conciliar in nature with the ancient polity unscathed? ORTHODOXY.
Which Church has the original apostolic succession of the first apostles until now? ORTHODOXY.

Ok, so we've established Orthodoxy is the Church. Let me emphasize the word THE in THE CHURCH. It's not "a" Church among many. It's THE Church, period.

So after you've figured this basic and obvious Truth, then icon kissing is fine. Why? Because THE Church Christ built has done it for 2,000 years since St. Luke painted the first icon.

Praying to saints? OKAY! Why? It was built by THE Church, a venerable two-millennia custom.

The list goes on and on. Orthodoxy is THE Church, so her customs are holy. No need to go line by line of issues and try to talk yourself into it. If you accept the basic Truth, the rest must, I repeat, MUST follow suit.

What you are saying rings true. However, doing something just because is a strange concept to me and several other people. Understanding why the Early Church and thus Orthodoxy do things is how I can understand better. Like how I’m about to dive into this book with a Bible in hand and a pencil for personal notes.

 

[GoingByzantine]

What you are saying rings true. However, doing something just because is a strange concept to me and several other people. Understanding why the Early Church and thus Orthodoxy do things is how I can understand better. Like how I’m about to dive into this book with a Bible in hand and a pencil for personal notes.

I hope you have a productive reading session, if through your reading you have any questions, please let us know. Ultimately you should only go at the pace that you feel comfortable with, the narrow road is long and must be carefully navigated.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Do you have the Orthodox Study Bible? Go get it on Amazon and prepare to see the Bible in the eyes of the Fathers, the ancients, in its truest illumined exposition.

What you are saying rings true. However, doing something just because is a strange concept to me and several other people. Understanding why the Early Church and thus Orthodoxy do things is how I can understand better. Like how I’m about to dive into this book with a Bible in hand and a pencil for personal notes.

 

[Kajiki]

Do you have the Orthodox Study Bible? Go get it on Amazon and prepare to see the Bible in the eyes of the Fathers, the ancients, in its truest illumined exposition.

Sadly, I do not yet have one. And to be honest I’m still scared to take so many steps at once. I want to be all in but please understand. I’m going to read this book and go from there.

Speaking of, I’m finished chapter 2. I find this so so very interesting for one reason in particular, well 2. One being that I was for a while a member of the Campus Crusades for Christ organization or Cru as its now called. I just find it so interesting that he has such an amazing background this author and its nice to see common ground.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Sadly, I do not yet have one. And to be honest I’m still scared to take so many steps at once. I want to be all in but please understand. I’m going to read this book and go from there.

Speaking of, I’m finished chapter 2. I find this so so very interesting for one reason in particular, well 2. One being that I was for a while a member of the Campus Crusades for Christ organization or Cru as its now called. I just find it so interesting that he has such an amazing background this author and its nice to see common ground.

Don't feel rushed. God knows what He is doing. And the Orthodox Church isn't going anywhere.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

You shouldn't feel rushed just by buying an Orthodox Study Bible. Honestly I know Protestants, Catholics, tons of people who read the OSB and can't believe the scholarship and awesome footnotes. You're not signing on the dotted line by buying one.

Frankly, the first thing to do is visit a Divine Liturgy. Once you do, the Holy Spirit will take hold of you like nobody's business. But until that wonderful time, in a baby steps investigatory stage I'd buy the OSB to see the Truth of the Ancients and know what we're all about.

Sadly, I do not yet have one. And to be honest I’m still scared to take so many steps at once. I want to be all in but please understand. I’m going to read this book and go from there.

Speaking of, I’m finished chapter 2. I find this so so very interesting for one reason in particular, well 2. One being that I was for a while a member of the Campus Crusades for Christ organization or Cru as its now called. I just find it so interesting that he has such an amazing background this author and its nice to see common ground.

 

[Kajiki]

I decided to go ahead and order a cheap Orthodox Study Bible. I guess I’ll now have three Bibles:

NIV Study Bible

New Japanese Version/New King James Version Bilingual Bible (I’m doing a Bible study with an agnostic Japanese exchange student)

And that Orthodox Study Bible

I just made it through the Chapter titled “The T Word” It was harder to chew through tbh…I have heard all my life how evil tradition is. However, even looking into scripture by itself the idea of not following God’s tradition is abhorrant.

I dunno how I’ve read through this much. I’ve also filled about six pages in a college ruled notbook with notes including a short timeline of the Christian Church. When the book uses scripture to prove its point I read the scripture jot it down and jot down what it says in summary format. I’m a messy writer sadly so itll probably be useful to me alone as I embark on my walk with God further.

Thank you all and God Bless!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

It's incredible how I've found myself losing two hours just reading THE FOOTNOTES in my OSB!!! One time I went all the way through Exodus and Numbers (LOL!) just reading the patristic footnotes! Nuts! Beware! It's addictive! LOL

I decided to go ahead and order a cheap Orthodox Study Bible. I guess I’ll now have three Bibles:

NIV Study Bible

New Japanese Version/New King James Version Bilingual Bible (I’m doing a Bible study with an agnostic Japanese exchange student)

And that Orthodox Study Bible

I just made it through the Chapter titled “The T Word” It was harder to chew through tbh…I have heard all my life how evil tradition is. However, even looking into scripture by itself the idea of not following God’s tradition is abhorrant.

I dunno how I’ve read through this much. I’ve also filled about six pages in a college ruled notbook with notes including a short timeline of the Christian Church. When the book uses scripture to prove its point I read the scripture jot it down and jot down what it says in summary format. I’m a messy writer sadly so itll probably be useful to me alone as I embark on my walk with God further.

Thank you all and God Bless!

 

[Mary7]

The list goes on and on. Orthodoxy is THE Church, so her customs are holy. No need to go line by line of issues and try to talk yourself into it. If you accept the basic Truth, the rest must, I repeat, MUST follow suit.

That is not enough for me to base accepting everything without question. If something is in the Scriptures then I accept it. If I know for sure that something was done during the first century that could be convincing but 2nd and 3rd century.. too big a chance of that being added on by man.

 

[All4Christ]

That is not enough for me to base accepting everything without question. If something is in the Scriptures then I accept it. If I know for sure that something was done during the first century that could be convincing but 2nd and 3rd century.. too big a chance of that being added on by man.

I certainly understand where you are coming from. It is important to learn and understand what is taught before accepting something, which is why we have a period of catechism for those officially saying that they want to determine if they should become Orthodox. (I do trust interpretations of the early church more than the later church though, if for nothing else, due to them being closer in time to Jesus’ resurrection).

One of the pivotal things that I considered was the formation of the canon of Scripture and the timeline of when Scripture was written. 1 John - 3 John were written about 90AD and Revelations around 95AD. So my question - at what level age wise would people not start to question unacceptable changes to the Church? Such as - if their grandparents age of Christians, who were part of the apostolic church, all condemned the practice - wouldn’t there be people talking out against it if the church started to consider the Eucharist to be the body and blood of Christ? The first book I considered to be useful was Polycarp since he was a disciple of the Apostle John. Second, I realized that the Bible canon was not fully determined until the 300s. The canon developed over time - but it developed by the Church on the first few centuries after Jesus’ resurrection. The Holy Spirit guided them for that. Is it possible He guided them in other things before the canon was formalized? Finally, Paul said to hold onto their traditions passed on through word and through Scripture. What are those traditions? How can we know they are the traditions passed on through the apostles and apostolic church? Nothing can contradict Scripture (key word Scripture, not a specific interpretation)...but if it is in harmony with a possible interpretation, then it made more sense.

Please don’t consider this to be pressure. It just is something that helped me research and learn - and helped me on my journey.

 

[Mary7]

My biggest concern.. the main thing is.. basis of salvation
What I believe with my whole heart is that thru out the OT and the NT the theme is coming of the Messiah who would shed his blood as the atonement for our sins and when he said 'it is finished'... it was finished. By grace are ye saved not by works etc
Now, I understand that we are not saved by works of the Law but that after salvation the fruit of that salvation will be seen by good works of kindness etc (James)

I do not believe that there is one thing i can do to add to the finality of my salvation. Should I not produce good fruit the Lord has always been faithful to bring that to my attention and at one time when I strayed.. I felt the hand of His discipline which brought me back around.

So, it bothers me that we would pray for the dead's sins to be forgiven. i confess daily so that I won't die with unconfessed sin but the main thing is.. all my sins past present and future were nailed to that cross.
If someone could live in sin and know that someone would just pray them 'out of trouble' then where is the necessity of the cross?
What saves us.. the Blood. The cross. Or our good works and other people's prayers. If the latter is true then there was no point for Jesus to come down here and sacrifice his life on the cross. I just do not see in Scripture that anything else is needed but the cross. I see that baptism is called for but the thief on the cross showed it is not necessary for salvation. IF there was true repentance and salvation then the desire for producing fruit is there. I do not hold with the 'get out of jail free card' where you 'just pray a prayer' and then nothing changes.

The icons and other issues (although important) pale in comparison for me as to what I see as the basis of Christianity.
Thank you for your patience

 

[All4Christ]

Great questions. Perhaps discussing the core question of how we are saved would be a good place to start? It’s admittedly a big subject and is extremely important.

To understand where you are coming from: Do you adhere to penal substitution?

 

[Mary7]

Great questions. Perhaps discussing the core question of how we are saved would be a good place to start? It’s admittedly a big subject and is extremely important.

To understand where you are coming from: Do you adhere to penal substitution?

I know there is a difference between this and substitutionary atonement but not really sure what the difference is. I believe that without the shedding of blood there is no atonement and that Jesus is the Lamb of God sacrificed for us. Not sure that I believe he was punished instead of us but more like a 'legal transaction' that the Father required.. but I am no scholar and just don't have a clear understanding of the differences.

 

[Mary7]

What are those traditions? How can we know they are the traditions passed on through the apostles and apostolic church? Nothing can contradict Scripture (key word Scripture, not a specific interpretation)...but if it is in harmony with a possible interpretation, then it made more sense.

Please don’t consider this to be pressure. It just is something that helped me research and learn - and helped me on my journey.

Very good points. I have been researching the Apostolic fathers.. those that were taught by the apostles.
I read the Diache and letter from Clement.. polycarp is on my list Also re reading the book of Acts slowly and from a new light.

 

[ArmyMatt]

My biggest concern.. the main thing is.. basis of salvation
What I believe with my whole heart is that thru out the OT and the NT the theme is coming of the Messiah who would shed his blood as the atonement for our sins and when he said 'it is finished'... it was finished. By grace are ye saved not by works etc
Now, I understand that we are not saved by works of the Law but that after salvation the fruit of that salvation will be seen by good works of kindness etc (James)

I do not believe that there is one thing i can do to add to the finality of my salvation. Should I not produce good fruit the Lord has always been faithful to bring that to my attention and at one time when I strayed.. I felt the hand of His discipline which brought me back around.

So, it bothers me that we would pray for the dead's sins to be forgiven. i confess daily so that I won't die with unconfessed sin but the main thing is.. all my sins past present and future were nailed to that cross.
If someone could live in sin and know that someone would just pray them 'out of trouble' then where is the necessity of the cross?
What saves us.. the Blood. The cross. Or our good works and other people's prayers. If the latter is true then there was no point for Jesus to come down here and sacrifice his life on the cross. I just do not see in Scripture that anything else is needed but the cross. I see that baptism is called for but the thief on the cross showed it is not necessary for salvation. IF there was true repentance and salvation then the desire for producing fruit is there. I do not hold with the 'get out of jail free card' where you 'just pray a prayer' and then nothing changes.

The icons and other issues (although important) pale in comparison for me as to what I see as the basis of Christianity.
Thank you for your patience

if prayers for the dead are an issue, I would point out that St Paul does this in 2 Timothy 1. St Onesiphorus was dead prior to that epistle being written.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I decided to go ahead and order a cheap Orthodox Study Bible. I guess I’ll now have three Bibles:

NIV Study Bible

New Japanese Version/New King James Version Bilingual Bible (I’m doing a Bible study with an agnostic Japanese exchange student)

And that Orthodox Study Bible

I just made it through the Chapter titled “The T Word” It was harder to chew through tbh…I have heard all my life how evil tradition is. However, even looking into scripture by itself the idea of not following God’s tradition is abhorrant.

I dunno how I’ve read through this much. I’ve also filled about six pages in a college ruled notbook with notes including a short timeline of the Christian Church. When the book uses scripture to prove its point I read the scripture jot it down and jot down what it says in summary format. I’m a messy writer sadly so itll probably be useful to me alone as I embark on my walk with God further.

Thank you all and God Bless!

Just wanted to say briefly -

I've always loved how Genesis starts out in the Japanese translation. (If there's only one.) God said to the light, "Be!" is basically how it is read. Such a dynamic understanding of creation!

And that evil T word lol. Maybe the book told you this, but in the Scriptures the word variously translated as "traditions/s" and "teaching" (as in doctrine) is the same word. Translators often chose "tradition" when the context was something bad, and "teaching" when it was good, so we can develop a bias against Tradition based on something that wasn't originally there. Not all translations do this, but enough so that it's easily a bias that isn't recognized as to the source.

You sound like a man on a mission. I was the same way when I discovered Orthodoxy. I was very sick so in bed, but awake and alert, so I had nothing else to do for about 16 hours a day - for months. I'm actually quite thankful.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I do think an understanding of what we believe about salvation is good. No one in his right mind would think that he could just go about happily sinning and expect the Church to "pray him out" and safely saved after death. We do NOT believe this.

Though God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. But that is because He knows and judges the heart.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I know there is a difference between this and substitutionary atonement but not really sure what the difference is. I believe that without the shedding of blood there is no atonement and that Jesus is the Lamb of God sacrificed for us. Not sure that I believe he was punished instead of us but more like a 'legal transaction' that the Father required.. but I am no scholar and just don't have a clear understanding of the differences.

We do believe that He was the atoning sacrifice.

PSA adds some aspects to the ancient belief and it is those details we don't accept.

I have Church today (this is a wonderful week!) but will check back later if no one else is able in the meantime.

 

[Mary7]

if prayers for the dead are an issue, I would point out that St Paul does this in 2 Timothy 1. St Onesiphorus was dead prior to that epistle being written.

It says to his 'house' which to me implies his family

 

[Mary7]

We do believe that He was the atoning sacrifice.

PSA adds some aspects to the ancient belief and it is those details we don't accept.

I have Church today (this is a wonderful week!) but will check back later if no one else is able in the meantime.

What is PSA?