Questions From a Protestant

FenderTL5

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..Nativity Fast apparently starts today. What does that mean?
The Nativity Fast is a 40 day fasting period leading up to the Nativity Of Christ (Christmas).
So from now until Christmas, we will be fasting in preparation of the Holy Day (Holiday). It's somewhat similar to Lent which precedes Pascha (Easter) only not as strict.
Afterwards, we still celebrate the Twelve Days of Christmas, which is the feast period between the Nativity (Christmas) and Theophany (January 6th).
 
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GoingByzantine

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One link i had already found in all my searching but had not seen the video which did help some. But I have to be convinced in my heart that it is not a sin .. I won't just try to get used to it.
I might salute the American flag but I would never kiss it because that is giving it too much glory.

I hear you, the first time I saw people kissing icons it was quite shocking. It didn't take me long to find out that in the Byzantine tradition, kissing things as a sign of respect is super common...people kiss the bible, they kiss the priests hand, they kiss the cross and sometimes people even great each other with a kiss. This just did not mesh with my American sensibilities at first!

Then I consulted holy scripture and found that kissing as a greeting or as a sign or respect is surprisingly biblical, but I had foolishly overlooked this fact for many years. There are number of passages that tell us to greet one another with a holy kiss; notably Romans 16:16, 1 Peter 5:14, and 1 Corinthians 16:12. I think that probably the most significant passage for me comes from Luke 7, wherein the sinful woman washes and kisses Jesus's feet, and Jesus chastises the pharisee for not doing the same.

Luke 7:45-47
You gave Me no kiss, but this woman has not ceased to kiss My feet since the time I came in. Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little.”

Today I have no problem kissing an icon of the lord, or his sacred word, or his venerable cross, in large part because I know through his own word that he accepts kissing as a sign of great respect and veneration.

I likewise have no problem kissing an icon of a saint, because I know that we are all part of one body, united through the holy spirit. It is simply my way of greeting these saints of the lord with a holy kiss.

I hope this helps.
 
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prodromos

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One link i had already found in all my searching but had not seen the video which did help some. But I have to be convinced in my heart that it is not a sin .. I won't just try to get used to it.
I might salute the American flag but I would never kiss it because that is giving it too much glory.
Do you kiss your Mum and Dad? Your Grandparents? Your siblings? Is that not done out of love and respect?
 
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~Anastasia~

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One link i had already found in all my searching but had not seen the video which did help some. But I have to be convinced in my heart that it is not a sin .. I won't just try to get used to it.
I might salute the American flag but I would never kiss it because that is giving it too much glory.

I do understand and agree that we should never go against our conscience. It was a ways into my catechesis before I became convinced. It was one of the most difficult hurdles for me. Honestly, I had studied and knew the intellectually reasoned arguments but that wasn't sufficient for me. So I prayed. And continued praying. And I still remember that "aha!" moment one day while stepping out of the Church into the bright sunlight when I finally simply understood with all of my being. It was a grace from God. :) I could tell you what I realized and why (it has much to do with love ... to love and respect others, especially BECAUSE OF what God has done in, for, and through them - in no way dishonors or detracts from God, or diminishes our love for Him. It is the same as many children of the same father - a good father will be pleased that his children love, help, and respect especially what the father has managed to instill in each of them. He won't become jealous of his children's love for one another. If anything it dishonors the father to refuse to do so).

But it is something you are right - in my opinion at least - to refuse to simply adopt a practice that might go against your conscience.

There is a place for someone who is actually in the process of becoming Orthodox to accept that the Church has reasons for teaching and believing as she does, and our disagreement is likely just due to the fact that we don't understand properly. But with that said, while we do well to respect the teaching of the Church, I think we show proper respect for God to follow our conscience in our own actions. No one is ever forced to venerate an icon, btw. If that had been the case before I understood, I likely would never have become Orthodox.
 
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~Anastasia~

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It was also helpful to me to be in a Greek parish. We DO greet each other, nearly always, not with just one kiss, but two in our case (both cheeks).

One day the dear lady who asked to sponsor me into the Church, a wonderful woman in her 80s who was loved and respected by all, kissed my hand. I could see people were a little surprised. I looked into it and learned that Greek grandchildren historically were taught to kids the hands of their grandparents as a sign on respect to them. (Certainly not worship, I will be quick to add.) It might be akin to a deep bow in some Asian cultures (which I was also pretty steeped in.) But it was the fact that she had kissed my hand, rather than the other way around, that surprised people.

Thinking on this over time helped me a great deal too.

I sometimes wonder if part of American society has rebelled against or lost the idea of respecting or honoring persons in various contexts. We began with the rejection of the idea of a king so as to emphasize the equality of all. Pride is a national value.

But Christianity teaches us to be members of one another, to prefer others before ourselves, to think of others as better than ourselves, and so on. Giving honor to those who are exemplary in their walk of faith and dedication to God would seem to be natural. Though frequently it will be resisted or discouraged by them for the sake of their own humility. In the end, all glory properly goes to God.
 
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Mary7

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Adding on a bit:
The taking on of a new/different name when becoming Christian is demonstrated in the Bible. Jesus renamed one or more of the disciples (Cephas became Peter) and Saul became Paul - so the principle itself is well established.

That makes more sense then.
 
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Mary7

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sometimes wonder if part of American society has rebelled against or lost the idea of respecting or honoring persons in various contexts. We began with the rejection of the idea of a king so as to emphasize the equality of all. Pride is a national value.

You might be right on that.. Maybe we threw 'the baby out with the bathwater'.
Maybe some of this IS cultural like the kissing of a hand. Nope.. I am not there with that yet lol :)

I think there are some things I am not convinced about but are not stumbling blocks to me but the icons.. that's a big block :)
I guess also just the 'foreign ' feel that I see but.. that video someone posted didn't look quite as strange. I have mostly watched (countless) youtube videos of Orthodox services but they were fairly large.

Do women have to wear a head covering? Dresses only to church?
 
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~Anastasia~

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You might be right on that.. Maybe we threw 'the baby out with the bathwater'.
Maybe some of this IS cultural like the kissing of a hand. Nope.. I am not there with that yet lol :)

It's ok. You don't have to be. :) God knows the heart and knows how He is leading us. :) I merely offered it as an illustration.

I think there are some things I am not convinced about but are not stumbling blocks to me but the icons.. that's a big block :)

It was a big one for me too. But that's why I prayed a great deal about it, and it took a little time.

Another big stumbling block for me was the Theotokos. Ironically perhaps I suddenly understood honoring those who had been heroes of the faith, like the ones mentioned early in Hebrews. But somehow I STILL had resistance to including Jesus' own mother in that category. That was obviously a deep-seated bias against Catholicism (and I do believe what I see there often goes into excess, and frequently find myself at odds with Catholics over this, so I'm not defending everything associated with the Virgin Mary).

It's funny, but that took much longer and much more prayer (and study to understand exactly what we mean as Orthodox) to settle this issue for me, but that demonstrates I was biased, since she is clearly among the Saints and actually most highly honored by God Himself.

(By this I refer to what an honor and sacred trust it would be to be charged with bearing God Himself within her, and being the person He took human flesh from. It is an unspeakable honor.)

I guess also just the 'foreign ' feel that I see but.. that video someone posted didn't look quite as strange. I have mostly watched (countless) youtube videos of Orthodox services but they were fairly large.

I can understand that too. I've had a lot of various multi-cultural experiences so perhaps it was easier for me. But I have on more than one occasion walked into a parish full of people who were all Greeks, or Russians, a stranger among them, known to no one, not understanding a word they said, or able to identify any of the food they gave me lol, and have felt very much a cultural outsider. I understand it can be difficult. I was very joyful to find a very welcoming parish of nearly all American converts once, and REALLY enjoyed the atmosphere in that case, though it was also identifiably Orthodox.

(I should also add that those ethnic parishes, without fail, welcomed me warmly and treated me like an adopted child by the time my visit was over.)

Do women have to wear a head covering? Dresses only to church?

That varies a lot depending on where you are. Some are pretty strict, others are not. Most Greek parishes are probably at one end of the spectrum, with few or possibly none wearing head coverings, and most Russian parishes are probably at the opposite end, with some having scarves available to lend even because they must be worn. Dresses may be more widely worn than head coverings, but it's more habit than requirement if head coverings are also optional.

In our parish (Greek) there are a few of the Greek ladies who wear head coverings (some only when receiving Communion), a number of Russian, Romanian, and an Ethiopian who do, and me (being an American convert, but I used to belong to another fellowship where women covered their heads to pray and I developed that conviction. Most of the women never do. Most women wear skirts and shirts, but no one raises an eyebrow if a woman wears pants, and they sometimes do, myself included - especially if I'm going to work after. In the winter iirc it is quite common for women to wear pants.

Modesty is important (though even so, sometimes you see people who might seem not to be dressed so) but it often doesn't focus on particular rules. But in some ethnic parishes it might.
 
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GoingByzantine

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The book, which turns out to be books sorta, came in today. Becoming Orthodox by Peter E. Gilquist and a small booklet called Finding the New Testament Church by Jon E. Braun.

I hope you enjoy reading those books! Becoming Orthodox is a classic, especially for people coming from a protestant background. Your local library might also have some Orthodox books, I have access to the local university library and there are multiple aisles of works about, or related to Orthodoxy. :)
 
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~Anastasia~

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I hope you enjoy reading those books! Becoming Orthodox is a classic, especially for people coming from a protestant background. Your local library might also have some Orthodox books, I have access to the local university library and there are multiple aisles of works about, or related to Orthodoxy. :)
I'm jealous, lol.

I have access to the books in two counties' library systems, and the best reading they have are a book of quotes of the Desert Fathers (by a Catholic author, I think, not that that matters). There was a CD recording of a Divine Liturgy but the library reports it lost. Even Catholics are under-represented in our local libraries, given that they are a good percentage of the population.

But some folks can find access. :)
 
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~Anastasia~

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Thanks to all of you.. you have been extremely helpful :) I may be popping back in with more questions though!

Welcome back anytime, in fellowship or with questions!

(We even have a section that allows argument if that ever helps you or anyone else, but personally I don't like to dialogue that way).

It was a pleasure having you visit. :)
 
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Mary7

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I'm back with another one : )
I understand the Orthodox do not believe in purgatory but do you have something similar where they are in a state that you try to pray them out of?
My beliefs are that salvation and also forgiveness of sins comes from the blood atonement of Jesus on the cross and that this decision must be made before death. Therefore after death you are with Christ... or not.

I understand the part about the Saints saying 'how long oh Lord' but I don't see that we here on earth can change their position/location.
It would seem that praying for the dead in order to attain a better spiritual position would constitute 'works'.. then why bother with the cross?
 
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GoingByzantine

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I'm jealous, lol.

I have access to the books in two counties' library systems, and the best reading they have are a book of quotes of the Desert Fathers (by a Catholic author, I think, not that that matters). There was a CD recording of a Divine Liturgy but the library reports it lost. Even Catholics are under-represented in our local libraries, given that they are a good percentage of the population.

But some folks can find access. :)

The Catholic section at the University library has even more books, but most of them are collecting dust, I picked up a book about early Roman iconography and a spider fell out of it. :eek: The orthodox section on the other hand is quite well visited, half of the books that I want to read are checked out!

I feel your pain with my local public library, the material there is scant and very "surface level", good for someone learning about Orthodoxy for the first time...but not good for in depth theology.

Do you have any colleges or universities nearby? Most seem to allow members of the public to receive guest membership.
 
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~Anastasia~

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The Catholic section at the University library has even more books, but most of them are collecting dust, I picked up a book about early Roman iconography and a spider fell out of it. :eek: The orthodox section on the other hand is quite well visited, half of the books that I want to read are checked out!

I feel your pain with my local public library, the material there is scant and very "surface level", good for someone learning about Orthodoxy for the first time...but not good for in depth theology.

Do you have any colleges or universities nearby? Most seem to allow members of the public to receive guest membership.
I was thinking of that, since you mentioned it was a university library. We have both, so I'm thinking of checking. :)

I remember years ago for an anthroplogy class needing access to Native American religious beliefs and they had a decent collection.
 
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I'm back with another one : )
I understand the Orthodox do not believe in purgatory but do you have something similar where they are in a state that you try to pray them out of?
My beliefs are that salvation and also forgiveness of sins comes from the blood atonement of Jesus on the cross and that this decision must be made before death. Therefore after death you are with Christ... or not.

I understand the part about the Saints saying 'how long oh Lord' but I don't see that we here on earth can change their position/location.
It would seem that praying for the dead in order to attain a better spiritual position would constitute 'works'.. then why bother with the cross?


You might be misunderstanding purgatory as well but as far as the Orthodox position ...

I will say that we do NOT believe that a person can die condemned and we can somehow pray and make God change his mind. That is not why we pray for departed.

It's really very simple. We do pray for our loved ones because we love them. We don't know with certainty what anyone's condition is when they die.

When a person dies, their soul is either on the path toward God, trusting in Christ, loving God ... or else they are opposed to God. Remember that the judgement is not yet. But people will experience a foretaste of whatever condition their souls dispose them to.

We do believe our prayers benefit those we pray for. But we don't know how. Who knows? God is outside of time. Perhaps He will see those prayers and they can be converted as they die. Or perhaps they actually hate God and it amounts to "a finger dipped in water" as the rich man begged for - some momentary lessening of their torment. We don't know. We just ask for God's mercy.

We do pray for departed Orthodox Christians in the Church, asking God to forgive their sins and grant them rest in a place of light and refreshment. But the assumption is that they already had faith, already had Christ, already were asking forgiveness of their own sins, etc.
 
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~Anastasia~

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(Or rereading your post, maybe you DO understand purgatory. No, we do not believe in Purgatory. It is a Catholic doctrine teaching that the souls who are saved - but not perfect - go to a place where they become perfected by suffering temporal punishment for sins committed. Christ supposedly removed the eternal punishment, but the temporal remains and must be paid by the individual. Prayers are supposed to help them. There are a few points in here that Orthodox would have a problem with, but no need to keep discussing unless you wish to know.)
 
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ArmyMatt

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I'm back with another one : )
I understand the Orthodox do not believe in purgatory but do you have something similar where they are in a state that you try to pray them out of?
My beliefs are that salvation and also forgiveness of sins comes from the blood atonement of Jesus on the cross and that this decision must be made before death. Therefore after death you are with Christ... or not.

I understand the part about the Saints saying 'how long oh Lord' but I don't see that we here on earth can change their position/location.
It would seem that praying for the dead in order to attain a better spiritual position would constitute 'works'.. then why bother with the cross?

adding to what Anastasia said, if God is outside of time, our prayers for them after they die are a part of God's plan for them from before the foundation of the world. so, it's not that we can change God's mind, but prayers for them in the Church are powerful, and God acted upon those prayers before we even prayed them, because He knew we'd pray them.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Thanks to all of you.. you have been extremely helpful :) I may be popping back in with more questions though!

please do stick around and ask away!
 
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I suggest that people inquiring into Orthodoxy approach it from the reverse angle from what they're doing now. People come into TAW and look at Orthodoxy issue by issue by issue picking the issues apart and seeing if it lines up with what they see as something they can stomach or accept based on previous Protestant or Catholic biases.

Here is what I suggest---something simple.

Look at the oldest Church on the planet Earth. What is it? ORTHODOXY.
Which Church has the best argument that she is the original Church Christ built Himself? ORTHODOXY.
Which Church has remained conciliar in nature with the ancient polity unscathed? ORTHODOXY.
Which Church has the original apostolic succession of the first apostles until now? ORTHODOXY.

Ok, so we've established Orthodoxy is the Church. Let me emphasize the word THE in THE CHURCH. It's not "a" Church among many. It's THE Church, period.

So after you've figured this basic and obvious Truth, then icon kissing is fine. Why? Because THE Church Christ built has done it for 2,000 years since St. Luke painted the first icon.

Praying to saints? OKAY! Why? It was built by THE Church, a venerable two-millennia custom.

The list goes on and on. Orthodoxy is THE Church, so her customs are holy. No need to go line by line of issues and try to talk yourself into it. If you accept the basic Truth, the rest must, I repeat, MUST follow suit.
 
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