Questions From a Protestant

Dorothea

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yes, services are in English and yes, priests can cut their hair.

and for icons, kissing an icon is no more worship than kissing the photo of a loved one. as far as being named for a saint at baptism, that is also no different than being named for your grandfather. the practice is not man made, and as early as we can tell, Christians took the names of saints. we see this in the NT, as the tradition was for sons to take the names of their fathers (John the Baptist).
I always thought it interesting that Christ changed a few of the names of the Apostles. And further on the saints...There were Saints in the NT, such as St. Stephen.
 
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Dorothea

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One link i had already found in all my searching but had not seen the video which did help some. But I have to be convinced in my heart that it is not a sin .. I won't just try to get used to it.
I might salute the American flag but I would never kiss it because that is giving it too much glory.
I understand that. When I came back to the Church because I didn't grow up in it and had only gone a handful of times in childhood (baptized at one years old), and I didn't know much of anything when I came back to the church in 1995 (catechism classes with my husband in 1996, and he came home to the Church in 1997, a couple months before we married). It wasn't until the fall of 2007 that I asked the Saints for prayers for my son..and that was more out of desperation. I had no idea how to ask, but I just did by saying, "Please pray for the healing of my son." And that was it, and after that, my life has never been the same. The wave of support, love, and full coverage of the Saints since then has been inexpressible. Now, I realize you're talking about the icons, but to me, it's no different than kissing any other family member who has gone on to be with the Lord.

Also, there is a difference, I believe, between the American flag and a holy icon. The American flag is not a holy object of God. God works through matter in the world -- people and holy objects. So, it is not the same as the American flag, which is a symbol of a country - US.
 
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Dorothea

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Do women have to wear a head covering? Dresses only to church?
As others have said, it depends on the Orthodox Church you go to. In most Greek and Antiochian Churches, the women do not cover their heads, but it's regularly done in the Russian Orthodox Churches.
 
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Dorothea

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I’ve finished reading the Didache for the first time. I mean what’s there to say, it all lines up with scripture and it makes me curious as to why it wasn’t included. It definitely deserves inclusion in my unlearned opinion. I find it establishes many things we, as Christians should do and what we actual do in some cases (meaning outside of the Orthodox faith).

Oh! And one of the members of the parish in Hagerstown, within driving distance, is going to go to the Father there about a way to get me there!
Awesome!
 
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Dorothea

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As far as musical instruments go, no we do not usually have them in most parishes. There are a few that have taken to using organs but that is a bit outside tradition. Generally the reason for this is Instruments bring too much emotion into the music and much of Orthodox practice is done to avoid creating a false sense of worship through emotional manipulation. I do get chills at many chants, but that is because they bring my mind to holy places and remind me of angelic hosts more than a particular harmony exciting me.
On this subject of instruments, I thought I'd share my 18-year-old son's thoughts on why there aren't instruments in the liturgy (worship). He said the instruments are played in the bible (OT) when praising God as one of the Psalms says, but nowhere is it mentioned in the temple. Praise and Worship are two different things, he said. My son sees Protestant's "worship" as actually Praise. Whereas the Divine Liturgy is the carrying on of the old Jewish tradition of worship, but the sacrifice changed from spotless animals to the our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. If either Kaj or Mary are interested in the ties of early worship of the OT to the NT Christian Church, I HIGHLY RECOMMEND Fr. Tom Hopko's talk on this. I listened to this several weeks ago TWICE, because it was excellent, and I think he was speaking at Wheaton College (saw this college discussed in this thread lol). Here's the link to the youtube video where you can watch him speak on this:

 
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Dorothea

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I’ve received communication from Father Dennis Buck of the parish in Hagerstown! He needed my permission to share my message to others in the parish in order to find something we can do about this distance. He gave me spiritual advice concerning how to proceed before I can attend Divine Liturgy. He also said that he would like to send more literature my way if I would wish and he wanted to add me to the parish’s newsletter email list. So far I’ve only felt warmth from the Orthodox Church. I’m sure there are non warm welcoming people there but none I’ve met just yet.
Wonderful!
 
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Kajiki

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So I finally, yesterday, received word from my girlfriend’s corps officer (pastor for the Salvation Army) at first he mixed up Oriental Tradition and Eastern Orthodoxy. I pointed out the little mistake there and he then went on to say his issues with the Eastern Orthodox Church. He mentioned, of course, prayers for the dead, infant baptism, and faith with works. I’m pretty sure I understand the way prayers for the dead works as God is outside of time and knows these prayers before they are uttered. Also I’ve always personally struggled with this “faith alone” idea coz through our faith we will produce good works so the argument has always seemed asinine to me as I’m pretty sure no one says you straight up earn your way to heaven as none deserve that but through faith you will produce good works. I know this goes back to James and in a way it also goes back to the fruits of the spirit. We are known by our traits and the Faith Alone idea does give raise to certain crude and mean and possibly evil ideas if not just flat out apathy.
Also my, what I’m dubbing, quick journal on Early Christianity is already 9 pages long and tonight I get a copy of Saint Athanasius’ On the Incarnation.
 
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~Anastasia~

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When I consider the faith/works debate and the way theology develops over time, I look at the disagreement between Luther and Catholicism.

Catholics believe a little differently from us. Purgatory is not a matter of salvation, per se, since only "saved" souls supposedly go there, but because Catholics teach (a) that all sin must be "paid for" in a temporal sense (by us) in addition to the eternal sense (by Christ, i.e. Salvation) and also (b) that not only can "works" fill this gap, but the grace/pardon can supposedly be purchased with money ... Luther's "faith alone" was in protest to something that we as Orthodox don't believe anyway.

If someone makes a charge of "works salvation" against Orthodoxy, the only way that makes sense to us would be if we actually thought we could earn/purchase salvation through good deeds? And of course we don't believe that. We do believe that living faith will have works. And we believe that works serve to form us into Christ's likeness, which for us IS a part of salvation. But it is part of the process (since we consider "salvation" to be a journey/process that encompasses everything from conversion through judgement), and works are not a way for us to "buy" our way in.

The Sacraments are worth discussing, since it seems the SA doesn't use them at all?

Regarding prayers for the dead - and this is just my own little peculiarity. But when I was a Protestant, I used to have the habit any time I would see an ambulance or fire truck or car accident, I would pray for the people involved. It wasn't long before I was praying for their salvation, especially if any lives were lost. I reasoned maybe they were about to die. Or maybe they had just died. I didn't even know. But I was still ok with praying for them because God knew the whole thing from beginning to end, and it felt very uncharitable to refuse to pray for someone's salvation because I might accidentally utter the prayers after the person had just died. It began to seem ridiculous to me. So I guess I was praying for the (recently) dead long before I ever became Orthodox. Maybe that's why that transition wasn't so difficult for me.
 
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FenderTL5

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Just curious: have you actually read the Orthodox prayers for those who have departed?
In many cases, the prayers clarify the belief. What could seem, on the surface, as objectionable really isn't at all.
As a thought, the customary R.I.P. (Rest in Peace) is based in a prayer for the departed.

from the the little red Antiochian pocket prayer book:
Into thy hands, O Lord, I commend the souls of thy servants, NN., and beseech thee to grant them rest in the place of thy rest, where all thy blessed Saints repose, and where the light of thy countenance shineth forever. And I beseech thee also to grant that our present lives may be godly, sober, and blameless, that, we too may be made worthy to enter into thy heavenly Kingdom with those we love but see no longer: for thou art the Resurrection, and the Life, and the Repose of thy departed servants, O Christ our God, and unto thee we ascribe glory: to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit; now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.
 
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Kajiki

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The Sacraments are worth discussing, since it seems the SA doesn't use them at all?

Yes this is a good thing to get on. The lack of sacraments in the Salvation Army does have basis in history just not in scripture. Most Salvationists don’t even claim that it has any scriptural basis. In a way we actually create our own sacraments. Something to keep in mind about TSA is that it is neither a high church nor a low church. It is somewhere in between. We don’t practice baptism due to this idea that it is simply a profession of faith and we replace it with the signing of the Articles of War/ Soldier’s covenant. They do not practice Eucharist in an attempt to avoid looking like other churches however one is allowed to go to another church and practice Eucharist if that church has open communion. Also most Salvation Army Officers take a pilgrimage to the Holy Land and get baptized in the Jordan River. However Officers seldom preform baptisms on others. Marriage is also VERY similar to sacramental marriage as it gets very ritualistic with cords and robes and stuff. We also sometimes consider going to the altar/mercy seat a sacrament. TSA is very loose on sacraments but does publically state that none are preformed by the whole denomination. I honestly think that it is a simple side effect to its origens. It was not meant to be a denomination nor a church. It was a Christian Mission to the needy and lost souls but not a church until they amassed huge numbers and they all only wanted to go to Salvation Army meetings so making it a church occurred. It wasn’t officially called a denomination until the past fifty years.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Yes this is a good thing to get on. The lack of sacraments in the Salvation Army does have basis in history just not in scripture. Most Salvationists don’t even claim that it has any scriptural basis. In a way we actually create our own sacraments. Something to keep in mind about TSA is that it is neither a high church nor a low church. It is somewhere in between. We don’t practice baptism due to this idea that it is simply a profession of faith and we replace it with the signing of the Articles of War/ Soldier’s covenant. They do not practice Eucharist in an attempt to avoid looking like other churches however one is allowed to go to another church and practice Eucharist if that church has open communion. Also most Salvation Army Officers take a pilgrimage to the Holy Land and get baptized in the Jordan River. However Officers seldom preform baptisms on others. Marriage is also VERY similar to sacramental marriage as it gets very ritualistic with cords and robes and stuff. We also sometimes consider going to the altar/mercy seat a sacrament. TSA is very loose on sacraments but does publically state that none are preformed by the whole denomination. I honestly think that it is a simple side effect to its origens. It was not meant to be a denomination nor a church. It was a Christian Mission to the needy and lost souls but not a church until they amassed huge numbers and they all only wanted to go to Salvation Army meetings so making it a church occurred. It wasn’t officially called a denomination until the past fifty years.

Thanks for the explanation. That helps make some sense, and also fits in some older pieces I had read over the years which made me surprised when I learned (a few years ago on CF) that TSA is considered a denomination.

It sounds as though we could have some common ground in the thinking then ... Orthodoxy doesn't tightly define/number Sacraments (in a sense, at least compared to Catholics). I mention that to say that I'm interested that you mention going to the altar as a sacrament. Though I'd be curious what the purpose of going there is, in order to better understand.

I do really like the idea of being baptized in the Jordan River if it were possible.

Does TSA consider that there is any grace from God received through any of these?
 
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Kajiki

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Thanks for the explanation. That helps make some sense, and also fits in some older pieces I had read over the years which made me surprised when I learned (a few years ago on CF) that TSA is considered a denomination.

It sounds as though we could have some common ground in the thinking then ... Orthodoxy doesn't tightly define/number Sacraments (in a sense, at least compared to Catholics). I mention that to say that I'm interested that you mention going to the altar as a sacrament. Though I'd be curious what the purpose of going there is, in order to better understand.

I do really like the idea of being baptized in the Jordan River if it were possible.

Does TSA consider that there is any grace from God received through any of these?

They do not consider the grace of God to be bestowed through any of these. IThink this link best describes the major symbols found with the salvation army. Everything is symbolic as far as the mercy seat is concerned. https://salvos.org.au/taree/about-us/our-symbols/

Personally I like that General and Founder William Booth, who was a Methodist Preacher (hence free will theology and Wesleyan ideas throughout), had passion for people and tried to help the needy at a time when the churches of England were being very adverse towards the poor and homeless. I mean you had to pay to sit in a pew back then. So that’s why the Salvation Army was started. It’s almost like a mini reformation if ya think about it haha.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I would also add, as far as works go, that even the freedom to choose to do good works is a grace given to man, and we are commanded to work out our salvation with fear and great trembling according to St Paul.
 
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~Anastasia~

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They do not consider the grace of God to be bestowed through any of these. IThink this link best describes the major symbols found with the salvation army. Everything is symbolic as far as the mercy seat is concerned. https://salvos.org.au/taree/about-us/our-symbols/

Personally I like that General and Founder William Booth, who was a Methodist Preacher (hence free will theology and Wesleyan ideas throughout), had passion for people and tried to help the needy at a time when the churches of England were being very adverse towards the poor and homeless. I mean you had to pay to sit in a pew back then. So that’s why the Salvation Army was started. It’s almost like a mini reformation if ya think about it haha.

Thanks will have to look at this later. Bible study today. :)
 
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~Anastasia~

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They do not consider the grace of God to be bestowed through any of these. IThink this link best describes the major symbols found with the salvation army. Everything is symbolic as far as the mercy seat is concerned. https://salvos.org.au/taree/about-us/our-symbols/

Personally I like that General and Founder William Booth, who was a Methodist Preacher (hence free will theology and Wesleyan ideas throughout), had passion for people and tried to help the needy at a time when the churches of England were being very adverse towards the poor and homeless. I mean you had to pay to sit in a pew back then. So that’s why the Salvation Army was started. It’s almost like a mini reformation if ya think about it haha.

Thank you, finally had time to read the page.

Yes, it seems even what they refer to as sacramental is meant to be symbolic. So that's a different understanding, it is true.

One of these days I'm hoping to dig into similarities/differences on these kinds of beliefs (though I realize Protestants vary - maybe too much to make a coherent inquiry). But none I know deny the grace of God. It's just a question of comparing details. :)

Thank you for the info.
 
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Kajiki

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Thank you, finally had time to read the page.

Yes, it seems even what they refer to as sacramental is meant to be symbolic. So that's a different understanding, it is true.

One of these days I'm hoping to dig into similarities/differences on these kinds of beliefs (though I realize Protestants vary - maybe too much to make a coherent inquiry). But none I know deny the grace of God. It's just a question of comparing details. :)

Thank you for the info.
Yes this is all very true. Everything is "symbolic" in TSA it seems except the Bible of course. "Sola Scriptura" for days....

I do have a question now though. In the churches I've been to all believers are considered saints. What is all of this canonization of saints stuff? How does it work?
 
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☦Marius☦

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Yes this is all very true. Everything is "symbolic" in TSA it seems except the Bible of course. "Sola Scriptura" for days....

I do have a question now though. In the churches I've been to all believers are considered saints. What is all of this canonization of saints stuff? How does it work?

We also believe all true believers are saints, as is written. But when we refer to "The Saints" we refer to a group of people we generally recognize as having shown so much proliferation of faith in their life that we are almost 100% sure they were saved and we can therefore be sure that when we ask their intercession they are actually up there praying for us. That and they are models/ heroes if you will for us to mimic.
 
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Kajiki

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We also believe all true believers are saints, as is written. But when we refer to "The Saints" we refer to a group of people we generally recognize as having shown so much proliferation of faith in their life that we are almost 100% sure they were saved and we can therefore be sure that when we ask their intercession they are actually up there praying for us. That and they are models/ heroes if you will for us to mimic.
Thank you. And that makes a lot of sense. Like iron man for instance. Please forgive me if this simpleton analogy is blasphemous. He's technically a regular person but there is no doubt he is a hero. Everyone can be a hero but there is no doubt that he is one himself.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Yes this is all very true. Everything is "symbolic" in TSA it seems except the Bible of course. "Sola Scriptura" for days....

I do have a question now though. In the churches I've been to all believers are considered saints. What is all of this canonization of saints stuff? How does it work?
Not to ignore your question, but aluke essentially did. :)

It is kind of interesting to me, the process of canonization by the Church. But it starts by people who actually knew the person in life and recognize the holiness of the life they lived.

There are many, many, MANY saints who are with God, whose names we would never know in this life. We recignize that as well. :)
 
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ArmyMatt

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yes, the reason all believers can be called saints, it because we are all called to be Saints. my Patristics professor says in Church, we always address people according to their potential. this is why when we commune, we are always addressed as "servant/handmaiden of God" and such
 
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