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Questions for Synergists

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Skala, Apr 29, 2013.

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  1. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    I equivocated about nothing. That's your invention about my views.

    I was responding to your questions:
    There is no point in answering a false position when someone develops a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of a position - which is a straw man fallacy.

    Oz
     
  2. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    You are denying Jesus' omniscience with these words:
    A summary of Jesus’ omniscience is given under the heading of ‘the Son is recognized as God’ and ‘the attributes of Deity’ by evangelical theologian Henry C. Thiessen. He wrote:
    So Thiessen is convinced from the biblical evidence that Jesus did have the attribute of omniscience and did exercise it while on earth. But there is a condition: As a member of the Trinitarian Godhead, Jesus was not allowed to have independent exercise of his omniscience, but his omniscience was under the supervision of the Father.

    There are strong indicators in the NT that Jesus did have the attribute of omniscience, based on these Scriptures:
    [​IMG]Matthew 26:21-25, ‘And as they were eating, he said, “Truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me.” 22 And they were very sorrowful and began to say to him one after another, “Is it I, Lord?” 23 He answered, “He who has dipped his hand in the dish with me will betray me. 24 The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.” 25 Judas, who would betray him, answered, “Is it I, Rabbi?” He said to him, “You have said so”’. These verses demonstrate Jesus’ omniscience.
    [​IMG]Matthew 26: 31-35, ‘Then Jesus said to them, “You will all fall away because of me this night. For it is written, ‘I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.’ 32 But after I am raised up, I will go before you to Galilee.” 33 Peter answered him, “Though they all fall away because of you, I will never fall away.” 34 Jesus said to him, “Truly, I tell you, this very night, before the cock crows, you will deny me three times.” 35 Peter said to him, “Even if I must die with you, I will not deny you!” And all the disciples said the same’. These verses demonstrate Jesus’ omniscience.
    [​IMG]Luke 5:21-22, ‘And the scribes and the Pharisees began to question, saying, “Who is this who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God alone?” 22 When Jesus perceived their thoughts, he answered them, “Why do you question in your hearts?”’ These verses demonstrate Jesus’ omniscience.
    [​IMG]Luke 6:7-8, ‘And the scribes and the Pharisees watched him, to see whether he would heal on the Sabbath, so that they might find a reason to accuse him. 8 But he knew their thoughts, and he said to the man with the withered hand, “Come and stand here.” And he rose and stood there’. These verses demonstrate Jesus’ omniscience.
    [​IMG]Luke 9:46-47, ‘An argument arose among them as to which of them was the greatest. 47 But Jesus, knowing the reasoning of their hearts, took a child and put him by his side’. These verses demonstrate Jesus’ omniscience.
    [​IMG]Luke 11:17, ‘But he, knowing their thoughts, said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and a divided household falls’. This verse demonstrates Jesus’ omniscience.
    For an understanding of Jesus’ incarnation and omniscience, Phil 2:6-7 seems to have application:
    I recommend the article, “When did Jesus know?" by Daniel Wallace.

    Reference
    Thiessen, H C 1949. Introductory lectures in systematic theology. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

    Sincerely, Oz
     
  3. AndOne

    AndOne Deliver me oh Lord, from evil men

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    Props to OzSpen for post #325! I like it a LOT! :thumbsup:
     
  4. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    Thanks for your encouragement.:amen:
    Oz
     
  5. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    What do you do with,

    32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. (Mar 13:32 KJV)
     
  6. Hammster

    Hammster New Puritan Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    You'll have to explain why it's a straw man. But I know you won't.
     
  7. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    That was the reason for my longer post at #325 and I thought I had addressed this matter in my post, but it seems that it was not clear enough.

    These are the issues as I understand them:

    1. Since Jesus is fully God (and fully man) as a member of the Triune God, he has to be omniscient (all-knowing) as that is one of the essential attributes of God himself. Since Jesus is God himself, he is omniscient.
    2. There are many times when Jesus based what he said and did on his divine nature (I gave examples in #325). But there are other times when Jesus states something about himself that is based on his human nature (Mk 13:32 is one example). Scripture clearly demonstrates that Jesus may be identified according to both human and divine natures.
    3. Take 1 Cor. 2:8 as an example of this apparent paradox where the rulers of this age 'crucified the Lord of glory'. How could the omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient Lord God of glory be crucified? It's an oxymoron unless we understand that this is a statement from the perspective of Jesus' human nature.
    4. I, as an orthodox evangelical who has a high view of Scripture, understand the oneness of the three persons of the Trinity. In this oneness, they know all things (are omniscient). In his humiliation as a human being (see Philippians 2:6-7), God the Son did not use his divine attributes except when they are needed for his mediatorial work.
    5. Therefore, Jesus' omniscience while on earth was used in a very restricted way. That is what is happening with Mk 13:32 when Jesus' human nature does not know the day or the hour of his second coming.
    6. This is a mystery to us as human beings. How could the omniscient second person of the Trinity, while on earth, restrict the use of his divine attributes in such a way? Mystery it is, but it is a fact beyond dispute according to the biblical revelation, that Jesus is fully God but when speaking from his human nature, his omniscience is very restricted.
    7. Understanding Mark 13:32 is on a parallel with understanding 1 Cor 2:8. The human Lord of glory, who was fully God, was crucified. The human Jesus, who was fully God, did not know the time and hour of his second coming.
    8. We must not strip Jesus of his deity and omniscience when we don't understand how the human Jesus did not know the specifics about his return.
    9. However, those of a theological liberal persuasion, with a low view of Scripture, can easily conclude that here is a gross contradiction of Scripture in Mk 13:32. However, such a conclusion is based on a false understanding of the nature of the Trinitarian Lord God Almighty.
    I hope that may bring some clarity. If not, let's dialogue further.

    But I will say that our view of God has a massive impact on our understanding of Mark 13:32. It was A. W. Tozer who wrote,

    In Christ, Oz
     
  8. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    I've done it over and over on this forum when Calvinistic views have distorted or invented straw man logical fallacies about my Reformation Arminian position.

    "I know you won't" is a false allegation as I've done it over and over on CF. Why must you continue to make false allegations against me and my theological position?

    We can't have a reasonable conversation when you have such a bias against those (including me) who do not agree with some of your Calvinistic position and then with another poster I call him for use of a straw man argument.

    Oz
     
  9. Hammster

    Hammster New Puritan Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    So we are supposed to do a search of all of your posts and see where you've outlined these allegations?
    I didn't say that you haven't. I said that you wouldn't. Pretty accurate, I'd say.
    We can have a reasonable conversation when you stop equivocating.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2013
  10. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    It was a gross distortion.

    If you continue this kind of bullying tactic, I will not continue to engage with you on this topic.

    Oz
     
  11. Hammster

    Hammster New Puritan Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Okay. See edited post.
     
  12. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    We cannot have a reasonable conversation when you continue to bully me. Editing a post does not obliterate your bullying tactics towards me.

    Oz
     
  13. Hammster

    Hammster New Puritan Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    I've never considered you weaker. But if you think you are, I'll stop "bullying" you.

    Now, if you'll stop equivocating, maybe we can converse.
     
  14. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    You don't seem to have a clue about what bullying is and how you do it, for you to make that kind of comment.

    Bye,
    Oz
     
  15. Hammster

    Hammster New Puritan Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    If only you spent this much energy actually making arguments for something pertaining to this thread. You could have actually explained why the OP was a straw man.

    But for the record:

    a blustering, quarrelsome, overbearing person who habitually badgers and intimidates smaller or weaker people.
     
  16. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    The sort of repeated behaviour that can be considered bullying includes:


    • Keeping someone out of a group (online or offline)
    • Acting in an unpleasant way near or towards someone
    • Giving nasty looks, making rude gestures, calling names, being rude and impolite, and constantly negative teasing.
    • Spreading rumours or lies, or misrepresenting someone (i.e. using their Facebook account to post messages as if it were them)
    • Mucking about that goes too far
    • Harassing someone based on their race, sex, religion, gender or a disability
    • Intentionally and repeatedly hurting someone physically
    • Intentionally stalking someone
    • Taking advantage of any power over someone else like a Prefect or a Student Representative.
    Bullying can happen anywhere. It can be in schools, at home, at work, in online social spaces, via text messaging or via email. It can be physical, verbal, emotional, and it also includes messages, public statements and behaviour online intended to cause distress or harm (also known as cyberbullying). But no matter what form bullying takes, the results can be the same: severe distress and pain for the person being bullied.
    Types of bullying(source: National Safe Schools Framework )
     
  17. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Hi Oz,

    I'm going to have to disagree with you here. I think our understanding of the Trinity is going to be the issue. You said several times Jesus is fully God, what exactly do you mean by that?
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2013
  18. Hammster

    Hammster New Puritan Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    If only you'd put that much effort into explaining why the OP was a straw man.
     
  19. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    I mean exactly what I said. As a member of the Trinune Godhead, Jesus is fully God.

    What did Jesus mean when he said the following? 'Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am"' (John 8:58 ESV).

    Jesus was saying that he is telling us the truth, e.g. "Truly, truly".

    In Greek, if Jesus was wanting to claim only that he existed before Abraham, it would have been straightforward for him to say, 'Before Abraham was, I was'. He did not say that.

    Instead, he used the ego eimi of John 8:24 and 28 to mean, "Before Abraham was born, I am". If there are doubts about whether ego eimi means that in vv. 24 and 28, there are no doubts here.

    How did the Jews respond after Jesus made the statement of John 8:58? So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple (John 8:59).


    That the Jews picked up stones to threaten to kill Jesus, presupposes that they understood that Jesus was making what they considered was a blasphemous claim to deity.

    This Jesus (the Word) is the one who is 'in the beginning' (John 1:1). He is the eternal God. In John 8:58, Jesus demonstrates his superiority over Abraham, 'Before Abraham WAS, I AM'. John is clear about Jesus stating his deity in this passage.

    It is an Arian notion that Jesus is not God and the Arian view was defeated at the Council of Nicea, AD 325. However, Arianism still raises its head - even on this Forum.


    Oz
     
  20. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    If only you would quit your bullying tactics.

    Oz
     
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