Questions for Orthodox Jews, which reveal the Messiah:

Yeshua HaDerekh

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Sincere questions.
1. Why would Jews being enemies of the gospel be for benefit to non Jew's
2. To whom are you referring as the fathers of Judaism?

Because they did not believe, they were broken off while some gentiles were grafted in as Paul says. Who do you think were "the fathers"??
 
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BABerean2

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I am going to respectfully disagree. Christians have made tremendous efforts to bring Jews to believe in Jesus, proclaiming the gospel to them constantly. They, the majority, choose not to believe the gospel.

There are very few organizations dedicated to taking the Gospel to modern Orthodox Jews in the United States. "Jews for Jesus", and "Word of Messiah", are two that my wife and I have supported for several years.

Please tell us the organizations that you have supported financially, which are dedicated to taking the Gospel to modern Orthodox Jews.


.
 
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ralliann

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It is not my answer. It is Paul's answer.

Throughout the Book of Romans Paul refers to two different groups of Israelites, one faithful, and one not.

Paul describes the children of the flesh, and the children of the promise in Romans 9:6-8.

He talks about the "remnant" in Romans 9:27.

He refers to the Baal worshipers, and the faithful remnant of 7,000 at the beginning of chapter 11, in Romans 11:1-5.

We also find Paul preaching Christ to the Jews in Rome in the last chapter of the Book of Acts. Some Jews believed, and some did not.


Act 28:16 And when we came to Rome, the centurion delivered the prisoners to the captain of the guard: but Paul was suffered to dwell by himself with a soldier that kept him.
Act 28:17 And it came to pass, that after three days Paul called the chief of the Jews together: and when they were come together, he said unto them, Men and brethren, though I have committed nothing against the people, or customs of our fathers, yet was I delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.
Act 28:18 Who, when they had examined me, would have let me go, because there was no cause of death in me.
Act 28:19 But when the Jews spake against it, I was constrained to appeal unto Caesar; not that I had ought to accuse my nation of.
Act 28:20 For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
Act 28:21 And they said unto him, We neither received letters out of Judaea concerning thee, neither any of the brethren that came shewed or spake any harm of thee.
Act 28:22 But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against.
Act 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
Act 28:24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
Act 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
Act 28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
Act 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
Act 28:29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.
Act 28:30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
Act 28:31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

In the passage above we have another reference of the relationship between the two different groups of Israelites, one group believing, and another group not, and the Gospel being taken to the Gentiles.

.
I agree with most of what you say here. I just honestly am trying to understand why this saves some of them is all. I do have an idea of something said in the old covenant to Israel, but I am not sure it fits the context though.

2 1/2 tribes could not rest in their inheritance until their brethren had also received theirs. They were to fight with them and help them.

Jos 1:12 And to the Reubenites, and to the Gadites, and to half the tribe of Manasseh, spake Joshua, saying,
13 Remember the word which Moses the servant of the LORD commanded you, saying, The LORD your God hath given you rest, and hath given you this land.
14 Your wives, your little ones, and your cattle, shall remain in the land which Moses gave you on this side Jordan; but ye shall pass before your brethren armed, all the mighty men of valour, and help them; {armed: Heb. marshalled by five }
15 Until the LORD have given your brethren rest, as he hath given you, and they also have possessed the land which the LORD your God giveth them: then ye shall return unto the land of your possession, and enjoy it, which Moses the LORD’S servant gave you on this side Jordan toward the sunrising.

Heb 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38 (Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. {provided: or, foreseen }
 
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ralliann

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Because they did not believe, they were broken off while some gentiles were grafted in as Paul says. Who do you think were "the fathers"??
I think the fathers are Abe, Isaac and Jacob. But like with the other poster I still don't understand why being enemies of the Gospel saves some. I guess it must be me.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Because they did not believe, they were broken off while some gentiles were grafted in as Paul says. Who do you think were "the fathers"??
I think the fathers are Abe, Isaac and Jacob. But like the other poster I still don't understand why being enemies of the Gospel saves some. I guess it must be me.
Some verses:

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon
search "the fathers" "our fathers"

Jer 44:17
“But we will certainly do whatever has gone out of our own mouth, to burn incense to the queen of heaven and pour out drink offerings to her, as we have done, we and our fathers, our kings and our princes, in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. For then we had plenty of food, were well-off, and saw no trouble.
Lam 5:7
Our fathers sinned and are no more,
But we bear their iniquities.
Mic 7:20
You will give truth to Jacob And mercy to Abraham,
Which You have sworn to our fathers From days of old.

Mat 23:30
saying, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
Jhn 6:31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'
Jhn 6:58
This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”
Rev 2:17
Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give that person a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to the one who receives it.
1Co 10:1
For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers,[fn] that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea,
Heb 1:1
Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets,
=========================
Ezr 1:5
Then the heads of the fathers' houses of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests and the Levites, with all whose spirits God had moved, arose to go up and build the house of the LORD which is in Jerusalem.
Eze 18:2 “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:
‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children's teeth are set on edge'?

Luk 1:17
and he will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared.”
Jhn 6:58
This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread[fn] the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”
Jhn 7:22
Moses gave you circumcision (not that it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and you circumcise a man on the Sabbath.
Act 13:32
And we bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers,
2Pe 3:4
They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.”
 
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eleos1954

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Questions like that will have very little effect on a religious Jew. (Orthodox, Conservative or Reform) The rabbis have had almost 2000 years to formulate and hone their replies to deflect the answers you think are obvious.

Agree ... simply ... they do not believe Jesus as Messiah.

2 Chronicles 36:15-16

The LORD, the God of their fathers, sent word to them again and again by His messengers, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place; but they continually mocked the messengers of God, despised His words and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, until there was no remedy.


Acts 7:51-52

"You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did. "Which one of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? They killed those who had previously announced the coming of the Righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become;

Pray for them to come to the light.
 
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ralliann

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Some verses:

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon
search "the fathers" "our fathers"
I don't think the context fits, but maybe I am wrong? How I view the two covenants made with Abraham, as inheritances.
The one (portion) made in Genesis 15 in this world, this life, is IMO to the fourth Generation. And the covenant made in Genesis 17 the second (portion) established in Isaac (the first generation) the next world, the next life. Israel having promise of two portions, therefore being the firstborn of the nations among the nations promised to Abraham.

Jesus came preaching the kingdom of heaven (the second portion).
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Because they did not believe, they were broken off while some gentiles were grafted in as Paul says. Who do you think were "the fathers"??
ralliann said:
I think the fathers are Abe, Isaac and Jacob. But like the other poster I still don't understand why being enemies of the Gospel saves some. I guess it must be me.
Where the Hebrew Jewish Israelites had their fathers under the OC, the NC Christians have their "fathers", aka the "ECFs"

What Did The ECF Believe About End Times

What did the Early Church Fathers believe concerning eschatology? Please post your findings.

Who really cares what the ECF's had to say?
Their theology was wrong in many areas, there were many different interpretations of the same scriptures and in many cases they had next to NO access to bounce their ideas off of other great theological minds...So what gives? why the heavy leanings for understanding? Essentially the scriptures they used and the ones we use have remained unchanged, less some poor translations. It does not seem plausible to hang ones salvation on an early 3rds or 4th century interpretation of the same scripture we have NOW.
Did the ECFs really know/understand the Scriptures better?
Who really cares what the ECF's had to say?
This poster stated that the ECF's knew the scriptures far better than we do today.
So I would like to ask if this is true and if their interpretations of the Scriptures could have been faulty, perhaps because of bad translations or because of some of them not being well versed in the Hebrew/Greek of the Bible to determine correct interpretations.
So the question is, did they or didn't they understand/know the Scriptures as well as later Christians all the way up to today, know/understand the Scriptures.
Church Fathers - Wikipedia

The Church Fathers, Early Church Fathers, Christian Fathers, or Fathers of the Church were ancient and influential Christian theologians and writers. There is no definitive list.[1] The era of these scholars who set the theological and scholarly foundations of Christianity largely ended by AD 700 (John of Damascus died in 749 AD, Byzantine Iconoclasm began in 726 AD).[citation needed]

In the past, the Church Fathers were regarded as authoritative and more restrictive definitions were used which sought to limit the list to authors treated as such. However, the definition has widened as scholars of patristics, the study of the Church Fathers, have expanded their scope.[2]

Apostolic Fathers
Main article: Apostolic Fathers
The Apostolic Fathers were Christian theologians who lived in the 1st and 2nd centuries AD, who are believed to have personally known some of the Twelve Apostles, or to have been significantly influenced by them.[5] Their writings, though popular in Early Christianity, were ultimately not included in the canon of the New Testament once it reached its final form. Many of the writings derive from the same time period and geographical location as other works of early Christian literature that did come to be part of the New Testament, and some of the writings found among the Apostolic Fathers' seem to have been just as highly regarded as some of the writings that became the New Testament.
 
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Dave-W

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Where the Hebrew Jewish Israelites had their fathers under the OC, the NC Christians have their "fathers", aka the "ECFs"
Wrong. Paul talks about the customs of the fathers in Acts 28. None of the ECFs were in the faith yet, let alone become “fathers.” Most had not even been born.

The fathers Paul talked about was from Judaism.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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LittleLambofJesus said:
Where the Hebrew Jewish Israelites had their fathers under the OC, the NC Christians have their "fathers", aka the "ECFs"
Wrong. Paul talks about the customs of the fathers in Acts 28. None of the ECFs were in the faith yet, let alone become “fathers.” Most had not even been born.

The fathers Paul talked about was from Judaism.
Hello Dave.......I stand corrected then.........
 
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ralliann

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Most religious Jews are conversant in the New Testament. They know far more about Christianity than many believe. And they’re aware most Christians can’t say the same about Judaism or the Old Testament.
That is why I enjoy listening to the debates with Dr. Michael Brown ( Messianic Jew) and them. He brings a lot of knowledge to the subject.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Most religious Jews are conversant in the New Testament. They know far more about Christianity than many believe. And they’re aware most Christians can’t say the same about Judaism or the Old Testament.
I would even say that about a lot of former Christians who turned Atheist [or to other Religions]. I have heard that many Jews are also Atheist [if that is even possible].
Not sure if anyone here remembers the ole GA board.
This is what 1 former Christian said concerning the shut down of it:

Where is the general apologetics forum?

R.I.P.
Shut down permanently. Too many of the faithful were being shown the light of reason (deconverted)
No, that was it. although not exactly expressed in those words. They said it was shut down because their was too much tension and controversy. Now one can only start GA arguments with a single nonbeliever vs numerous christian believers. Apparently they realized that GA wasn't working when their was at least more then nonbeliever scrutinizing their arguments and pointing out their fallacies. Its much easier to tag team when the other side is isolated and alone.

I think its pretty sleazy.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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LaBèlla said:
Most religious Jews are conversant in the New Testament. They know far more about Christianity than many believe. And they’re aware most Christians can’t say the same about Judaism or the Old Testament.
That is why I enjoy listening to the debates with Dr. Michael Brown ( Messianic Jew) and them. He brings a lot of knowledge to the subject.
Isn't there also debates between Messianic Judaism vs non Jewish/Gentile Christians?
Some links from google search:

https://www.google.com/search?clien...hUKEwjHiovJ8unjAhUFbawKHZVZCNEQ4dUDCAo&uact=5

Wats the difference between Messianic Jews and Orthodox Jews.
i just want to know wat is the difference between Messianic Jews and Orthodox Jews

i have no clue and wish to know
Difference between Messianic Jews and Christians

The term Messianic Jew, means a Jewish person who believes in Jesus/Yeshua the Messiah.

A Christian is a person (Jew or Gentile) who believes in Jesus the Christ.

Christ is based on the Greek term, Christos. Christos means Annointed One.

Messiah is based on the Hebrew term, Moshiach. Moshiach means Annointed One.

So, Messianic Judaism is based on the Jewish culture, and is evangelistic to the Jewish people.

Christianity is mainly Gentile in culture. Very few Christian churches have any effort to share the gospel with the Jewish people. Those Christian churches who have a desire to see the Jewish people come to the Messiah, partner in some way with a Jewish mission organization.
 
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ralliann

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ralliann

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Isn't there also debates between Messianic Judaism vs non Jewish/Gentile Christians?
Some links from google search:

https://www.google.com/search?clien...hUKEwjHiovJ8unjAhUFbawKHZVZCNEQ4dUDCAo&uact=5

Wats the difference between Messianic Jews and Orthodox Jews.

Difference between Messianic Jews and Christians

The term Messianic Jew, means a Jewish person who believes in Jesus/Yeshua the Messiah.

A Christian is a person (Jew or Gentile) who believes in Jesus the Christ.

Christ is based on the Greek term, Christos. Christos means Annointed One.

Messiah is based on the Hebrew term, Moshiach. Moshiach means Annointed One.

So, Messianic Judaism is based on the Jewish culture, and is evangelistic to the Jewish people.

Christianity is mainly Gentile in culture. Very few Christian churches have any effort to share the gospel with the Jewish people. Those Christian churches who have a desire to see the Jewish people come to the Messiah, partner in some way with a Jewish mission organization.
Michael Brown vs Rabbi Tovia Singer - YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0XQmbeGEZ8
Another between Michael brown and Gary Demar...
Dr. Michael Brown v Gary DeMar debate: “Has the Church Replaced Israel
 
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ralliann

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Wrong. Paul talks about the customs of the fathers in Acts 28. None of the ECFs were in the faith yet, let alone become “fathers.” Most had not even been born.

The fathers Paul talked about was from Judaism.
Abe, Isaac and Jacob however were not the fathers of Judaism.
De 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
 
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Dave-W

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Abe, Isaac and Jacob however were not the fathers of Judaism.
De 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
Correct. They did not hand down “traditions.” Moses did, but I believe the fathers Paul referred to was rabbis Hillel and Shammai from the first century bc.
 
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ralliann

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Correct. They did not hand down “traditions.” Moses did, but I believe the fathers Paul referred to was rabbis Hillel and Shammai from the first century bc.
They were sectarians in their customs. I believe they were keeping the traditions of the Elders which were received universally and historically (ie without dispute).
 
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ralliann

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Wrong. Paul talks about the customs of the fathers in Acts 28. None of the ECFs were in the faith yet, let alone become “fathers.” Most had not even been born.

The fathers Paul talked about was from Judaism.
I agree with you concerning the particular passage of acts. However concerning Fathers of the Ekklesia, Paul was one of the earliest of the fathers.
2Ti 1:2 To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
Tit 1:4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus

As for traditions, The apostolic Fathers said we are to stand fast in the ones they taught.

2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
2Th 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

Redemption from vain traditions

1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
 
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Douggg

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There are very few organizations dedicated to taking the Gospel to modern Orthodox Jews in the United States. "Jews for Jesus", and "Word of Messiah", are two that my wife and I have supported for several years.

Please tell us the organizations that you have supported financially, which are dedicated to taking the Gospel to modern Orthodox Jews.


.
irrelevant.

I spread the gospel and more, directly, by communicating with Jews on the internet at their sites, and their you tube videos.

Ask any Jew you want, if he/she has heard of Jesus?

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
 
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